Author Topic: It's legally a good shoot, but  (Read 32125 times)

De Selby

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #175 on: August 27, 2018, 12:45:23 AM »
I read the warrant and the one thing that jumped out at me was the statement that the shootee was over 10 feet away from the shooter. The access aisle (hashmarks on the ground) is 5 feet wide, and in looking at the video unless the shootee is 12 feet tall I find it hard to believe he was > 10 feet away. One fatal flaw in the warrant which points to possibly even more problems with it.

As far as the prior actions alleged by the Detective, they will never see the light of day in court.  It is hearsay at best and flat out lies at worst and even some two bit ambulance chasing lawyer knows how to get that thrown out.


bob

Hahah, okay dude - you don’t think a direct witness saying “he called me racial slurs and got his gun out over that same parking space” and his boss directly testifying “this nut job called and said I was lucky he didn’t blow my employees head off” will be relevant to his state of mind in a shooting....of a black person over that very same parking space???

LOL. Everything about those facts screams relevant.

For the distance, the technology they used to verify Drejka’s own re-enactment of how far away McGlockton was when he fired is outlined in the papers. Pretty sure that tech combined with the shooters own immediate recollection is more likely to be accurate than a guess from an internet replay.
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De Selby

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #176 on: August 27, 2018, 12:50:34 AM »
Yes ... three times. What are you seeing that we're missing? Remember, this is only the state's allegation, it's not necessarily correct or factual, and it hasn't been tried in court.

Basically, all the warrant says is that Drejka used a gun to shoot a person, and the state thinks that it wasn't legal for him to have done so. Oh ... and in so doing, he offended the "peace and dignity" of the State of Florida.

Well, no - the warrant says he shot someone backing away after causing a commotion that drew the other patrons attention. It also says this guy has a history of threatening to shoot people while yelling racial slurs at them over that parking space.

That is most definitely a Prima Facie manslaughter case and a lesson - if you don’t feel like you can refrain from threatening to use your carry piece over parking spaces, or shouting racial slurs in the process, you probably should not carry a firearm. Those behaviours will be used to make inferences about your state of mind should you ever actually shoot someone.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Chester32141

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #177 on: August 27, 2018, 08:31:26 AM »
 It wasn't a game of Hacky Sack …  When the attacker took a step or two back it was to line up a kick to the shooters head … Has anyone ever kicked something from a flatfooted standing position …  ;/

That warrant was as accurate as the warrant used to charge Zimmerman …  [popcorn]
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De Selby

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #178 on: August 27, 2018, 09:07:58 AM »
It wasn't a game of Hacky Sack …  When the attacker took a step or two back it was to line up a kick to the shooters head … Has anyone ever kicked something from a flatfooted standing position …  ;/

That warrant was as accurate as the warrant used to charge Zimmerman …  [popcorn]

Who do you know that has a 10 foot kick radius?
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MechAg94

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #179 on: August 27, 2018, 09:11:42 AM »
I must have missed the measuring tape in the video.   =)
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De Selby

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #180 on: August 27, 2018, 09:20:56 AM »
I must have missed the measuring tape in the video.   =)

Hahahaha did you read the warrant????  Explains very well how they measured the distance - including the shooters own version
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MechAg94

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #181 on: August 27, 2018, 09:39:18 AM »
Hahahaha did you read the warrant????  Explains very well how they measured the distance - including the shooters own version
Seriously?  A reenactment in an interview room.  I would say Dreika was stupid in doing that.  He should have had his own lawyer present. 
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De Selby

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #182 on: August 27, 2018, 09:55:02 AM »
Seriously?  A reenactment in an interview room.  I would say Dreika was stupid in doing that.  He should have had his own lawyer present.  

How about the video tool that measures distances???


Drejkas main stupidity was in continuing to carry after having had road rage incidents that led him to brandish his gun and shout racial slurs. With that little self control he should’ve given up guns in a sober moment.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

dogmush

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #183 on: August 27, 2018, 10:03:20 AM »
How about the video tool that measures distances???


Drejkas main stupidity was in continuing to carry after having had road rage incidents that led him to brandish his gun and shout racial slurs. With that little self control he should’ve given up guns in a sober moment.

How about a Tueller Drill?  I'm sure an expert firearms witness can be found to testify that the time it takes to tee off and kick a face like a football from 10 feet is at or less then the reaction time to aim and fire a good shot.  Especially if the shooter is already disoriented on the ground.

Honestly, as I've said before, I think Drejka might be screwed on this.  A lot is going to rest on what the jury can be convinced is a reasonable fear.  It's hard to call right now.  As the trial progresses and more actual evidence comes out perhaps it'll be easier to predict an outcome.

