LNG Powered Locomotives

[drewtam]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324539404578342540494619344.html
http://www.bnsf.com/employees/communications/bnsf-news/2013/march/2013-03-06-a.html

Search google news and there are lots of other articles about this press release from BNSF with further details dug out from the 2 major players (Cat/EMD & GE)

An update to the year old thread.
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=34162.0


As I said in the previous thread, I am not free to comment too much, for reasons that have not changed.

[Fitz]

Let me be clear.

Unless it's a green technology that is a money pit, I don't wanna have anything to do with it.

MORE GOV FUNDING FOR RECYCLED FART FUEL!

[AZRedhawk44]

I hear solar-powered locomotives are the next big thing.  Solyndra's former CEO is gearing up.

[French G.]

I want a nuclear train. From submarines we have small and safe reactors. A train is big enough to carry one in a rupture-proof housing. Water tender and re-condense the steam. Zero emission, hippies!!

[roo_ster]

Let me be clear.

Unless it's a green technology that is a money pit, I don't wanna have anything to do with it.

MORE GOV FUNDING FOR RECYCLED FART FUEL!

To that end:
Don't Stop Renewable Energy Subsidies. Just Make Them Better.
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2013/03/dont_stop_renewable_energy_sub.php

Summary: We just have not been shoveling them money with the right technique.




Green line is load, Blue line is unicorn farts wind energy production.  In words: when we need it, it is not there.  When we don;t need it, it is raring to go.  It is as regular as night & day and is a factor of night & day in Texas.

[AZRedhawk44]

What wind farm is generating 1GW to 4GW of power?

I do love how wind output peaks at night while peak power consumption occurs during daytime... but these types of graphs are always misleading when they have multiple Y-axis values.  The blue wave should be a tenth of the size of the green wave, or it should have pirates riding on it or something.

[41magsnub]

I want a nuclear train. From submarines we have small and safe reactors. A train is big enough to carry one in a rupture-proof housing. Water tender and re-condense the steam. Zero emission, hippies!!

I want a nuclear bus.

[Fitz]

What wind farm is generating 1GW to 4GW of power?

I do love how wind output peaks at night while peak power consumption occurs during daytime... but these types of graphs are always misleading when they have multiple Y-axis values.  The blue wave should be a tenth of the size of the green wave, or it should have pirates riding on it or something.

I don't know much about it, so please excuse if I'm being ignorant, but can't the nighttime output be put into batteries for the daytime?

Are there any wind power schemes that are workable? I remember them working pretty well in SimCity :-D

note: this does not mean i'm in favor of subsidizing this *expletive deleted*it. Especially when , if the gov would quit being wishy washy about it, new nuke power would largely solve a lot of our issues.

[French G.]

Yeah, wind power can work, especially for small communities in BFE. Sure there are storage means, but it is just the  way wind is rammed through(with our money) as our savior. Local community wants the turbines, they go up with private money, great, part of the solution. Subsidy? Not so much.

[Fitz]

Yeah, wind power can work, especially for small communities in BFE. Sure there are storage means, but it is just the  way wind is rammed through(with our money) as our savior. Local community wants the turbines, they go up with private money, great, part of the solution. Subsidy? Not so much.

I see.

How feasible is it to use, say, for a single house in conjunction with solar?

[drewtam]

I see.

How feasible is it to use, say, for a single house in conjunction with solar?

This is directed toward remote telecom installations, but with a range of 100W to 10kW installed capacity, I'm sure you can imagine the possibilities.

http://www.cat.com/cda/files/2592977/7/Cat-Hybrid-Power-for-Telecom-Applications.pdf

THE CAT TELECOM HYBRID PACKAGE AND EQUIPMENT
We have outlined the Cat telecom hybrid package and product configurations below to illustrate the products
that are available to our telecom customers. Keeping in mind that each customer has unique specifications,
your Cat Dealer will work with you to customize your hybrid power system to your exact needs. Hybrid power
system sizes range from 100 W to 10 kW of telecommunications site load. They also include options for extreme
environments, as well as a variety of budgets.

CAT TELECOM HYBRID PACKAGE PRODUCT CONFIGURATIONS
System Type
Diesel-Battery
Solar-Diesel-Battery
Diesel-Battery-Wind
Solar-Diesel-Battery-Wind
Solar-Battery


In place of diesel, there is also the option of a natural gas engine.

[Gewehr98]

Glad to see BNSF working on it.

LNG-fueled diesels have risks, of course, but since natural gas prices have plummeted in the last year or so, it's a natural progression to make use of a cheaper fuel.

LNG for over-the-road diesel trucks?

Dunno if the NHTSA would sign off on that, with the potential of trucks going all explodey and stuff. 

[roo_ster]

I don't know much about it, so please excuse if I'm being ignorant, but can't the nighttime output be put into batteries for the daytime?

Are there any wind power schemes that are workable? I remember them working pretty well in SimCity :-D

note: this does not mean i'm in favor of subsidizing this *expletive deleted*. Especially when , if the gov would quit being wishy washy about it, new nuke power would largely solve a lot of our issues.

