Why terrorism is so darned effective

[P95Carry]

So - here we are again - London this time.  I rejoice as a Dad that my daughter is safe, because since being a Mom she no longer commutes to Russell Square station, as she did when an editor for a magazine.  I am equally sickened tho as I think of the other Dad's who are this day mourning the loss of a son or daughter.

I reflect also on the almost inevitable success - and I use that word with reserve - the terrorists have again gained.  Apart from breaking bodies into little pieces - terrorism's prime goal it seems is to instill fear - uncertainty and also we might add, further constrictions on the freedoms of the law abiding folks (in the name of security).

We all lose - in some shape or form - this is what is so GD frustrating about it - and angering.  And yet how do we deal with the perps?  Gut reaction is a sorta ''kill em all'' - and yet the bad guys are statistically a (relatively) small number but made very obvious thru their actions.  Because of the ''blood lust'' that follows these events tho - yet again, yes, the perp's - kill em all!!

I cannot tho see this achieving too much other than maybe stepping nearer to WWIII - but how to find and identify the actual perp's? - that is the problem.  Made worse perhaps by a seeming low key condemnation of them by their countrymen.  I predict that once another ''event'' occurs here - and it most surely will I fear - then it could well be open season on any and all ''suspects'', because we are NOT going to take much more of this intimidation, without something breaking.  Profiling will be public domain.

To return to the prime subject matter - whether folks like to admit it or not - the terrorists have won - again.  I seek retribution - awful and violent retribution but even that is part of their grand scheme ... put simply - ''screwing with free society'' - and that I regret saying, they do far too well.  I should add- however, we WILL NOT BE beaten!

I have a spare flame suit if anyone wishes to take issue!

[Standing Wolf]

I cannot tho see this achieving too much other than maybe stepping nearer to WWIII...

We've been in a world war some while now. The question's not whether to get involved but whether to win. So far, we've done naught but dither.

[grampster]

On another thread I have recommended treating the Islamo Fascists as they treat us, use their own twisted rules and apply them liberaly to them.  None of our freedoms apply to them and I suggest we start today.  We need to forget for a time that we are civilized and do what is necessary.

[P95Carry]

SW - I hear ya - but what I mean by WWIII is an extension - an escalation.  Many have the thought - turn the middle East into a glass wasteland - tempting!.  I cannot tho see a major event like that promoting anything else but a sustained (potential) exchange and all that might follow.

How we can be selective I know not but - mass extinction can only generate IMO a major war status - not just the ''we are at war'' current situation.  All countries take sides - and when the nasty sticky stuff encounters the round whirly thing - choices need made.  Then who thows what at whom becomes very important.  We cannot ignore China and N Korea - who I feel would love an excuse if things ''went nuclear'' to lay it on us.  of course we would answer back probably ten-fold.  But then what next?

More of the same maybe - wars are so easy to start but buggers to finish.  I am maybe being a severe pessimist and cynic - bit it comes with age.

[Guest]

Why terrorism is so darned effective?


--
com·pla·cen·cy   Audio pronunciation of "Complacency" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (km-plsn-s)
n.

   1. A feeling of contentment or self-satisfaction, especially when coupled with an unawareness of danger, trouble, or controversy.
   2. An instance of contented self-satisfaction.
--

People are complacent.  People do not want to think Terrorism can happen to them. It will happen to someone else - in another area. Be it being stalked, phone harrassment, abusive spouse, sexual offender living in the neighborhood,  the bombing in the UK , our 9/11, or OKC bombings.

People think others will "play by the rules" , BAD people will not do harm to bldgs, train staitons, hopitals, places of worship, shopping centers - anywhere.

--

News locally has a story causing a real stink. TV station reporter and camera crew walked right into our Train Station. Trains runs at night, closed during the day. The door was unlocked, reporter went into the cargo area, and noboddy still was to be found. Two utility workers had been given keys to do some work. NO supervison, they went back to work and ignored the TV Reporter. Local police, TSA, Homeland Security were all called. Investigations are on-going, still last heard no K9s dispateched to check out the station.

WE have surveillance cameras, people want to "think" they are safe. They do not take any responsiblity for their own safety.

