Author Topic: Screaming beards strike again.  (Read 9727 times)

yesitsloaded

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Screaming beards strike again.
« on: August 23, 2008, 09:19:35 AM »
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,408644,00.html


JAKARTA, Indonesia   Hundreds of Christian theology students have been living in tents since a mob of angry Muslim neighbors stormed their campus last month wielding bamboo spears and hurling Molotov cocktails.

The incident comes amid growing concern that Indonesia's tradition of religious tolerance is under threat from Islamic hard-liners.

In talks since the attack, the Arastamar Evangelical School of Theology has reluctantly agreed to shut its 20-year-old campus in east Jakarta, accepting an offer this week to move to a small office building on the other side of the Indonesian capital.

"Why should we be forced from our house while our attackers can walk freely?" asked the Rev. Matheus Mangentang, chairman of the 1,400-student school.

The government of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, which relies on the support of Islamic parties in Parliament, is struggling to balance deep Islamic traditions and a secular constitution. With elections coming next April, the government seems unwilling to defend religious minorities, lest it be portrayed as anti-Islamic in what is the world's most populous Muslim-majority country.

The July 25 attack, which injured 18 students, was the culmination of years of simmering tensions between the school and residents of the Kampung Pulo neighborhood.

Senny Manave, a spokesman for the Christian school, said complaints were received from neighbors about prayers and the singing of hymns, which they considered disturbing evangelical activity.

Several neighbors refused to comment, saying they feared that could further strain relations. A prominent banner, signed by scores of people, has been hung over an entrance to the neighborhood.

"We the community of Kampung Pulo demand the campus be closed and dissolved," it says.

The assault began around midnight, when students woke to the crash of stones falling on their dormitory roof as a voice over a loudspeaker at a nearby mosque cried "Allah Akbar," or "God is great" in Arabic.

The unidentified speaker urged residents to rise up against their "unwanted neighbors," said Sairin, the head of campus security, who goes by a single name.

The attack followed a claim that a student had broken into a resident's house, but police dismissed the charge.

Uneasy relations date to 2003, when neighbors began to protest the school's presence. Last year, residents set fire to shelters for construction workers to try to stop the campus from expanding deeper into the neighborhood. Some also questioned the legality of the school's permit.

Christian lawmaker Karol Daniel Kadang accused property speculators of provoking last month's incident to clear the land for more profitable use, after the school refused to sell out.

He also blamed the government for failing to build interfaith relations, which he and others believe are beginning to fray.

"People are still tolerant, but there is a growing suspicion among Muslims of others," said Prof. Franz Magnis-Suseno, a Jesuit priest who has lived in Indonesia for half a century.

He added that the police have failed to prevent both attacks on minorities and the forced closure of Christian churches and nontraditional mosques by mobs incited by radical Muslims.

"The state has some responsibility for this growing intolerance, namely by not upholding the law," he said.

A mob stormed a church service last Sunday in another east Jakarta neighborhood, forcing dozens of Christian worshippers to flee, said Jakarta Police Chief Col. Carlo Tewu. No arrests have been made.

Since being driven from campus, nearly 600 female students have been sleeping under suspended tarps at a nearby scout camp, where they had to dig trenches to keep water out during downpours. Classes are held with megaphones in the sweltering summer heat, under trees or the tarps. A similar number of male students live in a guesthouse. The remainder have returned to their families.

Food, water and school supplies are donated by church groups and community charities.

"We feel like refugees in our own country," said Dessy Nope, 19, a second-year student majoring in education. "How can you study here? I only followed 20 percent of my last lesson. It's difficult to concentrate."

Christians have not been the only targets for Muslim hard-liners, who this year set fire to mosques of a Muslim sect, Ahmadiyah, that they consider heretical.

In June, the government ordered members of the sect to return to mainstream Islam, sparking concern among activists who fear the state is interfering in matters of faith and caving in to the demands of radicals.

"We're living in a country where there are many religions, but the government cannot prevent the actions of fundamentalist groups," said Manave, the school spokesman. "The government cannot protect minorities."

Not persecution at all from the religion of peace folks.  rolleyes
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De Selby

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2008, 09:33:32 AM »
Of course this has nothing to do with ethnic tension, because everyone knows that Indonesia is a harmonious place except for there being different religions there.  Or not.

There is always more to these stories, and you'll usually find it if you just search a little more for some information:http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/22/asia/AS-Indonesia-Christians-Attacked.php

Quote
Uneasy relations date to 2003, when neighbors began to protest the school's presence. Last year, residents set fire to shelters for construction workers to try to stop the campus from expanding deeper into the neighborhood. Some also questioned the legality of the school's permit.

Christian lawmaker Karol Daniel Kadang accused property speculators of provoking last month's incident to clear the land for more profitable use, after the school refused to sell out.


