Author Topic: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico  (Read 2562 times)

MillCreek

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NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« on: July 06, 2011, 10:42:48 AM »
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/07/06/world/americas/immigration.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw


A very interesting article showing that improving economic and educational conditions in Mexico are decreasing illegal immigration to the USA as much as immigration crackdowns and economic problems in the USA. 

I think a stable and prosperous Mexico can only be to the advantage of the USA. 

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AJ Dual

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2011, 12:26:05 PM »
Definitely.

Although I've always held that limiting illegal immigration as much as possible would also help lead to a more stable and prosperous Mexico as well.

Mexico's corruption is well known, however what people don't always realize is that Mexico practices and believes in "win-lose" capitalism. The U.S., at least in theory desires "win-win" capitalisim.

The nominal U.S. capitalist thinks, "If my workers get ahead, someone else will come along and take their job, and the now wealthy worker who got ahead and left is either a potential customer, or at least an economic pump that makes the business climate better for everyone."

The nominal Mexican capitalist thinks, "If my workers get ahead, I will not have cheap labor anymore, and my business will go under."

It's not exactly that concise, and of course, all rules have exceptions, but I feel it's a distillation of the long standing cultural attitudes of both nations. And Mexico's land, property, deed, mortgage, and contract laws tend to favor the established wealthy over the up and coming in a myriad of subtle ways.

And what happens is that instead of resisting the status quo, or fueling reforms, those with the desire to change their circumstances can come to the U.S. instead of fighting for change at home. We've become Mexico's pressure relief valve that prevents meaningful change at home.
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longeyes

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2011, 01:00:59 PM »
Why should Mexicans stay in Mexico when they consider the U.S. to be an extension of their own nation?  When ten per cent of Mexico already lives here and has roots here?  Sure, many Mexicans would prefer to be in Mexico, many of them, but as we saw from the recent U.S.-Mejico soccer match a whole lot already believe they ARE in Mexico.

When the PEMEX fields run down--and they are in the process of rapid depletion--you will see another, even bigger wave of northward migration.

I think it's time for Americans to be grimly realistic about the scope and gravity of this problem and what's going to be required to do anything about it.  Hint: replace a regime that has told its immigration arm to ignore any illegals who aren't serious felons and to invent new reasons why illegals can't be deported (minor children, etc.).
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MicroBalrog

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2011, 01:16:46 PM »
Quote
Why should Mexicans stay in Mexico when they consider the U.S. to be an extension of their own nation? 

And yet they do. Perhaps something in the theory is wrong.
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Gowen

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2011, 02:31:59 PM »
And yet they do. Perhaps something in the theory is wrong.

The theory isn't wrong:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atzlan  Circumstances create different variables.  Look at the US 2010 census: http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=thab1  The American southwest is being populated by Mexican immigrants.  Notice I said populated, not repopulated.  Prior to the American expansion, the area was populated by indians (I did not say native Americans, they just arrived earlier than the Europeans,) not Mexicans.  The Apache and Navaho did their best to keep the Mexicans out of the American southwest.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2011, 02:53:30 PM »
I doubt very much this Atzlan idea - which I am aware of - is very popular among the less-educated segment of Mexican society. I suggest many of them are mostly interested in getting a job mowing someone's lawn and sending money home to their family, or finagling themselves into a legal status.
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Balog

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2011, 03:26:32 PM »
I doubt very much this Atzlan idea - which I am aware of - is very popular among the less-educated segment of Mexican society. I suggest many of them are mostly interested in getting a job mowing someone's lawn and sending money home to their family, or finagling themselves into a legal status.

And you base this theory on...?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2011, 04:22:30 PM »
And you base this theory on...?

General reading on the subject, the media, etc. I cannot cite chapter and verse of research on this topic, of course.

How do you explain this news item in a way that is consistent with the theory that illegal immigration is motivated primarily by ideology and not life quality?
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AJ Dual

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2011, 04:56:39 PM »
I doubt very much this Atzlan idea - which I am aware of - is very popular among the less-educated segment of Mexican society. I suggest many of them are mostly interested in getting a job mowing someone's lawn and sending money home to their family, or finagling themselves into a legal status.

I'm sure that's it... nothing political or ideological about it at all.   =|

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Gowen

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2011, 04:57:24 PM »
Yes, you are correct in the notion that mexicans come to the US legally and illegally for economic and social (to escape the crime) reasons.   Where you are wrong is in discounting the atzlan movement among mexicans already here.  They are quite militant.  Yes, it is popular among the less-educated, but most of the immigrants coming to the US are poorly educated.

It isn't much different that the Palestinians claiming rights to all of Israel.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 05:01:45 PM by Gowen »
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Balog

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2011, 05:26:13 PM »
General reading on the subject, the media, etc. I cannot cite chapter and verse of research on this topic, of course.

How do you explain this news item in a way that is consistent with the theory that illegal immigration is motivated primarily by ideology and not life quality?

I never said that. However, it is possible to be passionate about something, and not have it be the primary motivation for your actions. Coming to America for a job does not prevent someone from thinking that America was stolen from your oppressed ancestors and is your racial birthright.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2011, 05:42:57 PM »
It isn't much different that the Palestinians claiming rights to all of Israel.

Exactly. The average West Bank inhabitant could care less for Hamas or its antics. The idea that the average Palestinian lives and breathes to murder Jews is a figment of the imagination.
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brimic

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2011, 05:54:40 PM »
The Mexicans will want to reconquer the SW United States right up to the point where the social welfare benefits are cut off, and unfortunately sugar daddy Uncle Sam is more than willing hand out the candy along with some of the state governments.

Come here to work? I'm all for it.

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AJ Dual

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Re: NYT article on decreasing illegal immigration from Mexico
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2011, 06:20:53 PM »
I do agree with the "most of them are here to work" and there is a certain amount of truth to the "doing the jobs American (welfare recipients) won't do" too. Despite my Aztlan concerns, I do take it with a pinch of salt, recognizing many Americans felt the same way about Irish and Italian and other non-Western European/non-Protestant immigrants too, which now seems absurd. So a few generations, and some upward mobility, many of these people will become, "good Americans".

Although, I will point out that the previous LEGAL waves of immigration from Europe and even Asia in the American west were generally one-way trips, with limited ties to their homeland separated by entire oceans, and no modern communications, or just the earliest telegraphs, which were expensive and rare and still did not connect to their place of origin. These factors all helped force assimilation into the greater American culture to one degree or another.

These Mexican and Latin American ILLEGAL immigrants live right across a rather porous border, and maintain much stronger economic and familial ties with 'home' which I believe is retarding assimilation greatly. (Criminals fleeing to Mexico, coming and going, bringing over different groups of family back and forth etc...)

However, I'm still okay with the deal but only if the U.S. can export our "native" inner city welfare class to Mexico on a one-for-one trade basis.  =)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 06:24:20 PM by AJ Dual »
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