Author Topic: Umm guys...the government is being naughty  (Read 19579 times)

Bogie

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2007, 02:29:35 PM »
Okay, Len...

Their "culture" doesn't even let women drive.
 
Their "culture" includes folks getting stoned to death for what we would just write off as trailer park behavior.
 
Their "culture" overall looks upon attempts to negotiate in good faith as a weakness, and weaknesses must be exploited, or they themselves are weak.
 
Their "culture" will dismiss pretty much anything a woman president does - and yeah, I do think it's been a mistake to have Condi Rice as Secretary of State - because the _men_ who run their culture do not take her seriously. In fact, they assume that we are weak. Now go back and reread the previous paragraph.
 
Yeah, things are different here in the US, but you know something? There's a buncha folks screaming as loud as they can to "the faithful" that they need to have the same situation here. By any means necessary. And some of 'em want to kill us. It may only be 1%, or even 0.1%, but that's enough to worry about.
 
What do you recommend we do? Wait until they drive a propane tanker into a highschool basketball game? And then send a sternly worded letter via a sacrificial envoy?
 
We also need to separate "religion" and "culture" here. Islam as a religion don't go there and do that... But the folks who are wrapping themselves in the religion so that they have an excuse to harm others - that's a different story.
 
So yeah, there's bad ones. Are you saying that there aren't?
 
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Len Budney

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2007, 04:50:16 PM »
So yeah, there's bad ones. Are you saying that there aren't?

There definitely are bad ones. I'm just noticing that folks who say they only hate "bad" Muslims never seem to be able to come up with examples of "good" ones. In practice, the bad ones are all of them. Indeed, that's exactly the point of your post: you cite pervasive aspects of their culture as proof that they're "bad," but that certainly doesn't leave much room for "good" ones. It's just as if one of them said, "I only hate 'bad' Americans--the ones that eat fast food or shop at Walmart."

Another thing that we mustn't overlook: mistreatment of women is bad, but it doesn't justify slaughtering tens of thousands of them. The ones who deserve to be slaughtered are the terrorist murderers, and there are at most a few thousand of those out of a world population of a billion Muslims. If there were 100,000 Muslim terrorists in the world, that would still mean exactly 99.99% of them are not terrorists. Your rhetoric suggests that you hate considerably more than 0.01% of all Muslims.

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Thor

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2007, 05:52:39 PM »
Len, it's been suggested that there are at least 10% (and that's a conservative estimate, from what I understand. It could be as high as 25%.), of the Muslim population that follow the radical side of Islam that wish death to America. 10% of 1.2 BILLION is a pretty significant number.
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Len Budney

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2007, 05:59:07 PM »
Len, it's been suggested that there are at least 10% (and that's a conservative estimate, from what I understand. It could be as high as 25%.), of the Muslim population that follow the radical side of Islam that wish death to America. 10% of 1.2 BILLION is a pretty significant number.

Yes, it's one hundred and twenty million. Such an asinine claim is self-refuting. If five times the population of Canada is out trying to kill us, it would be pretty hard to miss. There'd be a trail of carnage pointing the way.

Where they probably get that number is by counting anyone who objects to the US invading whoever the hell they want to. If so, they're under-counting by a few billion or so; most of the world feels that way. But that doesn't make them terrorists, nor fair game for extermination.

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Bogie

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2007, 06:52:31 PM »
Okayfine - so where do all the folks who like to dance around and shoot AKs in the air and chant "Death to the Great Satan!" while teaching their children how to wear Semtex underwear come from?
 
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2007, 08:11:01 PM »
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What did the gov do? Make some lists, potentially for monitoring purposes. BFD. When they open Roosevelt-like internment camps, then you would have a point in protesting. Right now, there is nothing.
Thats what the Jes thought too when they signed the lists.
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so where do all the folks who like to dance around and shoot AKs in the air and chant "Death to the Great Satan!" while teaching their children how to wear Semtex underwear come from?
They don't live here. They exist in a few places around the globe where they can't bother us without crossing our border. Border security is the only thing that stops this crap.
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Bogie

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2007, 08:43:53 PM »
Which doesn't stop it.
 
Why?
 
Because Johnny Jihad probably doesn't have any sort of record. He's coming to the US, where he's put down that he's going to work in his cousin's rug shop (okay, stereotyping, but hey... there's a whole lotta rug merchants...). Is there a reason to keep him out?
 
