Senator Boxer or Ma'am?

[wuluf]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/18/sen-boxer-chides-brigadier-general-calling-maam/

In case you forgot, Barbara Boxer is a senator.

The feisty California lawmaker felt the need to remind an Army brigadier general of that fact Tuesday during a hearing before her Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works, where the military officer testifying had the apparent gall to call Boxer "ma'am."

Brig. Gen. Michael Walsh, with the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, was testifying on the Louisiana coastal restoration process in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. He began to answer one of Boxer's questions with "ma'am" when Boxer immediately cut him off.

"You know, do me a favor," an irritated Boxer said. "Could say 'senator' instead of 'ma'am?'"

"Yes, ma'am," Walsh interjected.

"It's just a thing, I worked so hard to get that title, so I'd appreciate it, yes, thank you," she said.

"Yes, senator," he responded.


However, Walsh surely meant no disrespect, as military protocol advises that officers may use "sir" or "ma'am" when addressing anybody higher than them on the chain of command.

"We would call them 'sir' or 'ma'am' or 'senator such-and-such'," Army spokesman Lt. Col. Nathan Banks said. Banks said any of those terms would be "appropriate" when addressing a senator. 

According to one guide, the Navy and Coast Guard typically use "mister" or "miss" to address officers below the rank of commander, and "sir" or "ma'am," or a specific title, to address anyone at that rank or higher.

"You can never go wrong by using 'Sir' or 'Ma'am,' but it is a nice touch if you can properly address a senior officer," says the guide, Military Protocol: Uniformed Services.

Tuesday's hearing was hardly the first time a military officer used those terms during sworn testimony.

The same day at a Senate Armed Services subcommittee hearing, two Navy officials repeatedly referred to Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., with the title, "sir."

"Yes, sir," Navy Vice Adm. Bernard McCullough said when answering questions.

Wicker raised no objections.




Yup.

So, here's my email to Senator Boxer today:
Senator Boxer: I commend you for insisting on the honorific "Senator" as opposed to "Ma'am" this morning.  Ma'am, especially from someone in the military, is a term of respect, which you've done nothing to earn.  Senator, on the other hand, is merely a title.  Your behavior today was petty, silly and vain, which is pretty typical for a Senator. 

Embarrassed to be your constituent,
Wuluf

[thebaldguy]

I saw this earlier today.

Unblankingreal. I think this is a great example of someone who considers herself one of the "ruling elite". As a vet, I'm a little offended by her rude actions and lack of respect.

I like your email, wuluf. Nicely done.

[Standing Wolf]

Your behavior today was petty, silly and vain...

Not to quibble, but I think she debases the terms "petty" and "vain."

[Ben]

Yes, well done on the email to the "senator".

Also, because this is about a politician's behavior versus being politics, I'm gonna move it over to Roundtable.

[BobR]

"It's just a thing, I worked so hard to get that title, so I'd appreciate it, yes, thank you," she said.

Ans here I was thinking the title was given to her by the misguided people of the bay area that voted her into office. I guess she sees it in a different light.

bob

[Sindawe]

To the other employee's of .gov, she's Senator.

To those of us who actually work for a living, she's "You! servent Girl!".

[makattak]

To the other employee's of .gov, she's Senator.

To those of us who actually work for a living, she's "You! servent Girl!".

Excuse me, but I'm sure that's highly insulting.

She is by no means a GIRL. Try servant woman, or "Old woman!"

[MicroBalrog]

What would be the proper way to address a superior officer in the US Armed Forces? Do they go by rank, like "Colonel" or whatnot, or is it Sir and Madam?

[Jamisjockey]

What would be the proper way to address a superior officer in the US Armed Forces? Do they go by rank, like "Colonel" or whatnot, or is it Sir and Madam?

Depends on context.  Sir and Ma'am is generally how its done, but in conversation rank might get used.  Especially amongst officers, whereas an enlisted person will usually just use Sir or Ma'am. 

[lee n. field]

She is by no means a GIRL. Try servant woman, or "Old woman!"

"Wench" 

with maybe an adjective indicating function.  "kitchen wench", "laundry wench", "senator wench".

[Stand_watie]

What would be the proper way to address a superior officer in the US Armed Forces? Do they go by rank, like "Colonel" or whatnot, or is it Sir and Madam?

     It's either  their rank, or "Sir" or "Ma'am" (not "Madam") . If it's a star-struck lower grade person speaking, it's frequently both repeatedly, even if it makes absolutely no sense to dialogue.

Eg. "General Marsh sir, would you like sir, me to take your jacket sir, fetch coffee sir, park your car in the shade sir and hold your umbrella sir?"

     Just don't call female drill instructors "sir". It pisses them off mightily.

[Jamisjockey]

umbrella sir?"[/i]

     Just don't call female drill instructors "sir". It pisses them off mightily.