De Selby, however, seems to be following his normal program of pulling one or two things from evidence, ignoring what he doesn't like, and doubling or tripling down on his preconceived notions.  For those reading that don't feel like going through the archives, this technique doesn't leave him with a very good ratio of predicting the outcome of self defense shootings.

ETA: the alleged Road Rage incident(s) is exactly that; alleged.  When the cops showed up the people he supposedly brandished at suddenly had a change of heart about the gun's presence. (or they didn't wait for the cops at all)  Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't. Perhaps the folks that called the cops told a story that made them look innocent.  We'll never know because no one actually made a criminal complaint.  Yet De Selby is going to ride that horse down.

Chester32141

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #184 on: August 27, 2018, 10:09:56 AM »
How about the video tool that measures distances??? Drejkas main stupidity was in continuing to carry after having had road rage incidents that led him to brandish his gun and shout racial slurs. With that little self control he should’ve given up guns in a sober moment.

I'm married to a black woman … Drejkas first mistake was interacting with a black person needlessly … Perhaps OK in some parts of the world but not here in Central Florida ... Would this have even made the news had the races been reversed …  =| 
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freakazoid

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #185 on: August 27, 2018, 10:11:12 AM »
Here's where McGlockton advanced to the moment before Drejka started pulling his firearm, it's blocked but he's standing on the yellow parking space divider. This is certainly not 10 feet away.


The moment he saw him drawing McGlockton shuffled back three steps before pausing. This is where he stood the moment before he was shot. Only took about 2-3 seconds between the top picture and this. Depends on where you are measuring, but this also doesn't seem like 10 feet away.
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TommyGunn

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #186 on: August 27, 2018, 10:15:49 AM »
I dunno ...top photo, 10 feet seems possible.  Lower photo, no,  not....so much ....

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Perd Hapley

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #187 on: August 27, 2018, 10:43:39 AM »
I'm sorry, dogmush, but I'm afraid I agree with you. Drejka may have been OK to shoot, but he may go down, anyway. His is not the ideal self-defense case, and certain people, one of them on this website, are too eager to prosecute him.
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De Selby

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #188 on: August 27, 2018, 11:16:44 AM »
How about a Tueller Drill?  I'm sure an expert firearms witness can be found to testify that the time it takes to tee off and kick a face like a football from 10 feet is at or less then the reaction time to aim and fire a good shot.  Especially if the shooter is already disoriented on the ground.

Honestly, as I've said before, I think Drejka might be screwed on this.  A lot is going to rest on what the jury can be convinced is a reasonable fear.  It's hard to call right now.  As the trial progresses and more actual evidence comes out perhaps it'll be easier to predict an outcome.

De Selby, however, seems to be following his normal program of pulling one or two things from evidence, ignoring what he doesn't like, and doubling or tripling down on his preconceived notions.  For those reading that don't feel like going through the archives, this technique doesn't leave him with a very good ratio of predicting the outcome of self defense shootings.

ETA: the alleged Road Rage incident(s) is exactly that; alleged.  When the cops showed up the people he supposedly brandished at suddenly had a change of heart about the gun's presence. (or they didn't wait for the cops at all)  Perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't. Perhaps the folks that called the cops told a story that made them look innocent.  We'll never know because no one actually made a criminal complaint.  Yet De Selby is going to ride that horse down.

How about the septic tank truck business owner who got a call about his employee? Or the racial slurs from multiple independent sources? You don’t think that’s a problem?

I think it’s a bit surprising how far some will stretch to make all the problems with this shooting technical.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #189 on: August 27, 2018, 11:17:55 AM »
I'm married to a black woman … Drejkas first mistake was interacting with a black person needlessly … Perhaps OK in some parts of the world but not here in Central Florida ... Would this have even made the news had the races been reversed …  =| 


So correct me here - you don’t think having a history of pulling guns on black people and calling them racial slurs is a problem in a shooting of a black persons over a parking space???
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

BobR

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #190 on: August 27, 2018, 11:25:16 AM »
You just never know what a jury will do, we had a guy here leave his car running to warm up (in his driveway) and along came a guy that figured it was warmed up for him. Car owner came out, found him leaving with his vehicle and work tools so he did what he thought was right and fired one round at the fleeing vehicle. Bullet went through rear window, headrest and into the borrowers brain pan. He went to trial for 2nd degree manslaughter and the jury found him not guilty. You just never know.


http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/apr/11/gerlach-acquitted-in-shooting-death-of-fleeing/

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Hawkmoon

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #191 on: August 27, 2018, 11:26:29 AM »
Hahahaha did you read the warrant????  Explains very well how they measured the distance - including the shooters own version

You're jesting, right? Or just trolling us again?