Or is there only a reason AFTER he manages to kill a bunch of folks?
 
It'd be a real trip if one of these churches manages to get a tour group of Johnny Jihad Juniors over here, and they all scatter and go do their things...
 
And if border security DOES try to stop this sort of thing, folks start screaming about discrimination... MAKE UP YOUR MINDS!
 
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yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2007, 10:02:47 PM »
I'll would believe you if there was one instance of a homegrown Muslim suicide bomber in this country, but there isn't.
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Because Johnny Jihad probably doesn't have any sort of record. He's coming to the US, where he's put down that he's going to work in his cousin's rug shop (okay, stereotyping, but hey... there's a whole lotta rug merchants...). Is there a reason to keep him out?
 
Or is there only a reason AFTER he manages to kill a bunch of folks?
Who is Johnny Jihad? Does he live in a racist fantasy world with Robby Cracker ,Paco Beaner, Joe Darky, and Chen the Chink?
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Bogie

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2007, 12:11:05 AM »
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Homegrown muslim suicide bomber

Well, not quite, but more than a few shooters... And one very credible incident where a dumbass nutjob was possibly steered....

But now I'm HIGHLY irritated...
 
Well, you're the guy using the (contrived, cuz I ain't never heard 'em...) mainstream ethnic slurs... And considering that I've lived side-by-side with ALL of the groups which you targeted, if I hadn't heard 'em, well, then you just made 'em up... Lemme guess... Sammy Suburbanite? Or are YOU Johnny Jihad?
 
What gets me is that MOST followers of Islam are NOT out to get us....
 
But YOU and a few other folks are bound and determined to DEFEND the nutjobs who are. And at the same time, to fan the flames...
 
Now, since I obviously am not capable of understanding your outstanding logic, would you please, using short words and all that other crap, explain to me, and the rest of us potential victims, why we should just sit back and act as shrapnel fodder?
 
And could you explain, so that the rest of us poor ignorant bastards can understand, why you hate us so much?
 
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De Selby

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2007, 01:47:09 AM »
Ah, the blanket statements about "their culture" as in Islam, which is a religion, not a culture.  But anyway, where to start?

In the first place, religion is protected in America.  We don't like to single people out because of their religious beliefs, and that's exactly what this program does.  Imagine if they started mapping out the homes of Mormons in an attempt to combat child molestation and incest-there would be a righteous outcry over the outrageous level of ignorance and intolerance such an operation would entail.  But the same thing happens to Muslims and goes unnoticed, because most people don't like Muslims.  It's a sad day when our rights depend on what we like and don't like.

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Their "culture" doesn't even let women drive.

There is only one country that has such a law, and it is a loyal US ally.  So no, there is no "their culture" that doesn't let women drive.  That's completely false-the idea that women can't drive has absolutely zero religious foundation in the religion.

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Their "culture" includes folks getting stoned to death for what we would just write off as trailer park behavior.
 

Ah yes, so the few Arabs (muslim and non Muslim) who still do this get to represent all the Muslims, and the billion other Muslims who don't do this can't be representative why?


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Their "culture" overall looks upon attempts to negotiate in good faith as a weakness, and weaknesses must be exploited, or they themselves are weak.
 

From what did we draw this conclusion about "Their culture"?  Because this looks like a good description of American foreign policy to some.  "Kick butt and take names", "abolish the UN", etc etc.  So I'd like to know how you decided that this was a feature of all Islam.

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Their "culture" will dismiss pretty much anything a woman president does - and yeah, I do think it's been a mistake to have Condi Rice as Secretary of State - because the _men_ who run their culture do not take her seriously.

This is almost comical-there have been women presidents, prime ministers, and vice presidents in every single Muslim country where there are elections.  So please explain to me how, when given the chance to vote, Muslim majority countries uniformly elect women to higher positions than do Americans, if this is true?

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We also need to separate "religion" and "culture" here. Islam as a religion don't go there and do that... But the folks who are wrapping themselves in the religion so that they have an excuse to harm others - that's a different story.

The theory that Bin Laden is killing people because he thinks his religion commands him to do so is simply absurd-the terrorists wrap themselves in politics to justify doing things for their co-religionists; they are politicians, not religious leaders, and they don't even pretend to be doing religious things.  They argue very basic political grievances-they kill us, we kill them, etc etc. 