Terroists, sex offenders, abusive spouses, and BAD persons all count on folks being complacent about their own safety.

Seems to have worked for the BAD element so far hasn't it?

--

I took mom to the grocery store today. Some "youths" were out front making some folks feel uneasy. I stayed b/t mom and them getting her into store. I must of had "that attitude"  or "look".  The Security Guard ( off duty Sheriff deputy) had called in suspicious activity.  Well it seems the youths backed away and left in 3 vehicles before the Calvary showed up.
"Son, I was watching you as I made the call. You had a look of "don't you dare".
"Say aren't you the guy that did the shotgun deal with me and some buds once?
"Oh hell..., they best be glad they didn't pull something and you can't CCW a shotgun"

Don't be complacent.  

I try to avoid being "somewhere", then again I have a right to take mom to grocery store, I am not gonna run, hide and live in fear. That is what BAD folks count on.  They don't  count on folks being in a mad dog mean " I ain't  giving in attitude."

Screw Homland Security, TSA and all that crap.  Everyone is armed, everywhere, no restrictions on planes , trains, buses, properties like hospitals, schools...etc.

Level the playing field I say.  Terror is not knowing  who is , whom is not packing.

Our old Sheriff many years ago STOPPED armed robbery of convience stores. He installed  One way glass, bullet - proof  "cubicles" in various convience stores.

All convience stores had a sign and all the media let if be known there may or may not be an armed LEO behind that mirror. You take a chance of robbing the clerk - you take the chance of being shot dead.

Armed robberies of convience stores - stopped.  Controversial, caught flak, eventually stopped ...for awhile, we had no robberies.  Good Guys Instilled TERROR upon the BAD guys.

[Preacherman]

The real problem with terrorism is that it's not terrorism at all - it's the complete absence of any sort of moral compunction against committing mass murder.  "Terrorism" is a misnomer - we're talking crime here, not politics.  Unless and until we can get the world to treat it as criminal activity, we're going to lose.  It's the same with liberals trying to pass "hate crime" legislation - there ain't no such thing as "hate crime", there's simply murder, assault, etc.  Whether or not these crimes are committed because the perpetrators dislike the victim's skin color, or sexual orientation, or anything else, they remain the same crime, and need to be treated as such.

The societies within which terrorists move (as in Mao's "fish in the sea" analogy) need to be brought to a point where they recognize crime for what it is.  At the moment, they make excuses for terrorism on the grounds that it's not really "crime", it's "political expression" or "resistance" or "activism" or some garbage like that.  Only when crime is recognized for what it is, irrespective of motivation, can we begin to win the war on terror where it counts.

[Moondoggie]

I hear 'Ya Chris.  Been running this around in my brain housing group quite a bit lately, too.  Kinda like a Rubik's Cube.

Nuke 'em all, take their oil?  Not gonna happen.

Send strike teams into whatever country and drag the Wahabbi Clerics who foster the Jihad mindset out into the street and cap them (and all their students) in front of their Medrazza?  Also not gonna happen.

Send strike teams into whatever country and wipe out the families/village of confirmed terrorists?  Not gonna happen either.

The Israeli's have tried option 2 & 3 to no avail.

I think we ought to bring home our troops from Germany and S Korea and use them to seal the borders (North AND South).  Then we need to do a massive roundup (and yes, I'm talking about profiling) of any suspected foreigners within our borders.  They either prove their citizenship/legal residency or they're on a flight back to point of origin muy pronto, like within 72 hrs.  Make the penalties for harboring/employing a (fugitive) illegal alien draconian as all get out.  It is important to note that the wall that the Israeli's built brought bombings in Tel Aviv to a screeching halt.  I think preventing them from entering/residing in our country is the only way to minimize the risk to our populace.

I don't think we can ever do anything to change the mindset that motivates these terrorists.  "Policing" these mongrels can only be accomplished by folks in their own culture.  We have to find a way to make the general population in the middle east not only renounce terrorism, but actively work to eradicate the radical fundamentalists from their midst.

Carrot?   Stick?  Both?  Neither?  I just don't know.  

