Pondering the new mid-size trucks

[MillCreek]

So the 2016 Toyota Tacoma will be hitting the dealer lots next month, in competition with the Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon.  Theoretically, a new Nissan Frontier will be out in the 'next year or two'.  I have been reading the reviews of the new Tacoma, and it is looking interesting.

[Kingcreek]

My next truck will be a midsize 4x4 if I can keep the '99 F250 SuperDuty around and patched together just enough to drag or haul the occaisional heavy stuff.
Does Toyota still offer the diff-lock option on the 4x4 Tacoma? 10 years ago I went on a Utah elk hunt and the outfitter had one that impressed the hell out of me. We went some places I would have thought only a beefed up jeep would go.

[charby]

My next 4x4 pickup truck will be a full size, mid size and full size get almost the same MPG. So I might as well get more room.

[roo_ster]

My next 4x4 pickup truck will be a full size, mid size and full size get almost the same MPG. So I might as well get more room.

Would have done that, but cost is 50%+/- more than mid-size (~ $20k vs $30k to start).  Also, the smaller size is a boon to some.

So the 2016 Toyota Tacoma will be hitting the dealer lots next month, in competition with the Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon.  Theoretically, a new Nissan Frontier will be out in the 'next year or two'.  I have been reading the reviews of the new Tacoma, and it is looking interesting.

FTR, I would not buy the first model year of about anything.  If you are intrigued by the 2016 Tacoma, it will still be around in 2017.  Same with the new Nissan.

About the only thing I would wait for would be if the Front & Tac went back to real front suspensions and ditched the thrice-damned struts.  I loved the torsion bar suspension in my 1997 Nissan PU.

[MillCreek]

My next 4x4 pickup truck will be a full size, mid size and full size get almost the same MPG. So I might as well get more room.

I want something that I can park in the garage and when necessary drive in downtown Seattle and park in the courthouse/office buildings garages with their tight spaces.  Cost and MPG are not factors in my calculations; size and manageability are.

[SADShooter]

I like my 2010 Tacoma 4dr Prerunner. My only issue is having trouble parking it because I can't see the front corners over the sloped hood. I'll look at the new one, since they're being assembled in my adopted home town, and consider an upgrade after the shakeout production.

[charby]

I want something that I can park in the garage and when necessary drive in downtown Seattle and park in the courthouse/office buildings garages with their tight spaces.  Cost and MPG are not factors in my calculations; size and manageability are.

My 2002 4x4 4 Dr Nissan Frontier is just as long as a 4dr full sized short bed. It doesn't fit in my garage either, too long.

Next place I live will have at least a 25' deep garage or deeper, I'll build a new garage if I have too.

[mtnbkr]

About the only thing I would wait for would be if the Front & Tac went back to real front suspensions and ditched the thrice-damned struts.  I loved the torsion bar suspension in my 1997 Nissan PU.

Are they struts or coil-over shocks?  My 97 4Runner has coil-over shocks up front.  They seem to work fine.  Changing shocks requires a spring compressor, but isn't all that difficult otherwise.  The rear shocks are actually more of a PITA (traditional set up in the rear).

Chris

[roo_ster]

Are they struts or coil-over shocks?  My 97 4Runner has coil-over shocks up front.  They seem to work fine.  Changing shocks requires a spring compressor, but isn't all that difficult otherwise.  The rear shocks are actually more of a PITA (traditional set up in the rear).

Chris

Both Nissan and Toyota call them struts in their literature.  Check out the photos I took of my front suspension:




Sure don't look like double A-arm/wishbone/control-arm suspension to me.  One swing arm. IIRC, Toyota's Tacoma is similar.

Here is the 1986-1997 Nissan PU schematic:


Another:


Torsion bar & double "control arms."

Call them struts, coil-over-shocks, or 'nanner pudding, the front suspensions of current mid-size pickups are NOT as good/supple/ground contacty as those of old with double wishbone front suspension.  Coil or torsion bar (my preference).  Newer suspensions will ride harder and not maintain contact with the surface as well as double wish bone...and will be more expensive to replace then shocks when the strut hydraulic bits wear.

Matter of fact, the first week I owned my 2013 Nissan Frontier, I took it in to balance the tires.  Nope, they were balanced.  Strut front suspension is just more jumpy/bouncy/not as smooth when it hits pavement irregularities.

I will post a detailed review of my 2013 Frontier, which will be very positive, but this design point is a black mark against it (and the Toyota).

[roo_ster]

Paging Emily Litella....