<Giggle snort>

Being a brat when I went in had its advantages.  Sir and ma'am were part of my nomenclature, and I had the USMC and USN rank structure memorized. 
USAF ranks, and some Army enlisted ranks still boggle my mind a bit. 
We were teaching some USAF Combat Controllers about our gear once, setting up the portable tower and some other stuff.  I began barking orders at a couple of them, who were all senior to me, and referring to them as "Airmen".  Apparently, Airmen is a low rank in the air force, and they took offense.  I think they were considering kicking my ass....

[Stand_watie]

Depends on context.  Sir and Ma'am is generally how its done, but in conversation rank might get used.  Especially amongst officers, whereas an enlisted person will usually just use Sir or Ma'am. 

   To add to JamisJockey's point about context, using rank is more common when referring to another military member in the "third person" rather than speaking to them directly.

Examples:

Sergeant speaking to Private: "You're off duty, go tell Smith to get his ass out here and take over"
Private speaking to Sergeant: "Yes, sir"
Private speaking to Private: "Sergeant Jones said to tell you to get your ass out there and take over"

[Jamisjockey]

   To add to JamisJockey's point about context, using rank is more common when referring to another military member in the "third person" rather than speaking to them directly.

Examples:

Sergeant speaking to Private: "You're off duty, go tell Smith to get his ass out here and take over"
Private speaking to Sergeant: "Yes, sir"
Private speaking to Private: "Sergeant Jones said to tell you to get your ass out there and take over"

Kind of.  In the Marine Corps, a Private who's graduated Boot Camp doesn't call another enlisted person "Sir", but by the rank ("Yes, Gunnery Sargent!")  "Sir" is generally reserved for Officers and Warrants.  Conversely, an officer will call an officer of higher rank sir, but often in conversation by rank.  ("General, I think it's best if we set up our FOB a little north of that position.")

[Stand_watie]

<Giggle snort>

...  Apparently, Airmen is a low rank in the air force, and they took offense.  I think they were considering kicking my ass....

E-1 through E-4 when I was in.

     Here's another giggle snort for you....reference to rank is far more relaxed in the Air Guard than in the regular Air Force and far, FAR more relaxed than in the tec schools of the Air Force. Three years into my guard enlistment I retrained at Lowry in Denver, with another guy in my unit, who we all called "Rog" (Because his first name was "Roger"). I was E-3 (Airman first class) and he was E-6 (Master-sergeant) our instructors were E-4's and E-5's. Our fellow students were E-2's and E-3's. I called him "Rog" for our first couple of weeks of training (and never really thought twice about it)...the teachers didn't care for that at all.  But instead of just telling me not to do it on the first day of class, they instead fretted and worried on it for two weekse before they  called him aside after class one day and asked him to please ask me not to do it.

     Kind of a convoluted way to get from point a to point b.

[Jamisjockey]

E-1 through E-4 when I was in.

     Here's another giggle snort for you....reference to rank is far more relaxed in the Air Guard than in the regular Air Force and far, FAR more relaxed than in the tec schools of the Air Force. Three years into my guard enlistment I retrained at Lowry in Denver, with another guy in my unit, who we all called "Rog" (Because his first name was "Roger"). I was E-3 (Airman first class) and he was E-6 (Master-sergeant) our instructors were E-4's and E-5's. Our fellow students were E-2's and E-3's. I called him "Rog" for our first couple of weeks of training (and never really thought twice about it)...the teachers didn't care for that at all.  But instead of just telling me not to do it on the first day of class, they instead fretted and worried on it for two weekse before they  called him aside after class one day and asked him to please ask me not to do it.

     Kind of a convoluted way to get from point a to point b.

In the Corps, an E4 (Corporal) is considered an NCO. 
Combat Controllers fancy themselves Special Operators....so they took themselves all serious.  It was cute.

[Seenterman]

Repect ma athoritay!

She's sounds like a rather rotund child from South Park, Colorado.

[Stand_watie]

In the Corps, an E4 (Corporal) is considered an NCO. 
Combat Controllers fancy themselves Special Operators....so they took themselves all serious.  It was cute.

In the Air Force (When I was in) there were two grades of E-4. "Senior Airman" (Non-NCO) and "Buck sergeant" (NCO). I believe they now jump directly from non-NCO E-4 ("senior airman") to NCO E-5 ("Staff Sergeant").

The rest of the Air Force only considers Combat Controllers (and para-rescue) to be approximately about as bad -ass as a standard Marine.  The real men and women of the Air Force who are genuinely feared and respected (by the lower ranking enlisted members of the Air Force) are the half crippled crusty old Chief master sergeants who can (by mumbling drunken curses about you into their beer at the nco club), accidentally (or deliberately) easily arrange to have your day, year, or career,  ruined by

a) The Marine recon guys who "retired"  to the Air Force because it has cushy facilities

b) The Air Force cops

c) Pretty much any officer

     Does this sort of malicious wrongdoing occur very frequently in the Air Force? I'd say generally "no", it probably occurs more often in civilian low-level politics. But are Air Force enlisted personell VERY aware of it? Darn right.