I DO know that we need to do something BEFORE there's acutally REAL BLOOD in our streets.  Closing the borders and enforcing our immigration laws aggressively is a good start.

[Felonious Monk/Fignozzle]

Moondoggie -- "I DO know that we need to do something BEFORE there's acutally REAL BLOOD in our streets.  Closing the borders and enforcing our immigration laws aggressively is a good start."
+1

I read (maybe via a link at THR) an interesting commentary about how Islam is now where Christianity was in the 12th century A.D.
The fervor of new converts and the belief that we should "get 'em all saved or kill the infidels" is where a large percentage of fundamentalist Islam seems to be in the 21st century A.D.

We're headed eventually to mirror Israel; a pretty young girl in a cotton print dress and an AR-15 slung over her back hopping on the bus headed to work.
Welcome to the jungle.

[Phyphor]

On another thread I have recommended treating the Islamo Fascists as they treat us, use their own twisted rules and apply them liberaly to them.  None of our freedoms apply to them and I suggest we start today.  We need to forget for a time that we are civilized and do what is necessary.

Precisely.  Do you offer your hand again to a dog who has bitten you, or do you get a gun and make sure he doesn't go for your throat this time?

[grampster]

"Concealed Carry" adds the element of the fear of the uknown into the criminal.  That's one thing and it is a good thing and it works.  sm hits the nail on the head.
We need to apply that same principal in the "War on Terror".  But first we need to display what we have and convince that we have the will to use it, if necessary.  We started to do that in A'stan and Iraq, but stopped.  Ok, maybe we need to crank it back up.  That is going to mean playing by the rules that the terror mongers would hold us to.  Let's start playing by the rules they live by and let's see who the big dog really is.  When are the powers that be going to understand that playing nice by using Western Civilized rule of law will not get us anywhere except another Hundred Year War?

Preacherman, it ain't never gonna happen convincing despots in certain parts of the world that certain behavior is criminal and somehow they will acknowledge that and get a handle on "terrorism".  I would love to believe that, but history says the only way to fight fire is with more fire, bigger fire.  We have the fire but not the will, so far.  Bill Clinton let Bin Laden slip through his fingers because "he had done nothing criminal" so we had no reason to take him when offered. I submit the rule of law and our Constitution and BoR do not extend in one iota to theses creatures.  If we are going to keep talking about it, fine.  But straight talk must be demanded.  We need to tell the left that they are entitled to speak all they want, but what they are saying is gibberish.  We know what these murderous Islamo-fascist tribal feudalists want:  Us dead and our culture destroyed or in thrall.  If that means we need, as a result, to do things that are horrible to contemplate, then I say let's get on with it.  The sooner it is over, the better for everyone.
I'm sorry again if I appear bloodthirsty.  But after watching the reaction of the West to the cowardly attacks in London, and the evil gloating being done by Satan's children, I'm just angry and sick of being embarrased by the so called "leaders" of the West.

[Azrael256]

I read (maybe via a link at THR) an interesting commentary about how Islam is now where Christianity was in the 12th century A.D.

Guys, please stop saying that.  It's something akin to saying that internal combustion engines are now where printing presses were in about 1495.  The Muslim theocracies are far different now than the Christian theocracies were back then.  Back then, Christianity was the only driving force behind any semblance of western government in the wake of the collapse of the Roman Empire.  Today, Islam is the driving force behind theocracies that are seriously ticked about missing the jump to the nation-state while they watch us, India, and the more modern Asian states progress to the next step.  These "Islam needs a reformation" and "Islam is where Christianity was in Century" come from the "ODTAA" (One Damn Thing After Another) school of history.  These concepts are based solely on the similarities between specific events and not the trends in government and strategy that drive the events.

The reason that terrorism is so darned effective is because we've progressed beyond that particular strategic and governmental model.  Twice, actually (some say only once, but I consider anything after the Peace of Paris to be past the nation-state).  What we now call terrorism is simply an offshoot of the state-nation strategic view.  It is a far different issue in today's world because we have to protect ourselves against threats which cannot be stopped simply by large numbers of men and tanks.