There's local politics in a third world country for you....religion mostly irrelevant.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

yesitsloaded

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2008, 09:35:59 AM »
Quote
Hundreds of Christian theology students have been living in tents since a mob of angry Muslim neighbors stormed their campus last month wielding bamboo spears and hurling Molotov cocktails.
Sounds more like a faith based riot to me. Not that people don't mix religion and politics. Kinda why we have that separation of church and state thing, or supposed to have it at least.
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K Frame

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2008, 09:38:42 AM »
Of course it has nothing to do with religion.

At all!

But, had it been a crowd of spear wielding Christians going after the Muslims?

Holocaust, pogrom, crusade, whatever you want to call it, it would have been a devious Jesus attempt to eradicate the peaceful Muslim faith from the face of the earth...  rolleyes


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De Selby

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2008, 09:38:52 AM »
Quote
Hundreds of Christian theology students have been living in tents since a mob of angry Muslim neighbors stormed their campus last month wielding bamboo spears and hurling Molotov cocktails.
Sounds more like a faith based riot to me. Not that people don't mix religion and politics. Kinda why we have that separation of church and state thing, or supposed to have it at least.

Yep-I suppose it's just coincidence that local businesses were trying to buy the school out but couldn't, and then all these riots pop up, and the lawmakers representing the Christian community blame the businesses...

Because third world property magnates would never pay local gangsters to organize riots.  That sort of thing is a stretch to believe.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2008, 09:41:38 AM »
Of course it has nothing to do with religion.

At all!

But, had it been a crowd of spear wielding Christians going after the Muslims?

Holocaust, pogrom, crusade, whatever you want to call it, it would have been a devious Jesus attempt to eradicate the peaceful Muslim faith from the face of the earth...  rolleyes

You know, it has happened in recent memory that Christians were perpertrating a genocide against Muslims, and I saw very few (if any, but I'm sure bin laden claimed it) claiming that it was part of an evil plot by Christianity worldwide, or that it was the product of some religious motivation by Christians to kill other religions.

We seem to have a much easier time seeing the political elements of a war when it's Christians tossing Muslims in gang-rape camps and mass graves, but suddenly there has to be a discussion about Islam when some neighborhood in Indonesia riots over a property dispute. 

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Sindawe

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2008, 09:57:29 AM »
Christianity for all current faults, has matured as a faith beyond the stage where large crowds of its adherents riot in the streets calling for death to the heathens/infidels/apostates.  Islam, still being in the teenager-angst stage of religions has not yet grown beyond such folly.

Would that الله in his wisdom grace Islam with its own Martin Luther, and induce his faithfull to beat the screaming beards with sticks whenever they incite others to violence.

But such is not the way of Gods, even monotheistic ones who claim that there are not other Gods, yet behave more like the Ori than enlightened and compassionate beings.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2008, 10:48:29 AM »

Would that الله in his wisdom grace Islam with its own Martin Luther, and induce his faithfull to beat the screaming beards with sticks whenever they incite others to violence.

That person has probably appeared many times in the history of Islam, yet was murdered by the SBs each and every time.

Chris

K Frame

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2008, 10:51:03 AM »
Why do you hate Islam so, Mtnbkr?
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Bigjake

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2008, 12:22:32 PM »


There's local politics in a third world country for you....religion mostly irrelevant.

Yup, religion had nothing to do with any of this, move along, nothing to see.   rolleyes

De Selby

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2008, 12:37:23 PM »

Would that الله in his wisdom grace Islam with its own Martin Luther, and induce his faithfull to beat the screaming beards with sticks whenever they incite others to violence.

That person has probably appeared many times in the history of Islam, yet was murdered by the SBs each and every time.

Chris

I would say it's more that the screaming beards are the reformers-they're usually the ones with the most strident calls for rejecting the traditional authorities and fashioning a "back to basics, but only in the exact manner we say so" religion.

The most radical reformers of the religion usually are screaming beards, and instead of being killed, the religious authorities of their days debated them endlessly, because like Judaism, that was the way things used to be done in Islam.

The only killing of the radical reformers done lately has been by the socialist governments-they killed Sayid Qutb, for example, because of his reformist rhetoric.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

HankB

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2008, 01:36:26 PM »
Wonder what religion the "property speculators" adhered to . . .
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De Selby

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2008, 02:15:50 PM »
Wonder what religion the "property speculators" adhered to . . .

Mammon worship.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

lee n. field

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2008, 02:46:08 PM »
Quote
tradition of religious tolerance

What "tradition of religious tolerance"?
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lee n. field

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2008, 02:48:34 PM »
Quote
Mammon worship

In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

De Selby

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2008, 03:05:46 PM »
Quote
tradition of religious tolerance

What "tradition of religious tolerance"?