1. They do call them struts in the literature in some places...and shock absorbers in others.

But... [Get that crow warmed up, because here I come!]

2. Just checked out some schematics of the Nissan Frontier.  It looks like they do have a double WB front suspension.  But, it is one helluva oddball DWB.  I could not see the upper arm at ground level when I looked for them and you can not see them in the above photos.  But they are there, ABOVE the top end of the photo, held together with what NIssan calls a "steering knuckle" that I think resembles more "gargantulink."



Part 4.  You can see bits of gargantulink in my photos.  "Knuckle" my tuckus.  The "knuckle" is so big, the upper and lower a-arms reside in different zip codes.  And in this schematic, they use "shock" and "coil spring" nomenclature.  I distinctly recall "strut" in other sources.

3. I can't blame the roughness on the lack of double wish-bones up front.  Maybe my backside is more sensitive.  More likely, the tires are to blame due to their construction.  I already dislike the OEM tires, so that is easy. 

[Ben]

You guys are making it sound like the '16 Tacoma is a redesign. Are they coming out with Gen6, or is it just a 2016 Gen5?

I really like my gen5 4Runner, which (to my knowledge) is the same base frame as the Tacoma. If the Toyota premium prices are not a factor, I think they make a good truck. If I were to go mid-size, it's probably what I'd get, though I might also investigate the new Ford Rangers (after waiting for the first generation bugs to be worked out). Otherwise Nissan, if not as refined as the Toyotas, seems to give a good bang for the buck in the mid-size market.

[lupinus]

You guys are making it sound like the '16 Tacoma is a redesign. Are they coming out with Gen6, or is it just a 2016 Gen5?

I really like my gen5 4Runner, which (to my knowledge) is the same base frame as the Tacoma. If the Toyota premium prices are not a factor, I think they make a good truck. If I were to go mid-size, it's probably what I'd get, though I might also investigate the new Ford Rangers (after waiting for the first generation bugs to be worked out). Otherwise Nissan, if not as refined as the Toyotas, seems to give a good bang for the buck in the mid-size market.

I haven't delved in enough to know if they are considering it a new gen or not, by my understanding is that it's at least a major upgrade.

Personally when I go to buy a new truck in a few years I'll most likely be looking at the midsize offerings. Unless they rein in the full size pick ups between now and then I simply have no use for one and find the more reasonable size a plus.

[MillCreek]

It is a major redesign done to compete with the Colorado and the Canyon.

[MillCreek]

You guys are making it sound like the '16 Tacoma is a redesign. Are they coming out with Gen6, or is it just a 2016 Gen5?

though I might also investigate the new Ford Rangers (after waiting for the first generation bugs to be worked out).

Ford keeps saying they will not bring the global Ranger to the US or Canada, although they are in Mexico. 

[lupinus]

Ford keeps saying they will not bring the global Ranger to the US or Canada, although they are in Mexico. 

I will be highly surprised if they do bring it here. At the very least, the other manufacturers will need to prove there is market demand and ford lovers will need to scream from the roof tops. Even then I give it 50/50 at best.

[mtnbkr]

Paging Emily Litella....



1. They do call them struts in the literature in some places...and shock absorbers in others.

But... [Get that crow warmed up, because here I come!]

2. Just checked out some schematics of the Nissan Frontier.  It looks like they do have a double WB front suspension.  But, it is one helluva oddball DWB.  I could not see the upper arm at ground level when I looked for them and you can not see them in the above photos.  But they are there, ABOVE the top end of the photo, held together with what NIssan calls a "steering knuckle" that I think resembles more "gargantulink."



Part 4.  You can see bits of gargantulink in my photos.  "Knuckle" my tuckus.  The "knuckle" is so big, the upper and lower a-arms reside in different zip codes.  And in this schematic, they use "shock" and "coil spring" nomenclature.  I distinctly recall "strut" in other sources.

3. I can't blame the roughness on the lack of double wish-bones up front.  Maybe my backside is more sensitive.  More likely, the tires are to blame due to their construction.  I already dislike the OEM tires, so that is easy. 

My 4Runner is of a similar design.  I don't know much about suspension, but always assumed a strut replaced parts of the suspension linkage (control arms, etc) and required an alignment during replacement.   

My 4Runner is rough, but I chalk that up to the LT tires I use.