From the detective's affidavit supporting the warrent (not from the warrant itself):

Quote
Your Affiant asked him to reenact the shooting demonstrating the distance between the men at the time the shot was fired. Your affiant played the role of the victim. MICHAEL DREJKA sat on the ground and pointed his arms outstretched toward your Affiant in a shooting position. MICHAEL DREJKA directed your Affiant to back up, at which point your Affiant had stepped all the way to the wall and could not retreat any further. The interview room where the enactment took place is a 10 x 10 foot room. Based upon this reenactment, MICHAEL DREJKA demonstrated that Markeis McGlockton was in excess of 10 feet from him when he shot him.

That's about as ridiculous a statement as I've ever encountered. Even highway cops use tape measures and sometimes surveying equipment at accident scenes to establish distances, and in a homicide this detective uses a [subjective] reenactment, in a room far removed from the scene, without describing where in the room Drejka was sitting on the ground [sic], whether he was backing up rectilinearly or diagonally, and what furniture was in the room and how it was arranged? And we're supposed to attach significance to this?

Gimme a break.

[Edit to add] Then the affidavit goes on to mention that they used a FARO [sic] 3D Scanner to take measurements, and that based on this the distance was from 10 to 15 feet, probably 12 feet. Having had some exposure (in court) to people citing results from technical measuring equipment used improperly, that interested me, so I looked up the FARO 3D laser scanner. It has a precision of less than 1.5mm (0.039 inches). So with a piece of very high tech, laser measuring equipment capable of measuring to 1/32 of an inch the best the sheriff's detectives could come up with was a range of 5 FEET! They would have done better to draw marks on the pavement with chalk and use a tape measure. They probably had a grant to buy the equipment, but didn't have the money to train anyone how to use it properly.

Sorry, Mate ... I'm not convinced.
[/end edit]


Quote from: Dogmush
Honestly, as I've said before, I think Drejka might be screwed on this.  A lot is going to rest on what the jury can be convinced is a reasonable fear.  It's hard to call right now.  As the trial progresses and more actual evidence comes out perhaps it'll be easier to predict an outcome.

Indeed, it's all going to come down to the trial. Initially the sheriff's office didn't think charges were appropriate. Now that the State has overridden that, the detective has concocted a multi-page affidavit to support charges. Personally, to me this has the earmarks of someone who wrote what he was told to write. In a non-criminal situation, I've been in that position. A boss once asked me if something he had designed met the building code. I told him it didn't. He then said, "Well, I already told the client that it does, so write something to support that." So I wrote a bunch of wishy-washy, conditional words that said if this and if that, then maybe. Of course, the boss didn't like it. He told me to make it stronger, and to "own it." I told him the only opinion I was willing to "own" on the question was that it didn't meet code. Then I quit.

Back to Drejka. Clearly, there is no consensus, either in this thread or in a similar thread on The Firing Line. Dogmush is entirely correct: it's going to be up to the jury to decide. All I can say is that, based on what I've seen to date, I think the shooting was legally defensible. I'm not saying that Drejka was smart or a good person, only that I think it's reasonable under the circumstances for him to have been in fear of death or serious bodily injury.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 11:57:36 AM by Hawkmoon »
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Boomhauer

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #192 on: August 27, 2018, 12:01:35 PM »
Quote
o correct me here - you don’t think having a history of pulling guns on black people and calling them racial slurs is a problem in a shooting of a black persons over a parking space???

Woah woah woah I thought past history didn’t matter...or at least that’s what you said in regards to the deceased felon *expletive deleted*head
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Pb

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #193 on: August 27, 2018, 12:51:32 PM »

So correct me here - you don’t think having a history of pulling guns on black people and calling them racial slurs is a problem in a shooting of a black persons over a parking space???

The deceased wasn't shot over a parking space.  He was shot because he attacked someone.  The accused maybe a nasty ahole- who knows- but the video I saw was of a man being attacked, who then killed the attacker.  Good shoot.

MechAg94

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #194 on: August 27, 2018, 02:23:10 PM »
The deceased wasn't shot over a parking space.  He was shot because he attacked someone.  The accused maybe a nasty ahole- who knows- but the video I saw was of a man being attacked, who then killed the attacker.  Good shoot.
And that is the point the news media (and others) talk right past.  The deceased wasn't involved in the argument over the parking space.  He just walked up and shoved the guy.  Had he gotten involved in the argument first instead of attacking, Dreka may have backed off and he would still be alive. 
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dogmush

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #195 on: August 27, 2018, 02:34:27 PM »
What De Selby (and admittedly many others) are missing is being an ahole, even a racist ahole, does not deprive you of your right to life, nor the right to defend your life.