The legal tradition of the various Muslim empires that specified protections for the various religions under their rule.

The reason you have 20 percent of Egypt still Christian after a good 1300 years of Islamic rule is that, in medieval times up through the end of the Ottoman system, official recognition and protection of the religious systems of others was the norm.  You can look for yourself at the religious diversity in the former Muslim empires today-it is far greater than what we find here in the former Christian empires. 

Of course it wasn't just a gift or entirely making nice-it solved the problem of administering competing religious questions, something that ate up an inordinate amount of time in Europe, where religious orthodoxy and obedience to the government went hand in hand. 

The Islamic legal tradition was more to leave well enough alone-as long as the other religions didn't stir up rebellion or behave in a way that was too similar to the pre-Islamic Arabs (eg, practicing infanticide), the Muslim rulers did not care what they did in their Churches or Synagogues or Temples. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2008, 03:11:13 PM »
Christianity for all current faults, has matured as a faith beyond the stage where large crowds of its adherents riot in the streets calling for death to the heathens/infidels/apostates.  Islam, still being in the teenager-angst stage of religions has not yet grown beyond such folly.

Would that الله in his wisdom grace Islam with its own Martin Luther, and induce his faithfull to beat the screaming beards with sticks whenever they incite others to violence.

But such is not the way of Gods, even monotheistic ones who claim that there are not other Gods, yet behave more like the Ori than enlightened and compassionate beings.

Careful what you wish for, because (IMO) SS is on the right track: Islam's "reformation" types are the sorts of folks who want to make Islam more 7th-Century savage than 18th-Century enlightened.

Christianity becoming more amenable to secular government and easier to live with if you are not a Christian is an example of Christians hewing more closely to Christianity's founder and documents.  

Islam becoming more bellicose to non-Muslims and injecting more of Islam into government is an example of Muslims and their governments hewing more closely to Islam's founder and documents.
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grampster

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2008, 03:45:58 PM »
Er...the mostly Christian secular West certainly has come to the aid of Muslims.  Check out a certain fractured former Soviet Empire's satellite state.  The last time I checked Muslims in America are not being pressured in any way, nor are they required to adhere to any unreasonable practices that go against their beliefs.  (notwithstanding some photo ID requirements)

The West, especially America, is certainly being very accommodating with regarding the respect of religious practices.  In fact usually bending over backwards to do so.  Conversely, our Western culture is decried and reviled by certain elements of Islam. While I am not being judgmental in any way, I am perplexed by the fact that practicing my faith in certain places would not be met with the same level of tolerance that is given by me.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2008, 03:47:47 PM »
easy fellers  we do own the phelps clan  and a few others like em
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

grampster

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2008, 03:59:20 PM »
easy fellers  we do own the phelps clan  and a few others like em

Quite an imbalanced comparison imho.  Plus, everywhere the Phelpsians go, so go a larger group of Americans that tend to counter them very well.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2008, 06:34:44 PM »
easy fellers  we do own the phelps clan  and a few others like em

That's about a 1:1,000,000 ratio. Plus the Phelps morons just shout and don't attack or blow things up.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2008, 06:58:08 PM »
ratio yes    eric rudolph   we are lucky that we don't get more wack jobs who are competent
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

RevDisk

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2008, 10:36:12 PM »
easy fellers  we do own the phelps clan  and a few others like em

Quite an imbalanced comparison imho.  Plus, everywhere the Phelpsians go, so go a larger group of Americans that tend to counter them very well.

Spent time in a Islamic country.  A fairly moderate one, but there were a couple crazies running around.  Thankfully, the locals had no qualms about narc'ing 'em out.   A lot of Muslims view American military operations as "militant Christianity".  They see the 150k-600k Iraqis that have been killed as largely being killed by Christians. 

I disagree, and I'm not even a Christian.  Care to guess how honked off most Americans would be if a foreign group killed at least 150k Americans?   
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mtnbkr

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2008, 03:58:45 AM »
ratio yes    eric rudolph   we are lucky that we don't get more wack jobs who are competent

So insignificant as to be meaningless.  We could take all the Phelps clan, Rudolph, and any other Christian radicals you can name and still not measure up to the number in any one Muslim nation.  Please try again.

Chris

K Frame

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Re: Screaming beards strike again.
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2008, 04:24:11 AM »
Silly Chris.

Don't you know that being a Christian Screaming Bible radical is MUCH more heinous than being a Muslim Screaming Beard radical?

So much more heinous that it's a conversion of roughly 1 Screaming Bible radical is equal to 100 billion Screaming Beard radicals?

If there aren't 100 billion scream beard radicals in the world?

Then Christians are far, far worse.
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