The Muslim world advanced from basically nothing to the state-nation model when we (the Brits, really) brought them the new concept in WWI.  The problem is that by the time they had the money to progress any further, when oil was discovered and made profitable for them after WWII, we had already moved well into the nation-state model.  Rather than bust their butts to move into the new system, like Japan, they made the conscious decision to stop their governmental development, and in many cases they devolved.

The probability of a nation either committing, sponsoring, or allowing a terrorist act is not dependent on their Muslim population.  We have an enormous Muslim population here in the US, and they're just ordinary folks to us.  Their kitchens smell different, and their churches sound different, but we're a country that makes it a point not to care about that.  We were a nation state, and now we're becoming a market state.  Both models are dependent on the government discarding any acknowledgement of race, creed, color, etc.

So look at countries that actually do commit, sponsor, and allow terrorism: Saudi Arabia is ruled by an oligarcy.  They're only just barely a state-nation.  Iraq was ruled by a man who established himself as a ruler of a territorial state.  Iraq functioned on the same level as European states did when they made the conversion to standing professional armies that defended a line-on-a-map border.  Syria functions in a very similar way.  Lebanon has no government to speak of.  They're something like a princely state.  Afghanistan worked in a similar manner.  If you hear the term "warlord" in reference to a state, they're probably a princely state.  Jordan was beginning to catch up because King Hussein had figured out that the days of the king were numbered and was just fine with it.  Hopefully they will continue that way.  Egypt is in the same boat.  That's why we're not hearing much out of them in terms of anti-western rhetoric.  All of the states involved in terrorism have one thing in common: they missed out on the developments in constitutional order and strategy that the western world (and much of Asia) is now enjoying.

The solution is simple, but nobody seems to want to try it.  We offer the terrorist states our new model, and hope they accept.  Some of them will.  Some of them already are accepting it.  If they don't, we make it abundantly clear that we will tolerate absolutely nothing from them.  If they decide to blow up anything, shoot people in an airport, or generally make asses of themselves, we let slip the Devil Dogs of war.

[TarpleyG]

Maybe a topic for another thread but don't you all find it somewhat amusing that with all the video surveillance and national ID cards in London, these terrorists were still able to pull somethink like this, ona scale this big?  Does our government honestly believe that these "measures" are really going to do anything but make the sheep "feel" safe?

Greg

[BobCat]

After Munich (1973), the Israelis tracked down and eliminated the people behind the attack.  I can't say it did much to end terror attacks in Israel, but it sent a message to "proceed at your own risk" and it did take some effective players out of the game (until new ones took their places).

Azrael256 - you think and write clearly.  I'll be looking to read whatever you add on this topic.

Chris (P95) - This is noting compared to the blitz.  London is stirred up now, but in a few months it will be back to life as usual.  The terrorists *did not* win - they landed a blow, but didn't knock anybody out.  Yes, they killed and injured some people, and my heart goes out the the families of those people - but, just as New York after 911, the city, the organism, lives on - not unaffected, but not staggered either.  Hang in there.

[Sean Smith]

Terrorism of this sort is a great tactic, but a worthless strategy.

If you have no moral constraints that we can recognize, and all you want to do is kill bunches of people, it is just too easy to slip through the cracks in society for a one-way mission.  Sit down and think about how easy it would be for you to just start killing people... not morally easy, but just as a thing to do instead of going to work.   How many could you kill?  How long could you avoid the cops?  Some have done it for years, decades, and those are criminals without national sponsors like terrorists often have.  At the scale of small groups of scum in a sea of tens or hundreds of millions of people in a country, terrorism is just too easy.  

If individual serial killers, acting on their own, with no state sponsors, not to mention being mentally ill to some degree or another, can rack up kill counts rivaling many terrorist attacks, what does that say about how how brain-dead easy it is to be a terrorist?

The only way to not make it so, really, is to institute a police state that makes Big Brother look like Calvin Coolidge, and even that won't really work.

On the other hand, terrorism like this doesn't really DO anything.  The prospect of it causing anything remotely like the crazy-assed objectives of Al-Qaeda to come true are nil.  They might as well go kill people in London to make licorice sticks magically sprout from their nostrils.  It is horrible, but also utterly ridiculous.  Is Coca-Cola going to be replaced by Allah Cola, and Baywatch reruns replaced with Burqawatch?  Are the Royal Marine Commandos going to be transformed into the Wahabbi Fashon Police just because they are already wearing green hats?