[41magsnub]

   To add to JamisJockey's point about context, using rank is more common when referring to another military member in the "third person" rather than speaking to them directly.

Examples:

Sergeant speaking to Private: "You're off duty, go tell Smith to get his ass out here and take over"
Private speaking to Sergeant: "Yes, sir"
Private speaking to Private: "Sergeant Jones said to tell you to get your ass out there and take over"

"Sir?  I work for a living private!" would be the proper reponse from the SGT after that statement.  Only officers are referred to as sir in the Army.  Warrant offices are referred to as Mr for the first rank and then Chief after that.  A drill sgt is sir or ma'am in Marines but after that it is just actual rank.  In the Army it is SGT or drill SGT up to 1st SGT which this is either 1st SGT or Top.  SGT Majors are called SGT Major by everyone.

[41magsnub]

"Sir?  I work for a living private!" would be the proper reponse from the SGT after that statement.  Only officers are referred to as sir in the Army.  A drill sgt is sir or ma'am in Marines but after that it is just actual rank.  In the Army it is SGT or drill SGT up to 1st SGT which this is either 1st SGT or Top.  SGT Majors are called SGT Major by everyone.

I forgot Corporal which is supposed to be referred to as Corporal but nobody ever did.  They are just a specialist that the CO liked and make an NCO with no extra pay.  I was a Corporal when I got out and it sucked..  "Hey!  we need an NCO to be in charge of <insert pointless make work detail here>, send Gilbert!"

[roo_ster]

We were teaching some USAF Combat Controllers about our gear once, setting up the portable tower and some other stuff.  I began barking orders at a couple of them, who were all senior to me, and referring to them as "Airmen".  Apparently, Airmen is a low rank in the air force, and they took offense.  I think they were considering kicking my ass....

See, here, is a difference in perspective. 

From my POV, USAF CCs & PJs were the absolutely most laid back of any muldoons in the special operations community I ever worked with.

Combat Controllers fancy themselves Special Operators....so they took themselves all serious.  It was cute.

They get some of the best training there is to be had, even if a goodly portion is a la carte and does not lead to scare badges.

Also, I think those AF enlisted guys take a while to earn rank.  The PJ I mention below was an E-4 (loadmaster?  AF vets, do please correct) with 7 years of service.


There is a real difference in service cultures, no doubt. 

My room mate at jump school was a PJ on the tail end of his training regimen* and rubbed the black hats the wrong way, being just a little too Air Forcey for their taste.  I think it was a combination of a more businesslike AF culture mixed with his recent SF SCUBA training, where he was trained by some real hard folks.  Seeing the black hats strut around like peacocks was something he thought ludicrous and he didn;t do enough to keep it under his hat.

I tried my best to square him away, but he ended up doing some things the hard way.



* Included the AF CC/PJ selection course (which is no walk in the park), SF SCUBA, Mtn portion of Ranger School, & something else I am missing.  He still had jump school and HALO to go...& maybe a medic course (not sure if the 10-wk regular medic or 26-week special ops medic course), IIRC.

[Jamisjockey]

They didn't endear themselves to us very well.  They were working with us to familiarize with our field gear as well as get some stick time working USMC and USN aircraft, but they were more interested in trying to impress us on how well they were trained to do everything but separate aircraft.  The ones I worked with that month were tools.  Probably not indicative of the entire MOS.  Our group was pretty laid back, but pretty serious about our work.  It was pretty typical that when we were setting up an airfield, the controllers pitched in and did the grunt work.  Chain of command went out the window, you might have a Gunny and a PFC filling sandbags together, and some NCO's hand cranking the portable tower up the scaffolding.
The CC guys thought they might be above that for some reason. 

[Hawkmoon]

   To add to JamisJockey's point about context, using rank is more common when referring to another military member in the "third person" rather than speaking to them directly.

Examples:

Sergeant speaking to Private: "You're off duty, go tell Smith to get his ass out here and take over"
Private speaking to Sergeant: "Yes, sir"
Private speaking to Private: "Sergeant Jones said to tell you to get your ass out there and take over"

Unless things have changed in the US Army since I was in, that's incorrect. Non-commissioned officers (corporals, and sergeants of any degree) were NOT addressed as "Sir" in the Army during the Vietnam era. "Sir" was reserved for warrant officers and commissioned officers.

Has it changed?

[Stand_watie]

Unless things have changed in the US Army since I was in, that's incorrect. Non-commissioned officers (corporals, and sergeants of any degree) were NOT addressed as "Sir" in the Army during the Vietnam era. "Sir" was reserved for warrant officers and commissioned officers.

Has it changed?

I'll stand corrected by the Army guys as to what is "traditional" in the Army.

[Waitone]

This just in:  Boxer sees no reason to apologize.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/19/sen-boxer-offers-apology-rebuking-brigadier-general-called-maam/