Umm guys...the government is being naughty

[yesitsloaded]

Exactly, and harassing our own citizens because of their religion is not going to help accomplish that.

[Manedwolf]

I thought that most crimes in this country were by young black males, statistically speaking

Against other young black males. Irrelevant. The radicalized young Muslim males just want to kill a lot of Americans. We keep ignoring the attempts, from the SUV driven over students on a campus, to the pizza guys near Fort Dix, to the guy with a shotgun in a mall in Utah.

So a fiery sermon is not allowed anymore? What about Christians that preach about 9/11 being our fault for allowing homosexuality? I guess they are terrorists too. See Amendment 1

Christians do not tell people that they will get 72 virgins if they kill themselves while slaying infidels for allah. Christians do not preach violence. Radical Muslims do. And don't even do the asinine "b..b..but abortion clinic bomb!", that was a statistical anomaly, not something that happens every single day like suicide bombers. Next!

[Paddy]

The overwhelming majority of Muslims are not pro or anti US.  They mind their own business and live their lives.

How do we communicate that to the bonehead currently occupying the Whitehouse?

Nevermind. His purpose is neither to 'fight terrorism' nor protect the United States.  GWB was placed in the Oval Office to further the aims of global corporatism. 

Prove me wrong.

[yesitsloaded]

Christians do not preach violence. Radical Muslims do.

Pat Robertson comes to mind.

"As Christians we are disposed to kindness, generosity, affection, and humility in our dealings with others. As militants we are disposed to use physical force against our enemies. How can we reconcile these two apparently contradictory philosophies? The answer of course, is to purge malice, bitterness, and vengeance from our hearts."

Sam Bowers sounds a lot like a terrorist to me.

On April 19, 1995, McVeigh drove the truck to the front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building just as its offices and day-care center opened for the day. Prosecutors said McVeigh strode away from the truck after he ignited a timed fuse from the front of the truck. At 9:02 a.m., a massive explosion collapsed the north half of the building. In the explosion, 168 people died and 850 more were injured.[12] The 168th victim, rescue worker Rebecca Anderson,[13] died after the initial blast, when it is believed that the back of her head was struck by a piece of debris that had fallen from the building.[14] 19 of the victims were small children in the day-care center, which was on the ground floor of the building. (Later, McVeigh did not express remorse for these "collateral damage" deaths, but he said he might have chosen a different target if he had known the day-care center was there.[15])

According to the Oklahoma City Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism (MIPT), more than 300 buildings were damaged, and more than 12,000 volunteers and rescue workers were involved in rescue, recovery, and support operations.

If thats not a Christian terrorist, I don't know what is. I don't deny that there are Muslims out there that would love to kill me for being an American, I just don't think that we should punish all other members of their faith to find them. There are a bunch of fugitives on the loose right now that consider themselves Christian, but there is no need to bug every church to try and find them.

[Perd Hapley]

McVeigh was a Christian now? 

I thought his last words had to do with him being the master of his soul. 

[Bogie]

I suspect that a lot of the people screaming about civil rights abuses will be wearing little flag lapel pins, and screaming about "Why didn't Bush stop it!" after the next attack.
 

[Manedwolf]

McVeigh = one terrorist, not even a "Christian cause", just a nut. YEARS AGO.

Muslim extremist suicide bombers = EVERY FREAKING DAY.

I wish people would stop trotting out the tired canard of ONE nutcase and ONE abortion-clinic bomber and try to compare it to what animals with machetes and bombs strapped to their chests are doing every freaking day. It's really getting old.

[yesitsloaded]

Muslim extremist suicide bombers = EVERY FREAKING DAY.

Not here. Most of our mass casualties are angry white kids shooting up schools or crazy white guys that can build bombs. Once again I not only say this is a bad way to root out arab terrorists in this country, I also offer a solution. Follow the money. Use now uncommon sense. Oh, and don't infringe upon American citizens rights.

[Len Budney]

Face it - if a buncha Southern Baptists had run meat-guided cruise missiles into New York, I'd _also_ welcome the FBI staking out various dunkin'zones...

Lots of people feel the same way, apparently. But it's too bad; it's the antithesis of the premise on which our country was founded.

--Len.

[Len Budney]

I suspect that a lot of the people screaming about civil rights abuses will be wearing little flag lapel pins, and screaming about "Why didn't Bush stop it!" after the next attack.

If so, they deserve the same fate as any whining slave. Bush has done nothing so far to deter the next attack; he's made it more likely. But expecting him to deter the next attack also makes it more likely: sitting back and expecting someone else to be your daddy is as good as painting a target on your back. Protecting freedom is everyone's job. Most citizens are too busy keeping up on the latest adventures of famous tramps, and most politicians are too busy seeking money, power and re-election.

--Len.

[Mabs2]

You know, I might feel a little bit more charitable toward all their rights and stuff if a few less people had been dancing in the streets when New York got bombed by meat-guided cruise missiles...