It is not a religious war, and never has been.  But some people are doing their best to make it into one, because that's a whole lot easier than believing that the enemies are people who actually think somewhat like us.  That would just be too difficult-the comic book character model of international relations is much more palatable.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

anygunanywhere

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2007, 05:19:38 AM »
Ah, the blanket statements about "their culture" as in Islam, which is a religion, not a culture.  But anyway, where to start?


To a muslim, Islam is their culture.

To us westerners, for the most part, our identity, the facade that we wear each day is not derived from our religion. We identify ourselves by our professions or some other aspect of our daily lives.

Our way of identifying ourselves and our culture is derived from our civility and belief in either freedom of religion or freedom from religion. There are vastly more examples of our living our culture and tolerating muslims and their culture than their tolerating ours.

Look at the predominantly muslim countries. Islamic (sharia?) law is the law of the land, not anywhere near the western practice of natural law.

I have muslim friends. I respect them for who they are and for what they do. In my experience a muslim is either your dedicated friend or your worst enemy. There is no in between. With this thought in mind, when either TSHTF or TEOTWAWKI happens, I doubt very seriously if those same muslim friends will be sitting around a campfire with me singing kumbaya.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2007, 08:38:55 AM »
Who is Johnny Jihad? Does he live in a racist fantasy world with Robby Cracker ,Paco Beaner, Joe Darky, and Chen the Chink? 


It's pretty obvious he was referring to a terrorist, and was not using that as a racial slur.  OBVIOUS.   rolleyes
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Manedwolf

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2007, 08:45:24 AM »

Yes, it's one hundred and twenty million. Such an asinine claim is self-refuting. If five times the population of Canada is out trying to kill us, it would be pretty hard to miss. There'd be a trail of carnage pointing the way.

Wrong. They're PATIENT. 9/11 took over a decade to plan.

You're talking of a culture where an insult that occured 300 years ago between families is still cause for strife as it if happened yesterday.

They do have patience, and we'd do well to remember that.

Also, some defenders are missing a fundamental point, that to the extremists, religion and politics are the same thing.

Barbara

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #63 on: November 11, 2007, 08:50:28 AM »
Bogie, do you actually *know* any Muslims? Like, personally, not just see them seeing stories about them on Fox.

My guess is no.

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With this thought in mind, when either TSHTF or TEOTWAWKI happens, I doubt very seriously if those same muslim friends will be sitting around a campfire with me singing kumbaya.

That's too bad. Mine will. Or more likely providing covering fire. Smiley

Maybe yours aren't really friends?

Len Budney

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #64 on: November 11, 2007, 08:53:23 AM »
Yes, it's one hundred and twenty million. Such an asinine claim is self-refuting. If five times the population of Canada is out trying to kill us, it would be pretty hard to miss. There'd be a trail of carnage pointing the way.

Wrong. They're PATIENT. 9/11 took over a decade to plan.

Gotcha. There are 120,000,000 Muslims out there itching to kill Manedwolf, patiently plotting, biding their time... Paranoid much?  rolleyes

But even if you believe that, you're not doing anything effective about it. Instead of wetting your pants and squealing like a girl for GWB to save your sorry butt by slaughtering Arabs and taking away your liberty, cowboy up and get an MBR, ya sissy!

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Tuco

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #65 on: November 11, 2007, 09:21:08 AM »


Instead of wetting your pants and squealing like a girl for GWB to save your sorry butt by slaughtering Arabs and taking away your liberty, cowboy up and get an MBR, ya sissy!

--Len.


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Manedwolf

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #66 on: November 11, 2007, 09:51:38 AM »
Yes, it's one hundred and twenty million. Such an asinine claim is self-refuting. If five times the population of Canada is out trying to kill us, it would be pretty hard to miss. There'd be a trail of carnage pointing the way.

Wrong. They're PATIENT. 9/11 took over a decade to plan.

Gotcha. There are 120,000,000 Muslims out there itching to kill Manedwolf, patiently plotting, biding their time... Paranoid much?  rolleyes

But even if you believe that, you're not doing anything effective about it. Instead of wetting your pants and squealing like a girl for GWB to save your sorry butt by slaughtering Arabs and taking away your liberty, cowboy up and get an MBR, ya sissy!