[Moondoggie]

Azrael & Sean make excellent points.

Whatever goals these terrorists aspire to are totally unattainable, and they know it.  A few thousand random murders are simply not going to reshape global politics/economics/religion into a model that suits their mindset.  Even if we all converted to Islam, they'd still murder those who they deemed "Not Muslim Enough" to suit whatever despot you might run afoul of.

If we go "heavy-handed" it fosters more terrorism.  If we do nothing it fosters more terrorism.

Blood in the streets in their hometown is better than blood in the streets in my hometown.  Especially since we're not the real agressors in the first place.

I'm thinking we ought to create a "Mayhem without borders" force.   Predator drones, cruise missiles, special ops raids....go after them without mercy and keep THEM guessing what WE'RE gonna do next instead of worrying so much about what THEY are planning.  It frosts me that we haven't gone in to wherever Osama is hiding out and laid waste to anybody who points a weapon in our direction until we find him.  Then we need to drag his carcass through the streets and hang what's left from a bridge for all the media to see.  There's your "Due Process".  Then provide aid to rebuild what we destroyed along with the stern warning..."Cross us again and we'll be back".  Machiaveli makes some good points.  The local folks up there in the mountains will clearly grasp this concept..don't pick a fight with 3 Mike Tysons.  This is what we need to do to get average folks in the middle east to "dime-out" the Islamo-Facists among them out of an interest in self-preservation.

We need to tell the world that the gloves are coming off...stand-by!  Tell Amnesty International, the ACLU, and all like minded groups to piss-off.

[Werewolf]

yet the bad guys are statistically a (relatively) small number

People - especially bleeding hearts - really want to believe that the BG's are small in number but it simply isn't true.

The folks that feed these scum money are just as guilty.
The folks who knowingly feed and house them are just as guilty.
The folks who know what they do and don't turn them in to the authorities are just as guilty.
The parents who raised them and know what they are doing are just as guilty.

The numbers add up and IMO they aren't small. We are at war with everyone who either directly or indirectly supports these animals.

AND whether you like it or not that is the majority of Islam.

The west is in a holy war with Islam. Sooner or later the pacifists, the bleeding hearts, the hold their hands and give 'em all a big hug because their mommies never did crowd and yes even our PC leaders will come to realize this.

Hopefully the realization will come before it is too late.

Regardless - eventually there will be a knock down drag out war - West vs Islam. Whether or not it engulfs the world depends on how long it takes the blissninnies to understand that immoral animals and not human beings are our enemies. You shoot mad dogs and any other dog that might have been infected by them. We can do it now or later but we're gonna end up having to do it.

[P95Carry]

Thx for all the input.  I guess when I say the terrorists ''win'' it is less the fact that they have won any sort of battle but they HAVE thru their acts created change.  Sure, we and the Brits will NOT be intimidated and resolve is indeed strengthened but - bottom line - compared with these events never having happened, we ARE in an altered state and not one or our choosing.

For me the worst effects are brought about by ''security'' changes - which are of course meant to help protect against repeated attacks.  They do in fact have little useful effect other than to stifle and maybe permanently limit freedoms.  Some will say that is a price worth paying - that is debateable.

''They'' want to make the Western way of life more difficult, and erosion of freedoms is certainly one result as we find moving around thru a transportation system gets ever more difficult and frustrating.  Much of this can be labelled ''inconvenience'' fallout but hell - I sure as heck do NOT want anyone screwing with my freedoms - least of all an alien outside agency of fanatics.

Moondoggie - agree with much of your comments bud ... and Werewolf - sadly yes you are right re the ''minority aspect'' - the more I think on it.  I did use the word ''relatively'' re smaller numbers but indeed there is or has to be a framework around the actual perp's.  Those who support, finance and train them etc.