Chris

[MillCreek]

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2015/04/fords-2016-ford-ranger-will-not-come-to-us.html

http://www.topspeed.com/trucks/truck-reviews/ford/2016-ford-ranger-wildtrak-ar169881.html

[Ben]

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2015/04/fords-2016-ford-ranger-will-not-come-to-us.html

http://www.topspeed.com/trucks/truck-reviews/ford/2016-ford-ranger-wildtrak-ar169881.html

Well, I stand corrected. The last I read, the implication was that it was to be reintroduced here. I guess they don't want to take a chance at losing any F150 Lariat sales. I would have thought they'd have a niche for it here. My dad drives a standard cab 2011 Ranger and wouldn't have anything else. It's just the right size for the old geezer and the small and light loads he hauls from time to time. I think it cost him $14K new.

[charby]

Replacing the LBJ and UBJ was a pain in the ass on my 4x4 Frontier. Torsion bars are easy, since you jack up the truck off the suspension, mark the bar and keepers, then count the number of turns are you release the tension, then pull the bar out.

Pain in the ass was the frozen bolts in the suspension, need to cut them out, of course the bolts were special order from Nissan. Also the L control arm frame bushing was a bitch to remove, because you only have about 8" to swing a hammer and cold chisel to cut it out.

[roo_ster]

My 4Runner is of a similar design.  I don't know much about suspension, but always assumed a strut replaced parts of the suspension linkage (control arms, etc) and required an alignment during replacement.   

My 4Runner is rough, but I chalk that up to the LT tires I use.

Chris

MacPherson Struts:

Although it is a popular choice, due to its simplicity and low manufacturing cost, the design has a few disadvantages in the quality of ride and the handling of the car. Geometric analysis shows it cannot allow vertical movement of the wheel without some degree of either camber angle change, sideways movement, or both. It is not generally considered to give as good handling as a double wishbone or multi-link suspension, because it allows the engineers less freedom to choose camber change and roll center.
Another drawback is that it tends to transmit noise and vibration from the road directly into the body shell, giving higher noise levels and a "harsh" feeling to the ride compared with double wishbones[citation needed], requiring manufacturers to add extra noise reduction or cancellation and isolation mechanisms.

I think the literature referring to "struts" for the Nissan Frontier & Toyota Tac were incorrect and referred to the shock/coil unit that looks like the business bits of a MacPherson strut.

FYI:

In automobiles, a double wishbone (or upper and lower A-arm) suspension is an independent suspension design using two (occasionally parallel) wishbone-shaped arms to locate the wheel. Each wishbone or arm has two mounting points to the chassis and one joint at the knuckle. The shock absorber and coil spring mount to the wishbones to control vertical movement. Double wishbone designs allow the engineer to carefully control the motion of the wheel throughout suspension travel, controlling such parameters as camber angle, caster angle, toe pattern, roll center height, scrub radius, scuff and more.

^^^ A MacPherson Strut suspension would show the tire changing camber (leaning in or out & reducing tire contact patch with the road).

[Boomhauer]

I'd get a Tacoma without much hesitation


GM has a diesel Coloraydo but it's going to have a DPF, EGR, and SCR from what I hear (i.e., a big *expletive deleted*in pile of Do. Not. Want. until deletes come out for it)

[Northwoods]

I'd get a Tacoma without much hesitation


GM has a diesel Coloraydo but it's going to have a DPF, EGR, and SCR from what I hear (i.e., a big *expletive deleted*in pile of Do. Not. Want. until deletes come out for it)

Deletes will become ever more difficult for aftertreatment systems.  And would make the truck probably illegal to drive, or at least sell.  The EPA and CARB are making it so it's really, really hard to get around diesel emissions regulations.

[MillCreek]

Because I like to learn something every day, what are the disadvantages to the required diesel emissions equipment?  Why would a truck owner want to remove them?

[Boomhauer]

Because I like to learn something every day, what are the disadvantages to the required diesel emissions equipment?  Why would a truck owner want to remove them?

Tier 4 emissions equipment means that there is a noticeable reliability degradation plus somewhat decreased MPG (although that part is being countered now somewhat) and increased maintenance costs. You can also gain performance increases with the same tunes that delete the emissions equipment. In time the reliability should get better (so long as makers have time to work out the bugs instead of having to deal with yet more emissions regs being thrown on them) but right now it's still a problem.

[Ben]

Tier 4 emissions equipment means that there is a noticeable reliability degradation plus somewhat decreased MPG (although that part is being countered now somewhat)

Glad to see an MPG improvement happening. The first DPFs on the Super Duties was an enormous hit. Guys who lived where they could delete it were getting 5MPG better than the rest of us, and that was normal driving, not counting the ridiculous MPG hit you take every time the DPF activates. The increased full consumption on the 08-10s more than counteracts any hippy carbon savings from the DPF.