EU says "no" to democracy

[Tallpine]

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5304/

Here, Brendan ONeill argues that the attack on Irish voters who are thinking of rejecting the Lisbon Treaty exposes the anti-democratic elitism at the heart of the EU. Further below, Kevin Rooney says the Lisbon referendum has re-ignited political debate in Ireland.

[Manedwolf]

This is Ireland's last chance to show they've some fighting spirit yet, their last chance to spit in the eye of the people who trampled their freedoms centuries ago.

Let's see what happens. If they are able to say "no", it will be a serious smack to the EU.

Ireland has good reason to say no. The current lower costs that have lured all sorts of companies, including software developers there, that would all be trashed by the Lisbon Treaty, they'd lose that advantage entirely.

[Tallpine]

Yeah, I'm rooting for them to bring out the pikes and pitchforks 

Saorsa no bàs !

(sorry, that's the scots variant - irish is probably a little different)

[charby]

An oldie but a goodie

An Irishman declares war!

Saddam Hussein is sitting at home when the phone rings. He picks it up and says "Hello".

The voice at the end of the phone says "Hello Mr. Hussein, it's Paddy here. I'm just ringing to let you know that we've declared war on your country."

Saddam Hussein smiles to himself, "Come on Paddy", he says, "there's no point you declaring war on us, you wouldn't stand a chance."

Paddy replies, "No, no,we've had ourselves a meeting, and we've decided to declare war on you."

So Saddam Hussein says, "OK Paddy, now listen, I've got an air force of over a thousand planes, what kind of air force have you got to match that? It'd be over in no time."

Paddy says, "Well my lad's got himself a hot-air balloon, and my brother used to work at an airport."

Hussein laughs, "Oh come on, you've not got a hope".

"Hold on a sec, Mr.Hussein, ", Paddy says, "we'll just have a quick meeting." So off he goes and has a quick meeting. "Are you still there Mr. Hussein? Yes, well we've had our meeting, and we've decided that we're still going to declare war."

Saddam Hussein says, "Right then Paddy, well you know, as well as the air force, we've also got about a thousand tanks. How are you going to match that?"

"Well," Paddy says, "I've got an old Austin, and my cousin down the road has got a tractor."

"Get real, " says Saddam Hussein, "that's no match at all."

So Paddy says, "Hold on, I'll just go and have another meeting."

"Are you still there Mr. Hussein? Yes, well we've had our meeting, and we've decided that we're still going to declare war."

Saddam Hussein thinks this is just amazing, "How many soldiers have you got Paddy?".

"Well," says Paddy, "there's me, my kid, me 4 cousins, and they all had sons, and there's Bill down the road.... I reckon I could get together about 30."

Laughing openly now Saddam Hussein replies, "Come on Paddy, I've got 10,000 highly trained fighting men at my disposal. I think you'd better go and have another meeting."

"I will", says Paddy, "I will."

"Are you still there Mr. Hussein? Yes, well we've had our meeting, and we've decided that we're not going to declare war on you after all."

"At last, " replies Saddam Hussein, "What made you change your mind?"

"Well, it's those 10 thousand soldiers you see. We can't declare war on you because we've not got the facilities to keep all those prisoners!"

[Manedwolf]

Yeah, I'm rooting for them to bring out the pikes and pitchforks 

Saorsa no bàs !

(sorry, that's the scots variant - irish is probably a little different)

Pikes and pitchforks? Heh. If they get annoyed enough in Belfast, it'd be more like "Seamus, might you still have Mister Barrett's fine products hidden away in the wall plaster?"

[Manedwolf]

Europe in turmoil as Ireland says 'no' in EU treaty referendum

By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 2:47 PM on 13th June 2008

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Irish voters have thrown the European Union into turmoil by rejecting the Lisbon Treaty in a crunch referendum.

Hours before the official tally was due to be announced, Irish Justice Minister Dermot Ahern conceded that the 'yes' camp had failed to win the day.

Mr Ahern said: 'It looks like this will be a "no" vote.

'At the end of the day, for a myriad of reasons, the people have spoken.

'We will have to wait and see what happens in the rest of the countries. Obviously if we are the only one to reject the treaty that will raise questions. We are in uncharted territories.'

The rejection will influence the ratification processes of other countries and effectively kill the Treaty dead.

An international referendums expert said Ireland was unlikely to be offered a second referendum as it was when the first Nice Treaty was rejected in 2001 but approved a year later.