I am aware as ever that this is an ''us vs them'' deal - the divide is uncrossable, and so conflict is inevitable.  I am not at all sure what the next five years holds in terms of scale but we'd better realize that things are maybe only just warming up:(

[Guest]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Terrorist

Terrorist:
n.
 One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.

adj : characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

----
civ·i·lize   Audio pronunciation of "civilized" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sv-lz)
tr.v. civ·i·lized, civ·i·liz·ing, civ·i·liz·es

   1. To raise from barbarism to an enlightened stage of development; bring out of a primitive or savage state.
   2. To educate in matters of culture and refinement; make more polished or sophisticated.

civi·liza·ble adj.
civi·lizer n.


civ·i·lized   Audio pronunciation of "civilized" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sv-lzd)
adj.

   1. Having a highly developed society and culture.
   2. Showing evidence of moral and intellectual advancement; humane, ethical, and reasonable: terrorist acts that shocked the civilized world.
   3. Marked by refinement in taste and manners; cultured; polished.


----

Excellent points made.

In my thinking "Criminals"  , which these folks are in my opinion, are not wired like sane folks.  Insane due to mental defect, or mob mentality.  Perhaps both.  Caught  up in whatever  drives them to a goal.

"Civilized" Societies have always looked down on others if not as civil and themselves. Hell we have branches of Military or LEOs that look down on one another.  A Federal LEO is "better" than a State LEO and the State is better than small town LEO.

Common Folks do this as well. Remember the Old West?  We had towns that decided to keep the Riff Raff out of the towns with guns. They wanted the revenue from the Saloons and Whores, - they were more Civilized than other towns because one had to take off their guns and leave with the Sheriff.

Citizens became complacent . Sheriff had the guns, and since the sign coming into town read to leave guns with Sheriff - they were safe.

Then the Riff Raff came into town, shot the place up, shot folks and killed them. While the civilized were wringing hand and burying the dead - the Sheriff and Posse went to find the Riff Raff.

Riff Raff was either brought to trial - or hung.  The messages: Riff Raff pay no attention to signs. Riff Raff find out they will be hunted and hung think twice about entering a town.

Riff Raff were more afraid of the lonely house in the country [ the less civilized than the town folks, saloon keepers and whores] - why - because the folks from kids, to ladies to menfolk kept firearms loaded and knew how- and would shoot tresspassers. They knew if they the Riff Raff were shot tresspassing - the "Law" was against them.

Even a code of honesty existed amongst Riff Raff back  then.  You ride up upon another Riff Raff camp - one spoke out and asked permission to come into camp.

Today we have a civilized society. Some areas more civil than others *ahem*.  Just like yesteryear, fireams are not allowed, gated cummunities and such, and the Riff Raff of today know darn well gates, cameras, and such do nothing to stop or deter - only gives the folks a feeling of safety.

The areas where folks are being responsible, are allowed to have firearms, even required to have firearms, and laws exist to not prosecute the victims - have less problems.

Folks do not want to accept Bad is part of life. Be it bad folks , or the Bad that every person has to be mean enough to protect what is theirs. Look at nature, look what a female will do to protect the young.

This denial that the world has evil and denial that folks can do much to protect themselves - is aiding terrorists and Riff Raff.  Always has, always will.

[Werewolf]

In my thinking "Criminals"  , which these folks are in my opinion, are not wired like sane folks.  Insane due to mental defect, or mob mentality.  Perhaps both.  Caught  up in whatever  drives them to a goal.

Except that Islamo-Terrorists are not criminals nor are they insane.

These guys were spawned by a different culture with different laws and a different morality. What we call terrorists they call soldiers of GOD.

Are they soldiers? In their eyes they are and they should be in our eyes too because as long as we consider them criminals and fight them as such we will continue to lose.

They don't fight by our rules but they are no less soldiers. And though their methods and targets are abhorent to the West, never the less they are soldiers albeit not ones tied to a national flag as are traditional soldiers. They have strategic goals. They use firepower, tactics, logistics and planning in an attempt to achieve their strategic goals.

In most battles it is the aggressor that defines when and how a battle will be faught and thus the aggressor usually has the military initiative. The current set of tactics that the Islamo-terrorists use have taken the tactical initiative (and the strategic initiative too IMO) away from the West. Battlefield initiative is a most important thing to have and the Islamo-terrorists have it. That's why they get to make the rules and pick the where, how and when.