Small scale, sure.  Large scale, not so much.  Cheaper just to build coal-fired plants to cover when the wind ain't a-blowing.  ERCOT multiplies the wind power potential power production by 8.7% to get the likely output form them when folks actually need it.  So, effective output of a wind farm is less than 10% of its rating.

I once pulled the leg of this guy who asked the same question.  I said that they stored the energy in a great big disk out in West Texas, the size of downtown Dallas. Made to exacting specifications and enclosed in a sealed room at near-vacuum, the power would go into 100% efficient electric motors that started the disk a-spinning.  Faster & faster it went, building up potential energy up to an ungawdly RPM.  When the wind died down and they needed power, the motors were switched over to super-efficient generators that braked down the speed of the disk.  Sadly the technique hasn't spread because Big Oil holds the patents.

Yes, I was a being a bastard.

[Scout26]

LNG-fueled diesels have risks, of course, but since natural gas prices have plummeted in the last year or so, it's a natural progression to make use of a cheaper fuel.

Emphasis mine.  When something is cheaper, people find a way to use it.  


Also Batteries are a poor means of storing electricity.  IIRC, (And Birdman will correct me), but the best a battery can do is store (and latter transmit (between 20-40% of the incoming power.  And I can't find the XKCD comic that lists the potential energy output of a pound of Solar panel vs Gasoline vs Uranium.  

[Nick1911]

There is no energy crisis; nuclear solved it.  Energy problems are political, not technical.

[MillCreek]

Rooster, I am intrigued by your vacuum-packed flywheel with maglev bearings and wish to subscribe to your energy newsletter!

[TechMan]

I hear solar-powered locomotives are the next big thing.  Solyndra's former CEO is gearing up.

That may have some traction.....

[Scout26]

Thanks Nick !!!

[Gewehr98]

Wind-powered locomotives.   

[Marnoot]

Wind-powered locomotives.  

[AJ Dual]

I want a nuclear bus.

It's been done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPpBGsFddao

[41magsnub]

It's been done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPpBGsFddao

I do believe that is what I was referring to...   

[Scout26]

I bet I can get the Obama DOE to give me a multi-million dollar grant....

[French G.]

I see.

How feasible is it to use, say, for a single house in conjunction with solar?

Very. My neighbors did it, partly because they are retired lefties with money to burn, partly because the power company's quote to get power the literal last mile to them was jaw-dropping.
Neat house, they did lots of passive solar, good insulation. Big sun tracking Pv panel, another Pv panel at the bottom of the hill to pump their spring water, solar water panel, and then a wind turbine. I got to see their battery and inverter set-up, about 30 big deep cycle batteries. I don't remember the output rating of any of it, but they had plenty of power. The problem was their wind turbine on the 100ft tower. It survived a recorded 103mph gust. It did not survive others, several times ending up in a pile. The first time it crashed I think it was crappy bolts and fatigue. The other times? I just don't think people knew how windy that spot is. They still seem to have plenty of power without the wind power.

Now, the downside is cost, no way they recover it and call it economical. The footer for the wind turbine tower was 27yds of concrete. That's 3 trucks delivered over 60 miles of mountain and up2 miles of crappy driveway. The crane that came out to work on it every time it failed was also expensive, several hundred/hour. All the equipment $$$.  

I'm pretty sure you can do personal wind cheaply, hopefully I get the chance to try it.


ETA, home power from wind or solar is doable, but not economic at current commercial energy prices. Pretty priceless when the lights go out though.

[AJ Dual]

Very. My neighbors did it, partly because they are retired lefties with money to burn, partly because the power company's quote to get power the literal last mile to them was jaw-dropping.
Neat house, they did lots of passive solar, good insulation. Big sun tracking Pv panel, another Pv panel at the bottom of the hill to pump their spring water, solar water panel, and then a wind turbine. I got to see their battery and inverter set-up, about 30 big deep cycle batteries. I don't remember the output rating of any of it, but they had plenty of power. The problem was their wind turbine on the 100ft tower. It survived a recorded 103mph gust. It did not survive others, several times ending up in a pile. The first time it crashed I think it was crappy bolts and fatigue. The other times? I just don't think people knew how windy that spot is. They still seem to have plenty of power without the wind power.

Now, the downside is cost, no way they recover it and call it economical. The footer for the wind turbine tower was 27yds of concrete. That's 3 trucks delivered over 60 miles of mountain and up2 miles of crappy driveway. The crane that came out to work on it every time it failed was also expensive, several hundred/hour. All the equipment $$$.  

I'm pretty sure you can do personal wind cheaply, hopefully I get the chance to try it.


ETA, home power from wind or solar is doable, but not economic at current commercial energy prices. Pretty priceless when the lights go out though.

I think the horizontal ground-level "eggbeater" style wind turbines lose a lot of efficiency, but they make up for it in maintainability for the home owner.

Getting destroyed by storms is a big factor in both wind and solar rarely recouping their construction cost and energy, especially when .gov subsidy is removed from any equations.