Author Topic: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases  (Read 8479 times)

Balog

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SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« on: June 16, 2014, 12:03:26 PM »
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-1493_k5g1.pdf

Just getting into it, but doesn't not appear good for us so far.
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Balog

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2014, 12:11:19 PM »
Also, note that the swing vote was a justice appointed by Reagan.

"But but but you should've voted for McCain because of SCOTUS nominations!!!!"
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

HankB

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2014, 12:38:04 PM »
. . . "But but but you should've voted for McCain because of SCOTUS nominations!!!!"
With a GOP POTUS there's a chance of getting a decent SCOTUS pick; certainly no guarantee.

On the other hand, with Obama . . . well, you figure the odds.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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Balog

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2014, 12:42:46 PM »
With a GOP POTUS there's a chance of getting a decent SCOTUS pick; certainly no guarantee.

On the other hand, with Obama . . . well, you figure the odds.

Tell me with a straight face that John "Gunshow Loophole, get the free speech money out of politics" McCain would've appointed someone who'd vote pro 2A / pro liberty. Tell me Mitt "Signed an AWB, designed Obamacare" Romney would have. Please, I need a good laugh today.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

French G.

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2014, 01:26:50 PM »
They might not have been Thomas and Scalia but they sure wouldn't be Kagan and Sotomayor. Those two are like Obama HPV, the gift that keeps on giving.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

AJ Dual

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2014, 01:30:09 PM »
Meh... even a dream-team SCOTUS packed with Thomas clones might not have ruled in favor of us on this one.

Considering the broad use of the ICC was upheld because "Grain grown in a state, sold in a state, and consumed all entirely within a state still affects grain that might have been grown, sold, and might be consumed in other states" etc. I don't see the "straw purchase whether or not the other person is able to pass NICS" going away unless GCA '68 and the whole FFL system and everything that came with on the 4473 form is stricken. That's a pretty simple clear reading of the law, and I don't see some broader constitutional challenge to GCA '68 or any ammendments made thereafter being made.

Quote
Nothing in the statute suggests that these legal duties may be wiped away merely because the actual buyer turns out to be legally eligible to own a gun. Because the dealer could not have lawfully sold the gun had it known that Abramski was not the true buyer, the misstatement was material to the lawfulness of the sale.

Even the dissent in the footnotes seems to be playing games parsing the meanings of "sell" and "buyer" in the English language.

Kind of surprised the whole case reached the SCOTUS, because to my reading the whole argument falls down to, "GCA '68, NICS, and the 4473 doesn't apply because neither of us were criminals or prohibited persons and because uh reasons..."

While I guess I'd like to see fed.gov control over firearms ever loosened every time it's challenged, it seems to me that the thrust of the case was Abramski was asking for various parts of 922(xyz) in the CFR to not say what they say.

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Balog

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2014, 01:52:15 PM »
They might not have been Thomas and Scalia but they sure wouldn't be Kagan and Sotomayor. Those two are like Obama HPV, the gift that keeps on giving.

I don't buy it. Given his record of pandering I could see McCain especially nominating Sotomayor herself. Dude was my Senator for many years, you grievously underestimate how much he gets off on screwing conservatives.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

roo_ster

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2014, 02:21:26 PM »
I don't buy it. Given his record of pandering I could see McCain especially nominating Sotomayor herself. Dude was my Senator for many years, you grievously underestimate how much he gets off on screwing conservatives.

I recall the 2000 GOP primaries.  I think Balog is correct and McCain would do it for the satisfaction of beating on conservatives.
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RevDisk

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2014, 02:33:13 PM »
Meh... even a dream-team SCOTUS packed with Thomas clones might not have ruled in favor of us on this one.

Everything AJ said. Second Amendment doesn't say much about the realm of reselling to third parties. It basically covers acquiring, possessing and using. Not disposal.

Not saying I like the outcome, but honestly, for RKBA community, it'd be better fit for Congress to pass a law giving better guidance than try to go through the courts with this particular issue.
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KD5NRH

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2014, 02:52:44 PM »
Meh... even a dream-team SCOTUS packed with Thomas clones might not have ruled in favor of us on this one.

No, but a court of Scalia clones would pay off the national debt from pay-per-view, with each one playing devil's advocate to the other eight, and doing it quite eloquently at that.

brimic

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2014, 03:46:49 PM »
Does anyone have a cliff's notes version of the outcome?
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MechAg94

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2014, 04:03:07 PM »
The problem I have seen with Republican nominations is they won't fight hard for their own nominations so they try too hard to pick someone both sides will be okay with or one who has no track record to criticize. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

RevDisk

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2014, 04:03:49 PM »
Does anyone have a cliff's notes version of the outcome?

Straw purchasing is still illegal, even if straw purchasing for someone that could legally buy a firearm.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

brimic

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2014, 05:54:34 PM »
Straw purchasing is still illegal, even if straw purchasing for someone that could legally buy a firearm.
That won:t lead to serious federal abuses =|
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
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HankB

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2014, 06:35:19 PM »
Tell me with a straight face that John "Gunshow Loophole, get the free speech money out of politics" McCain would've appointed someone who'd vote pro 2A / pro liberty. Tell me Mitt "Signed an AWB, designed Obamacare" Romney would have. Please, I need a good laugh today.
McCain or Romney would have given us "coin flip" odds - maybe 50/50, maybe a little worse, maybe a little better - of getting a decent SCOTUS nominee.

In any coin flip, Obama's coin would have had two tails on it - he would have seen to that.

Straw purchasing is still illegal, even if straw purchasing for someone that could legally buy a firearm.
It's not clear to me how .gov established this was a straw purchase and not a gift, or how the guy didn't decide later on to sell the gun he'd bought to his uncle - were there incriminating emails or incriminating tapped phone conversations that .gov got hold of where the two men planned this nefarious crime?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 06:41:28 PM by HankB »
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Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

T.O.M.