Some did, sure. But you imply that all, or a majority, were. That's talk-radio BS. Among other counterexamples, the Ayatollah Imami Kashani declared the attack an "act of terrorism that can only be condemned by all Muslims." In Tehran, 70,000 Iranian soccer soccer fans observed a minute of silence in honor of the 9/11 victims. In addition:

Iranians held a candlelight vigil in Tehran on 9/18.


As did Bangledeshi muslims.


Round that out with a couple Palis.


And a muslim woman from I don't know where.


We now return you to your regularly-scheduled ignorant hate-mongering, already in progress.

--Len.

Thank you for posting this.

[ilbob]

while most Muslims in the US are not terrorists, a lot of them financially support known terrorist organizations. we need to dry up the funds for these groups first, and most of the fund raising centers on mosques.

it is almost a certainty that there are rats in every mosque, and this does not bother me in the least.

most of the terrorist recruiting that goes on in the US is done through the mosques. that is just plain fact. it makes some sense to understand the scope of the problem.

by and large, Muslims in the US have not been real vocal about their non-support of these terrorists. you have to really look to find it. most just don't want to get involved one way or the other.

[Manedwolf]

by and large, Muslims in the US have not been real vocal about their non-support of these terrorists. you have to really look to find it. most just don't want to get involved one way or the other.

Yes. When there's percieved judgement against a Muslim for suspicious behavior (the flying imams), CAIR throws a fit and starts flinging lawsuits.

When there's an act of terrorism...the silence is deafening.

And that's a real problem.

[ilbob]

by and large, Muslims in the US have not been real vocal about their non-support of these terrorists. you have to really look to find it. most just don't want to get involved one way or the other.

Yes. When there's percieved judgement against a Muslim for suspicious behavior (the flying imams), CAIR throws a fit and starts flinging lawsuits.

When there's an act of terrorism...the silence is deafening.

And that's a real problem.

I am not sure it is a problem so much as just the way it is.

I don't see a whole lot of condemnation of terror coming from the vatican either.

[Perd Hapley]

Bush has done nothing so far to deter the next attack; he's made it more likely. But expecting him to deter the next attack also makes it more likely: sitting back and expecting someone else to be your daddy is as good as painting a target on your back. Protecting freedom is everyone's job. 

Len,

Respectfully, you're getting caught up in your rhetoric, sir.  Bush has done nothing to deter the next attack?  You can't think of one thing he's done that has been effective in fighting terrorism?  I really doubt that.  Secondly, you and I both expect a President to take certain, appropriate measures to prevent terrorism, whatever those may be.  Expecting him to do his job is not sitting back and expecting him to be our daddy. 

[Perd Hapley]

On April 19, 1995, McVeigh drove the truck to the front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building just as its offices and day-care center opened for the day. Prosecutors said McVeigh strode away from the truck after he ignited a timed fuse from the front of the truck. At 9:02 a.m., a massive explosion collapsed the north half of the building. In the explosion, 168 people died and 850 more were injured.[12] The 168th victim, rescue worker Rebecca Anderson,[13] died after the initial blast, when it is believed that the back of her head was struck by a piece of debris that had fallen from the building.[14] 19 of the victims were small children in the day-care center, which was on the ground floor of the building. (Later, McVeigh did not express remorse for these "collateral damage" deaths, but he said he might have chosen a different target if he had known the day-care center was there.[15])

According to the Oklahoma City Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism (MIPT), more than 300 buildings were damaged, and more than 12,000 volunteers and rescue workers were involved in rescue, recovery, and support operations.

If thats not a Christian terrorist, I don't know what is.

Can you please indicate what makes you think that McVeigh was a Christian, claimed to be one, or acted out of Christian religious impulses? 

[Thor]

On April 19, 1995, McVeigh drove the truck to the front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building just as its offices and day-care center opened for the day. Prosecutors said McVeigh strode away from the truck after he ignited a timed fuse from the front of the truck. At 9:02 a.m., a massive explosion collapsed the north half of the building. In the explosion, 168 people died and 850 more were injured.[12] The 168th victim, rescue worker Rebecca Anderson,[13] died after the initial blast, when it is believed that the back of her head was struck by a piece of debris that had fallen from the building.[14] 19 of the victims were small children in the day-care center, which was on the ground floor of the building. (Later, McVeigh did not express remorse for these "collateral damage" deaths, but he said he might have chosen a different target if he had known the day-care center was there.[15])

According to the Oklahoma City Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism (MIPT), more than 300 buildings were damaged, and more than 12,000 volunteers and rescue workers were involved in rescue, recovery, and support operations.

If thats not a Christian terrorist, I don't know what is. I don't deny that there are Muslims out there that would love to kill me for being an American, I just don't think that we should punish all other members of their faith to find them. There are a bunch of fugitives on the loose right now that consider themselves Christian, but there is no need to bug every church to try and find them.

In all actuality, Jose Padilla is often theorized to be one of the unknown accomplices, "John Doe #2", therefore, giving McVeigh ties to radical Islam. This hasn't been proven, but the pictures sure look like him.
http://www.glennbeck.com/news/06132002.shtml
There are more sites out there, feel free to do a search on Padilla & OKC.