--Len.


Whatever. I suppose you'd rather install footbaths in all public bathrooms at taxpayer expense, ban ham and bacon from all US stores, allow Sharia law to supercede US law if they want it to, (hey, honor killings and stoning for adultery, you bet!) and beg the extremists not to bother us anymore. I'm sure the 80,000 people calling for a global Islamic Caliphate in a stadium in Pakistan will listen. Actually, if we give in to enough demands, and pay the tax, we could aspire to be a dhimmi state. I'm sure the Dems would be all for that, actually.

I would like the government to see to it that people I know are not blown up, yes. People like you would have doubted that they could fly airliners into buildings, once upon a time.

As for my own actions? All I can do is be ready in defense, namely, that if someday a jihadist opens fire in a public area I'm at, I'll stop them before they kill too many people, or if suicide bomber runs into a mall or other venue I happen to be in, hopefully I'll get them before they can push the button. That's about all a private citizen can do, other than vote for policy makers who don't have their heads up their posteriors and who recognize the threat that radical Islam poses.

I would like for the world to remain in the 21st century and move forward, not to descend to the 4th century level of strife, backwardness, filth and brutality that the extremists wish to spread upon it. I don't think that's too unreasonable.

anygunanywhere

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2007, 10:05:20 AM »
Bogie, do you actually *know* any Muslims? Like, personally, not just see them seeing stories about them on Fox.

My guess is no.

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With this thought in mind, when either TSHTF or TEOTWAWKI happens, I doubt very seriously if those same muslim friends will be sitting around a campfire with me singing kumbaya.

That's too bad. Mine will. Or more likely providing covering fire. Smiley

Maybe yours aren't really friends?

Do you really know your muslim friends?

There are lots of posts on this thread giving SWAGs regarding the number of muslims that are out to kill us. I am of the belief that the peaceful muslims only make up 10% of the world population with the other 90% just biding their time - reference the post that mentioned their patience.

Most Christians believe that the Bible is the word of God and that it should be taken literally. The same goes for the Koran, and there are way more muslims that are fanatical about this. How many demonstrations have you seen where Christains violently protest a crucifix in a glass of urine?

The MSM even in their attempts to paint Islam as a peaceful religion do not hide tha facts. The koran states, the facts are, that all infidels must convert to Islam or die.

Pretty obvious to me.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2007, 10:19:28 AM »
But even if you believe that, you're not doing anything effective about it. Instead of wetting your pants and squealing like a girl for GWB to save your sorry butt by slaughtering Arabs and taking away your liberty, cowboy up and get an MBR, ya sissy!

It is the gov's job to provide national security, not mine, at least not yet. Overall, I got no problem with the particular aspect of WoT discussed here. Yeah, there are some parts that are potentially troublesome if taken much further, but that's why you have courts and congressional oversight. The system is not broken, not yet at least.

The idea of "fire the gov, pick up a rifle, man the border to stop terrorists" is depressingly naive and beyond preposterous. A rifleman cannot stop manned aerial torpedos from crashing into civilian targets nor collect intelligence to warn.

anygunanywhere

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2007, 10:32:06 AM »


That's too bad. Mine will. Or more likely providing covering fire. Smiley

Maybe yours aren't really friends?

How many mosque services have you attended where the imams preach peace and denounce the terrorists?

I admit, I have never been to one. I have been to many Christian services where I was reminded of what Christianity teaches.

I never recall any time where I was told to kill muslims.

If even the mythical 10% is applied to the mosques then I am pretty safe in saying that this just proves the insistence that Islam is not a religion of peace but is a culture that preaches death to infidels. The meat guided cruise missiles proves the point.

Len Budney

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2007, 11:36:18 AM »
Whatever. I suppose you'd rather install footbaths in all public bathrooms at taxpayer expense...

I'm noticing a theme: whenever you talk about Ron Paul, Arabs, or anything else, you make outrageously ridiculous statements.

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I would like the government to see to it that people I know are not blown up, yes.

By killing the 120,000,000 Muslims out there who haven't actually done anything to anyone, but who you just know are biding their time waiting to slaughter you and all you hold dear.

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People like you would have doubted that they could fly airliners into buildings, once upon a time.