Go Ireland!

[MicroBalrog]

Seriously, did they think that people who fought and bled for independence, and still remember it, would just bend over for them?

[Manedwolf]

Well, apparently a Frenchman just threatened the Irish over it.

Historically, that sort of thing has ended with a punch.

[Tallpine]

Eirinn gu brath! 

[LAK]

What this tells me that Ireland is going to be the subject of much future economic sanction. Nice to see they have a backbone though - maybe they'll hold out and disrupt the party. Or even better, break away from the EU altogether.

[The Annoyed Man]

What this tells me that Ireland is going to be the subject of much future economic sanction. Nice to see they have a backbone though - maybe they'll hold out and disrupt the party. Or even better, break away from the EU altogether.

One can always hope that they suddenly tell the EU to just sod off.

[Manedwolf]

What this tells me that Ireland is going to be the subject of much future economic sanction. Nice to see they have a backbone though - maybe they'll hold out and disrupt the party. Or even better, break away from the EU altogether.

The Irish temper (which is real!) is, to me, a positive survival trait, outrage when there is no other recourse but just outrage. It's wholly incompatible with most EU nations' milquetoast personality, doormat appeasement and political correctness in the face of threats of all sorts.

Also, the citizens of Ireland, especially the northern part, are by and large not disarmed. They just put away the toys when the Troubles were resolved, and would take them out if needed.

[Tallpine]

The Irish temper (which is real!)

Yeah, just ask my wife 

Though I claim more Scots, which is pretty much the same thing.  At least one of my ancestral lines sojourned a while in northern Ireland before coming to America in time to fight in the Revolution.


What does the EU think it's going to do - invade  

[gunsmith]

This is hilarious!
I'm surprised the papers didn't understand the Irish better.
Most Irish are very well educated and polite and very liberal/socialist.
However, they don't like being told what to do and they'll vote against the EU for a laugh, just to spite the ones scolding them.

Sean: hey Mike, your voting against that aren't ye?
Mike: Why should I?
Sean: I'll buy ye a pint and the Continentals won't like it!
Mike: Lets go, I'll get the lads.
Sean: We're getting langers tonight!

[MicroBalrog]

Most Irish are very well educated and polite and very liberal/socialist.

You're talking about one of the most free economies in the world. Don't even have a graduated income tax.

[Mabs2]

However, they don't like being told what to do and they'll vote against the EU for a laugh, just to spite the ones scolding them.

The Irish temper (which is real!).

So THAT'S where I get it from!

Mom's dad was Irish.

Or is, I guess... >_>

[LAK]

Manedwolf

Also, the citizens of Ireland, especially the northern part, are by and large not disarmed. They just put away the toys when the Troubles were resolved, and would take them out if needed.

Yup; IIRC when there were some early noises about gun bans in N. Ireland (a good while back now) a bunch of them took up there guns and firearms certificates, gathered on a piece of ground somewhere and basically shouted "Just [try] come and get them!!"

[gunsmith]

You're talking about one of the most free economies in the world. Don't even have a graduated income tax.

No, not really.
What I am talking about is a place where I lived for two years, where I got into a great deal of political debates with regular people.

The gov't may be what my friends referred to as a "Catholic Constitution"
but peoples basic outlook on life was really liberal, really Catholic, and pretty much Obama type socialist as well.

They liked both hunting and gun control, they "had friends who had friends"
Who also stashed their  "little amalite"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HafOqa3tUcI
but for the most part, everyone was really into gun control.

[Manedwolf]

Manedwolf

Also, the citizens of Ireland, especially the northern part, are by and large not disarmed. They just put away the toys when the Troubles were resolved, and would take them out if needed.

Yup; IIRC when there were some early noises about gun bans in N. Ireland (a good while back now) a bunch of them took up there guns and firearms certificates, gathered on a piece of ground somewhere and basically shouted "Just [try] come and get them!!"

Well, they ARE pretty much banned. But you'd probably find some surprising ordnance plastered up in walls and buried in cellars in Belfast. The bans didn't mean they turned them in...and there's still a lot of capable snipers there.

Oh, yeah, some of the stuck-up elitists in the EU are now pushing to either ratify without Ireland's vote, or to try to smack Ireland with a ruler, tell them they voted wrong and that they need to vote again on it.

I am getting popcorn. Go Ireland!