One could in fact tell your room mate "I'm gonna go shoot me a black man!" and then go to the ghetto and walk up and down the street counting a roll of $100 bills until you are mugged, and still have the right to defend yourself.  The trial would be more of an uphill battle, for sure, but with the right circumstances it's legal.  Much like saying you're having an Art showing of Mohammad cartoons and capping the terrorists that show up.  Laws tend to be written against the person that initiates physical assault.

I'm unaware of a successful, modern, "Fighting Words" defense to shooting someone.

Drejka is almost certainly racist, and certainly has been intemperate in the past, with a firearm, but apparently not to the level of a conviction.  He likely was spoiling for a confrontation. Had he shot the woman that he started abusing over a parking space this would be a very different conversation.  But he didn't.  He shot the guy that attacked him. Indeed, absent some evidence not in public McGlockton attacked him without any legal provocation.

Unless the store clerk, or McGlockton's girlfriend or someone can show that McGlockton was acting out of a reasonable fear for someone else's life or health, McGlockton is the aggressor and Drejka is the victim, regardless of Drejka's earlier acts and statements.

I suspect that's why the Sheriff's office kicked it up to the State Attorney, so they can fall on that hand grenade, ala Casey Anthony.  Now, Drejka is almost certainly an ahole, and made some bad decisions, so the wrong jury (or right jury) could still convict him.  They could find that his fear was unreasonable, and his previous statements and acts could add to that perception.  

I think technically he's probably on the legal side of this shoot.  
I think morally he's a racist ahole that was out looking for a fight.  
I think practically there's no way to tell where the jury's going to go.

The points De Selby is harping on are, once again, wrong or irrelevant under FL law.

The one prediction I will make about this trial with a fair bit of confidence is that CNN will try to get and publicize the juror's names.  That worked so well they won't be able to help themselves.

230RN

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #196 on: August 27, 2018, 06:45:00 PM »
Quote
De Selby, however, seems to be following his normal program of pulling one or two things from evidence, ignoring what he doesn't like, and doubling or tripling down on his preconceived notions.

Man, I hate to sink to arguing on a personal level, but that just about sums up my thinking about De Selby's contributions to this discussion.  Mea culpa.

My summation?

1.  Antecedent stupidities have nothing to do with this incident.

2.  Antecedent police records have nothing to do with this incident.

3.  Antecedent discussion with the woman had nothing to do with this incident.

4.  My first impression of McGlockton's movements were that he was getting ready for a follow-up kicking and stomping attack.

5.  Subsequent viewings made me reconsider but not reject point 4, and I could understand that it might well have reasonably looked that way from the point of view of the person who had been violently shoved down to the ground.

6.  Absent a clear confession of premeditated intent from the shooter, this was legally a good shoot under most definitions of fear of severe bodily harm or death.

7.  Don't be such a jerk, whether you're carrying or not.

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 07:00:06 PM by 230RN »
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KD5NRH

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #197 on: August 27, 2018, 06:47:27 PM »
What are you seeing that we're missing?

Remember who you're asking; do you really want to hear all about the green-sky land of the chipmunk people?  His world probably looks like some scene the Rick and Morty producers deleted as "too incomprehensible."

De Selby

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #198 on: August 27, 2018, 09:26:21 PM »
Many of you are missing the salient point here, and it’s not a theoretical one - past actions absolutely can be used to say something about your state of mind in a self defence shooting.

The problem and the relevance of these past incidents isn’t that they show Drejka is a toolbag.

What’s important is that in a trial where the video divides opinions even on the most presumptively favourable to ccs shooting boards, he will have to show that his state of mind was fear, and that he shot someoen backing away out of fear.

But that’s going to be a problem - because there’s a history of his behaviour in very similar circumstances that suggests his decision to shoot was motivated by retaliation, anger, and racism. The argument will be made, not unreasonably, that he should’ve seen McGlockton backing away, but chose to follow him with his pistol sights in order to carry out his clearly indicated “looking for an excuse” fantasy.

The analogy is being a homeowner with “trespassers will be shot” signs, and a history of pulling guns on jehovahs witnesses.  If one day the police show up to find a body at your house, of course you’ll say “I was afraid for my life.”  But they’re going to look at your past conduct and, if it looks like you were itching to shoot someone, there’s a much higher chance they’ll let the jury decide whether to believe you.

And in making a call, that jury is highly likely to hear about how you’ve behaved in those circumstances in the past.
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Ron

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Re: It's legally a good shoot, but
« Reply #199 on: August 27, 2018, 09:51:46 PM »
Will the dead thugs history of crime and violence be allowed in court as evidence of his mindset?

Or will mind reading only be allowed to be used by the prosecutors?
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