If by that you mean that I wouldn't have committed genocide to avert hypothetical risks, sure. But you're more than just wrong here. I acknowledge that one or more Muslims may well set off a nuke somewhere, someday. I do not consider genocide or other mass slaughter to be the appropriate countermeasure, though--even if it would avert the tragedy, which it wouldn't.

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I would like for the world to remain in the 21st century and move forward, not to descend to the 4th century level of strife, backwardness, filth and brutality that the extremists wish to spread upon it. I don't think that's too unreasonable.

So lets get this straight. You advocate killing the 120,000,000 Muslims you claim are secretly plotting murder (but haven't done anything yet) in the name of advancing civilization? You've gone Carlin one better. Fighting war for peace is like f--king for virginity. But committing savagery for civilization is even more so.

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Manedwolf

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2007, 11:40:04 AM »
Let's just point out what Len is doing repeatedly.

I say "extremists". He makes that out as if I said "all Muslims" with his rebuttal.

I say "radical Islam". He makes that into that I said "Islam".

You know, that particular strawman is getting really old, and really annoying. Knock it off, Len, or all of your arguments aren't worth spit.


De Selby

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2007, 11:50:21 AM »
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I admit, I have never been to one. I have been to many Christian services where I was reminded of what Christianity teaches.

I never recall any time where I was told to kill muslims.

And in all the Muslim services and events and articles and papers I've ever read, I have never once been told that my religion commands me to kill people for not being Christian.

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The koran states, the facts are, that all infidels must convert to Islam or die.

This is just patently false-not even close.  It's not in there.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2007, 11:50:32 AM »
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Who is Johnny Jihad? Does he live in a racist fantasy world with Robby Cracker ,Paco Beaner, Joe Darky, and Chen the Chink?


It's pretty obvious he was referring to a terrorist, and was not using that as a racial slur.  OBVIOUS.   rolleyes
Nope. He was using a religious term to describe a Muslim in a general sense along the belief that they all want to kill us. If he meant any terrorist black or white, Jew or Muslim, he would have just said terrorist. If any of you were Muslims they you would be crying bloody murder over this instead of backing the old "it's good for the country" crap. For the record I am not a Muslim, and I have an ethnically Jewish girlfriend. I have seen pictures of what happens when we let the government monitor a group of people for the alleged safety of society. A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist, but looking for a terrorist by bugging a community because of their beliefs and skin color is agaist everything this country was founded on.
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The koran states, the facts are, that all infidels must convert to Islam or die.
Do you know what the bible says about those that have homosexual sex or bestiality? I guess we should round up the Jews again now too? Hitler never had a problem with Jewish terrorism, so I guess it works huh?  angry
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De Selby

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2007, 11:59:26 AM »

Whatever. I suppose you'd rather install footbaths in all public bathrooms at taxpayer expense, ban ham and bacon from all US stores, allow Sharia law to supercede US law if they want it to, (hey, honor killings and stoning for adultery, you bet!) and beg the extremists not to bother us anymore. I'm sure the 80,000 people calling for a global Islamic Caliphate in a stadium in Pakistan will listen.

Please just provide one remotely plausible scenario for this to happen-how does this global caliphate get created and dominate the US? 

This fear of "sharia in the US!" is pure hype.  It has no basis in reality, and is not a real threat.  The only purpose it serves is to justify prejudice like recording the locations of every Muslim in America and watching them "just in case." 


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All I can do is be ready in defense, namely, that if someday a jihadist opens fire in a public area I'm at, I'll stop them before they kill too many people, or if suicide bomber runs into a mall or other venue I happen to be in, hopefully I'll get them before they can push the button. That's about all a private citizen can do, other than vote for policy makers who don't have their heads up their posteriors and who recognize the threat that radical Islam poses.

But why are you fixated on Muslims with this?  Why not pick a real concern to face, like, say, the very real possibility that a disgruntled white American gun owner will raid the mall and shoot as many as he can in a suicide mission? 

There hasn't been a single Al Qaeda attack on a mall or similar location in America.  In contrast, there have been more attacks on schools and malls committed by American (non Muslim) gun owners than I can count.  So why don't you focus your preparedness on the more real and obvious threat?

Seems to me like you're fixating on a group that presents no realistic threat to you because they're different, and ignoring the proven threat because they're more similar to you. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."