To defeat the terrorists a strategic goal must be developed and I don't think that has been done. What's the goal, stop them, contain them, kill them? Beats me but what ever the goal is will determine how it is achieved.

Whether we like it or not we have to change our tactics, take back the initiative, think outside of the standard way to fight a war box, devise a plan and execute it. If it doesn't work figure out why, change tactics and execute. Rinse and repeat until we've developed a winning plan that will lead to victory.

Until we do that the strategic goal (which hasn't been defined by anyone or any government to the best of my knowledge) cannot be achieved.

Unfortunately what it takes to win may not be compatible with western law and morality. It that turns out to be the case then we may as well all buy Korans, prayer rugs and a compass now.

[Guest]

My HS English Senior Theme was a Contrast/ Comparison of Orwell's "1984" and Sir Thomas More's "Utopia".

Throughout history "man" has sought a "perfect world" be it while alive , or in an afterlife. This seeking spans every culture, every religion, and even the agnostic and atheist - want some definition of "peace and serenity",while alive or whatever happens when they are dead -- or by definition not doing what conscious of doing whilst thinking about such matters.

"Man" never seems to be satisfied. Manages to screw up somehow. Wants to control, wants others to qualify his belief system - even if that mean forcing upon them the acceptance of their beliefs.

"Man" wants to feel superior to other "men". The easiest way to build up one's esteem - is to tear down another persons belief or belief system. . Definitons of "right" or "wrong" do not really come into play. I am sure some Cave man belittled another for using fire to keep warm, or cook food, while he felt using fur from a animal and eating fruit was better.

I am sure one caveman group of hunters preferred rocks, another using pointy sticks, whilst another felt digging a deep hole and covering with leaves and such was best.

Terror. Terror was the critter that hunted man, that would eat man. Disruted normal activities of daily living - Terror is still defined as such.

Technologies change ,still we have citters that hunt man and cause Terror. Elephants stomp folks to death in a village, Lions and Tigers enter villages and carry of the young and attack the old. Rock, Stick, Pit, what does one do to feel safe about Terror?

Critters do not know that they are to fear modern technologies. Critters do have a sense about natural dangers and disasters, they flee fire, flood, and such. They have no idea the difference of a modern rifle,or ammo...they do not know they are to be afraid of a new gun design or bullet.

One often forgets to think on the level of the Critter, just as an adult must talk to the level of a child.

 Introduce a Predator to a Critter in which the Critter is now the prey - and the Critter understands that, he has then become the hunted, natural survival instincts take over.

Like a disease, one has to educate themselves about the disease, and what steps to take to remedy the disease. It even gets to the point where a body part is removed to rid the whole body of the disease.

 One can deny all they want they have a disease, have a pretty room full of flowers , balloons and cards - they are still gonna die.  Feeling "safe" because a room is sterile does not mean you will not die. I know, the quietiest quiet I have ever experienced is when I worked in a OR. Patient was alive one second, the machines and people were making life saving noises - then the patient dies, everything is removed, everyone leaves, just you and the deceased - quiet.

Folks say let some "men" have a taste of freedom and modern western culture, and they will change. Others say let them hit bottom , pull out and let them fight amongst themselves.

What someone does that does no harm to me is none of my business. I have said if the gangbangers and thugs want to shoot each other - find a plot of land, furnish them guns and ammo, and let them have it. As long as they stay to themselves - they will be left alone. Just bulldoze the dead from time to time.

Terrorists are in today's world invading the privacy of others. Coming into their yard. They do not understand nor do they want to understand the perspectives of others. They want to instill fear, cause disruptions of societies - makes no nevemind if one agrees with that society or belief system - the fact someone is coming into their yard and messing in it does.

I shoot rabid critters on sight. They instill fear to kids and property owners. They cause disease and death of pets and farm animals. They have no  idea or conception if I use a new or older firearm design, or bullet. They do not always understand the death of one of their own, sometimes they flee from noise, sometimes they rush me.