[Bogie]

Guys, remember a few years back when a certain terrorist organization was giving the UK fits?

Yup. I'm talking about the IRA. They had maybe 200 "active" members. And they received a lot of money from overseas. From where? The US... And not from the government either - An Irish neighborhood bar would have someone show up and do a collection "for the boys." And if you didn't drop in, well...

Well, when they dried that crap up, the provos started actually negotiating.
 

[ilbob]

Guys, remember a few years back when a certain terrorist organization was giving the UK fits?

Yup. I'm talking about the IRA. They had maybe 200 "active" members. And they received a lot of money from overseas. From where? The US... And not from the government either - An Irish neighborhood bar would have someone show up and do a collection "for the boys." And if you didn't drop in, well...

Well, when they dried that crap up, the provos started actually negotiating.

The IRA started negotiating after the SAS killed off most of their leadership.

[Bogie]

AND when they ran out of money with which to fund their stuff.

Sad thing is, a lot of the terrorist funding comes from "uninvolved" individuals... Their hands aren't bloody. Just their wallets.
 

[Len Budney]

Bush has done nothing so far to deter the next attack; he's made it more likely. But expecting him to deter the next attack also makes it more likely: sitting back and expecting someone else to be your daddy is as good as painting a target on your back. Protecting freedom is everyone's job. 

Respectfully, you're getting caught up in your rhetoric, sir.  Bush has done nothing to deter the next attack?

NOTHING. He hasn't increased our border security, so it's as easy as ever for terrorists to get into the country. He hasn't done anything to harden targets inside the US, such as water facilities, power plants, etc. He has made airlines less safe by federalizing airport security: it's already legendary how abysmal the TSA is at detecting simulated weapons and explosives (or, just hypothetically mind you, my pocket knife). He hasn't promoted the two things that would help--namely, a free market in security and an armed populace. And finally, the federal government itself has stated that Al Qaeda's operational capacity is roughly as great as it was on 9/11. HE HAS DONE NOTHING to prevent another attack inside our borders.

Overthrowing the Taliban didn't make any difference; Bin Ladin and pals had to move, but they're still out there and operational. Invading Iraq didn't help; Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 OR Al Qaeda. The organization "Al Qaeda in Iraq" is a completely distinct organization, that didn't even exist prior to 9/11. The radicals are still radical, but many more muslims hate us much more than before.

In every way conceivable, Bush has made things worse instead of better.

So no, it wasn't a slip of the tongue, and I wasn't carried away. I meant exactly what I said.

--Len.

[Bogie]

What gets me is the number of folks who figure that the enemy of their enemy is a friend. They haven't figured out, however, that he is also THEIR enemy.
 
There's almost a religious fervor going on... Hate Bush, Support Islamic Nutjobs.
 
Yeah, the Republicans were in office. And yeah, Republicans _and_ Democrats voted to do things. And now everyone is pointing all sorts of fingers at the Republicans. But that does NOT mean that the terrorists won't mind killing Democrats too... These guys hated us when Ford was in office. They hated us when Carter was in office. They hated us when Reagan was in office. They hated us when Bush was in office. They hated us when Clinton was in office. And they're hating us while Bush is in office. And they'll hate us, and try to kill us, when Hillary is in office. Because they'll see her as a weak woman, and consider us weak for electing her. That's their culture. So she's either going to have to do something really gnarsty (likely) or just roll over.
 
I see nuclear war in the middle east in 3-4 years.
 

 

[Thor]

Bogie, I suspect sooner. Iran has enough centrifuges to produce fissionable material now. It's all a matter of time. Lord forbid that Musharraf in Pakistan gets overthrown or one of the other Asian countries supplies viable nuclear weapons to Iran.

[Len Budney]

...That's their culture...

Just wanted to highlight that bit. Folks like to say, "It's not Muslims I hate--it's the bad Muslims!" But their remarks always leave you wondering where the "good" Muslims are--they sure sound thin on the ground.

In this thread, even realizing that Iran expressed sympathy with the US on every level, from the street, to professional soccer players, to the Ayatollahs, doesn't even leave an impression. We still prattle about a nuclear energy program which the non-proliferation treaty that they signed says they're allowed to have, and for which they've bent over backwards to allow international oersight. It just leaves one wondering. Are we looking for an excuse to smoke some wogs here, or what?

--Len.

[CAnnoneer]

It seems this thread can win a prize on "blown out of proportion". What did the gov do? Make some lists, potentially for monitoring purposes. BFD. When they open Roosevelt-like internment camps, then you would have a point in protesting. Right now, there is nothing. Also, just putting somebody's name on a list in some office in gov does not constitute harassment. If you are against profiling, then that's a different discussion entirely, and it would deserve its own thread.

One of the things I find both silly and unproductive is when people that already hate the gov so eagerly jump on the criticism side, even if the particular measure is otherwise beneficial to the nation. The idea that the gov is evil, corrupt, wasteful, inefficient, and obtrusive in its ENTIRETY and in EVERY action it takes is extremely discrediting to its proponents.