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2014, 08:16:07 AM »
Straw purchasing is still illegal, even if straw purchasing for someone that could legally buy a firearm.

The take away from all of this is:
1.  Don't lie on a .gov form.
2.  If buying with the intention of giving away, don't tell anyone.
3.  If buying as a gift, a gift card may be the better option (my father did this with a LGS when he bought me a Smith Bodyguard back in 1994.  Paid the guy the full amount, but I was the "purchaser" for the NICS check.)
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

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Fly320s

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2014, 08:45:58 AM »
It's not clear to me how .gov established this was a straw purchase and not a gift, or how the guy didn't decide later on to sell the gun he'd bought to his uncle - were there incriminating emails or incriminating tapped phone conversations that .gov got hold of where the two men planned this nefarious crime?

According to one article I read, the uncle wrote a check to the buyer before the gun was purchased.  The memo line of the check said "Glock 19." 

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brimic

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2014, 08:59:25 AM »
  The memo line of the check said "Glock 19." 



 :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
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Fly320s

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2014, 09:03:31 AM »
Laws restricting free men from owning property.

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
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HankB

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2014, 09:55:54 AM »
Does anyone have a cliff's notes version of the outcome?
OK, now I see what happened . . . I think:

As I understand it, SCOTUS upheld a conviction for lying on a 4473 to make a "straw purchase." The evidence is that the original buyer checked the box stating that HE was the actual buyer of the gun, and signed the form. The problem is in the course of investigating something else, a check written to him by his uncle for $400 turned up with "Glock 19" written in the memo section - and the date was BEFORE he bought the pistol. This was evidence that he was buying the gun for his uncle, using his uncle's money.

So as I understand it, the problem wasn't his buying a gun and transferring it to his uncle (via another FFL, by the way) but for lying on the form - and with written evidence (his uncle's dated check with "Glock 19" written on it) .gov decided to prosecute.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

brimic

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2014, 09:59:12 AM »
OK, now I see what happened . . . I think:

As I understand it, SCOTUS upheld a conviction for lying on a 4473 to make a "straw purchase." The evidence is that the original buyer checked the box stating that HE was the actual buyer of the gun, and signed the form. The problem is in the course of investigating something else, a check written to him by his uncle for $400 turned up with "Glock 19" written in the memo section - and the date was BEFORE he bought the pistol. This was evidence that he was buying the gun for his uncle, using his uncle's money.

So as I understand it, the problem wasn't his buying a gun and transferring it to his uncle (via another FFL, by the way) but for lying on the form - and with written evidence (his uncle's dated check with "Glock 19" written on it) .gov decided to prosecute.

Of all the things to prosecute in this country...... They could start at the top and have decades of real crime to prosecute before they have to go after the average Joe On The Street for a made up crime.

"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

tokugawa

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2014, 10:08:05 AM »
Of all the things to prosecute in this country...... They could start at the top and have decades of real crime to prosecute before they have to go after the average Joe On The Street for a made up crime.

 Didn't you get the memo?    Laws are for the little people.

roo_ster

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2014, 10:12:20 AM »
OK, now I see what happened . . . I think:

As I understand it, SCOTUS upheld a conviction for lying on a 4473 to make a "straw purchase." The evidence is that the original buyer checked the box stating that HE was the actual buyer of the gun, and signed the form. The problem is in the course of investigating something else, a check written to him by his uncle for $400 turned up with "Glock 19" written in the memo section - and the date was BEFORE he bought the pistol. This was evidence that he was buying the gun for his uncle, using his uncle's money.

So as I understand it, the problem wasn't his buying a gun and transferring it to his uncle (via another FFL, by the way) but for lying on the form - and with written evidence (his uncle's dated check with "Glock 19" written on it) .gov decided to prosecute.

It is stuff like this that lead me to hold zero respect for gov't functionaries anymore.  What is the objective of the "straw purchaser" laws?  To make it harder for criminals to get firearms.  The LE critters had discretion to not arrest, the DA had discretion not to charge, and the judge had discretion to toss it out.  Yet none took a step back and looked at the objective.  They saw paperwork baloney and got hard-ons to railroad some regular folk.

They do not hold any moral authority, they just have a bunch of folks willing to use force and with various levels of immunity for their actions.  If they were on fire, I would not deign to piss on them, just reflect on justice.  Revoke their immunity, warm up the tar, and stock up on rope.
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roo_ster

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Sergeant Bob

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2014, 11:01:10 AM »
It is stuff like this that lead me to hold zero respect for gov't functionaries anymore.  What is the objective of the "straw purchaser" laws?  To make it harder for criminals to get firearms.  The LE critters had discretion to not arrest, the DA had discretion not to charge, and the judge had discretion to toss it out.  Yet none took a step back and looked at the objective.  They saw paperwork baloney and got hard-ons to railroad some regular folk.

They do not hold any moral authority, they just have a bunch of folks willing to use force and with various levels of immunity for their actions.  If they were on fire, I would not deign to piss on them, just reflect on justice.  Revoke their immunity, warm up the tar, and stock up on rope.

Well put!
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zahc

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Re: SCOTUS rules on straw purchases
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2014, 12:03:34 PM »
Quote
The problem is in the course of investigating something else, a check written to him by his uncle for $400 turned up with "Glock 19" written in the memo section - and the date was BEFORE he bought the pistol. This was evidence that he was buying the gun for his uncle, using his uncle's money. 

Serious question: would that have been illegal if the original purchaser did not transfer the gun, and kept it? In other words, is it illegal to furnish money to someone so they can go buy a gun?

Second serious question: it is still legal to gift a firearm to a person who otherwise legally may own it, correct?

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