Let all persons everywhere be armed. Let them NOT be tried for having or carrying arms. Planes, trains,buses, any conveyance, anywhere. Now the first time a person steps onto a city subway with a bomb and is shot and killed and then viewed on TV for all the world to see, let us see what message that sends. I have always said allowing persons to turn to a station and viewing thugs being hung, shot, or injected would be a deterrent. Let some gangbanger see on TV one of his own was shot attempting to rob another.

I would not fight fair. I would literally destroy any place terrorist cells are known to be. I would also publicly execute any persons aiding and abetting these folks. Politicians, Affulent, Poor, young or old.

I would encourage hunting these bastards down, and kill them first - that is the only language they know. Basic law of nature - prey run from the hunter.

When the terrorist find out what it is like to be the hunted, to know terror themselves, when all is destroyed, then perhaps some peace will happen.

I would tell the politicans to shut up, let the military do their job. The media - needs to shut up, quit spinning political lies, or come home. Military has a hard enough job without making sure media is safe or gonna get them all killed with real time news of what and where they are and what they are about to do.


I am an American Citizen by birth. Some Bad guy gets ahold of me with a bomb strapped onto his torso- one of you folks better shoot the bastard, if I get hit or dead - well collateral damage happens. That is acceptable risk to me believing as I do about my Freedoms and such.

I do not want some Gubmint entity saying folks cannot carry concealed anywhere anytime. Afterall I may be the Bastard with a CCW that saves a person(s) ass at the grocery store. Citizens don't need medals and such- I damn sure don't want them. I gave or destroyed all trophies I ever had. I know what I did, I don't need any reminder- damn sure don;t want to have to dust the damn thing...or figure out where to store it. I do not feel folks need to be tried for such actions either...they have enough personal stuff to deal with the situation as is.

If the vulnerabilty is taken away...
If the Terror Tactics are not causing terror...
If the terrorist become the prey...
If folks are allowed to stand up with a backbone, and firearms everywhere...

Then Societies, Culture, Religion, and such will stay in their yard and others will stay in theirs. Accept best can, get along for commerce and such.

That "cold war" of knowing that society has the backbone, the will, the means to defend or to inflict - has always been a deterrent.

[Moondoggie]

Here's a scenario...

Terrorist cell meeting in the Middle East (or in the US):

Cell leader;  "We gave Achmed a bomb and sent him to bomb a NYC subway.  We never heard from him again until we discovered this webcast showing Achmed on his knees being shot in the back of the head by an American police officer.  Achmed looked like he'd had the living crap beat out of him before they shot him.  He publicly confessed that he attempted to murder Americans and renounced Islam and Allah before the cowardly infidels murdered him.  Then they desecrated his body...no 72 virgins in heaven for Achmed. "

"We've got another bomb ready to go...who wants to go on a mission to America and punish the infidels?"  

"C'mon guys, we're Al Quaeda...we fear nothing...guys?"

"BROTHERS!"

"Where 'Ya going???"

A trip to Gitmo or Club Fed with 3 religiously correct squares a day, a flush toilet, a prayer rug, and a Koran doesn't scare them in the least.  They know we're gonna abide by a far higher standard of conduct than they'd ever get in their own rathole country, and our media/ACLU will be there to make sure that we do.

The gloves have got to come off if we're gonna come out on top.

Edited to add:

When we were in a war for survival against the Japanese (rightly or wrongly, folks were concerned about invasion of the US...after all, they'd invaded/occupied China) we did whatever it took to win without mercy.  We used flamethrowers against their troops trapped in caves in order to reduce our own casualties and we nuked civilian cities to force them to surrender AND to prevent an anticipated million casualties on our side.  Also prevented countless civilian deaths on their side since women and children were committed to fight to the death with sticks & rocks if need be.

We need to "Reach down and get ahold of 'em" and get in the fight as if our survival depends on it.  We need to thumb 'em in the eye, kick 'em in the knee, stomp on their foot, and drop kick 'em in the nads...for starters.

[jefnvk]

Isn't their something that says that if put a muslim in pig intestines, or something of the sort, they don't go to heaven?  Why not just do that to all the suicide bombers bodies we recover.  That, and the whole pig lard covered weaponry.