[LAK]

Certainly so - the british gov riding an emotional tidal wave cooked up by the media over Hungerford and Dunblane about finished off what the political change agents started. And due credit to the superbly crafted BBC, ITV, Channel 4 presentations that fueled the big wave; Saatchi & Saatchi could not have done a better job.

[LAK]

Valéry Giscard d'Estaing now publicly states what some of us have been saying all along.

A few years back former italian EU Commissioner Romano Prodi was brazen enough to publicly chide his fellow EU politicians for being shy over complete political integration and that they all knew good and well that the original 1950s Common Market was intended to go this way from the beginning .....

EU Constitution author says referendums can be ignored
By Bruno Waterfield in Brussels
Last Updated: 7:24PM BST 26/06/2008

Future referendums will be ignored whether they are held in Ireland or elsewhere, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, the architect of the European Union Constitution said.

The former President of France drafted the old Constitution that was rejected by French and Dutch voters three years ago before being resurrected as the Lisbon EU Treaty, itself shunned by the Irish two weeks ago.

Mr Giscard d'Estaing told the Irish Times that Ireland's referendum rejection would not kill the Treaty, despite a legal requirement of unanimity from all the EU's 27 member states.

"We are evolving towards majority voting because if we stay with unanimity, we will do nothing," he said.

"It is impossible to function by unanimity with 27 members. This time it's Ireland; the next time it will be somebody else."

"Ireland is one per cent of the EU".

Mr Giscard d'Estaing also admitted that, unlike his original Constitutional Treaty, the Lisbon EU Treaty had been carefully crafted to confuse the public.

"What was done in the [lisbon] Treaty, and deliberately, was to mix everything up. If you look for the passages on institutions, they're in different places, on different pages," he said.

"Someone who wanted to understand how the thing worked could with the Constitutional Treaty, but not with this one."

France and Germany are putting pressure on Ireland to hold a second referendum which would allow the Lisbon Treaty to come into force before European elections on June 4 2009.

Mr Giscard d'Estaing believes "there is no alternative" to a second Irish vote, a view shared by Nicolas Sarkozy, the French President.

Mr Sarkozy, who takes over the EU's rotating presidency next week, will use a Brussels summit on October 15 to force Ireland to find a way out of Europe's Treaty difficulties.

"Everyone agrees it has to be sorted out by the time of European elections," he said at the weekend.

Václav Klaus, the Czech President has continued to insist that the Lisbon Treaty "cannot come into force" after the Irish vote.

"The EU cannot ignore its own rules. The Lisbon Treaty has been roundly and democratically rejected by Ireland, and it therefore cannot come into force," he told El Pais newspaper.

"Any attempt to ignore this fact and make recourse to pressure and political manipulation to move the treaty forward would have disastrous consequences."

Mark François, Conservative spokesman on Europe, also insisted that it was time that European politicians started to respect the Irish No vote.

"The Irish people gave an emphatic No to the Treaty of Lisbon on a record turnout and it would be good for politicians of all countries to respect this democratic decision," he said.

"The point is particularly clear to us here in Britain as the Irish were fortunate to be given a referendum which we were denied by our Government."

An opinion poll for the newspaper Libération has shown 44 per cent of the French want Ireland to vote again and 26 per cent want the ratification process to continue without Ireland.

But a quarter of those polled want to abandon the Treaty and 52 per cent think the Irish No vote is going to dominate Mr Sarkozy's EU presidency.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2200026/EU-Constitution-author-says-referendums-can-be-ignored.html

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[Manedwolf]

Ireland needs to pull out of the EU.

I would love to see the whole thing fall apart. "NO! You voted the wrong way! Vote again!"

[Antibubba]

Must be they're learning their referendum and voting techniques from Mugabe.

[Snarlingiron]

Well, apparently a Frenchman just threatened the Irish over it.

Ha ha ha ha ha.  the French theaten the Irish?  With what?  No more Fromage?

[Werewolf]

Mr Giscard d'Estaing also admitted that, unlike his original Constitutional Treaty, the Lisbon EU Treaty had been carefully crafted to confuse the public.

"What was done in the [lisbon] Treaty, and deliberately, was to mix everything up. If you look for the passages on institutions, they're in different places, on different pages," he said.

"Someone who wanted to understand how the thing worked could with the Constitutional Treaty, but not with this one."

If that's true then HITLER has been resurected - only this time as a Frenchman and using words instead of guns to control the populace. Ahhhh... the irony of that.