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Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: roo_ster on March 25, 2011, 07:08:21 PM

Title: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: roo_ster on March 25, 2011, 07:08:21 PM
I couldn't have made this up if I tried.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/rebel-commander-in-libya-fought-against-u-s-in-afghanistan/?singlepage=true

"On his own admission, rebel leader Abdul-Hakim al-Hasadi fought American troops in Afghanistan and recruited Libyans to fight American troops in Iraq."

(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftrinities.org%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Ftriplefacepalm.jpg&hash=93557f863fb8fe32d49096fdd2079575e52164a4)

Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: kgbsquirrel on March 25, 2011, 10:31:16 PM
Sooo... we're temporarily no longer the Great Satan while we're helping him out his own country's despot?
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on March 25, 2011, 10:35:58 PM
we've switched sides in both those places at least once ourselves
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 26, 2011, 03:57:36 AM
Shimon Peres assisted with terrorist attacks against American civilian targets in Egypt.  He's what you'd call a terrorist unindicted co-conspirator. And?
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: Jamisjockey on March 26, 2011, 09:35:48 AM
Shimon Peres assisted with terrorist attacks against American civilian targets in Egypt.  He's what you'd call a terrorist unindicted co-conspirator. And?

Just another case of us sticking our noses into the affairs of the ME and Africa.  Nothing good will come of it.  See how long it took the Arab League to roll us under the bus? 
Our level of involvment in the middle east should be as follows:
Leave Isreal alone, they are our allies.  Mess with them and we'll carpet bomb your capital.
Leave us alone. Mess with us and we'll drive your people into the nearest sea.
Civil war? Fine.  Whoever wins, call us, we'd like to buy some oil.

No matter how many Harvard graduates we throw at figuring out the Middle East, we can't seem to get it right. Why is that? Perhaps because our policy of interventionisim is fail.  We don't understand the culture and the people of the Middle East.  And yes, I'm lumping Lybia into this because the way of life and thinking is still very similar from what I can gather. 
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 26, 2011, 10:10:07 AM
Again. The current President of Israel has (probably) helped orchestrate attacks on American civilians. And yet you support Israel. Why?
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: Jamisjockey on March 26, 2011, 10:13:35 AM
Again. The current President of Israel has (probably) helped orchestrate attacks on American civilians. And yet you support Israel. Why?

Because I don't support cross border invasions of surrounding countries.  Same surface reason we bailed Kuwait out in '91.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: seeker_two on March 26, 2011, 10:23:42 AM
Sooo... we're temporarily no longer the Great Satan while we're helping him out his own country's despot?

No....Islam is one of the few religions where a believer can make a deal with the Devil.....just as long as the believer doesn't keep up his end....

...someone explain what we're getting out of this?.....  ;/
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: lupinus on March 26, 2011, 10:36:04 AM
...someone explain what we're getting out of this?.....  ;/
Fuzzies

Warm fuzzies

Lots of warm fuzzies.


...and target practice I suppose
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: Sergeant Bob on March 26, 2011, 11:27:03 AM
Shimon Peres assisted with terrorist attacks against American civilian targets in Egypt.  He's what you'd call a terrorist unindicted co-conspirator. And?

Good time to cut aid to Israel since they elected a known terrorist to run the country.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: lee n. field on March 26, 2011, 12:16:22 PM
Again. The current President of Israel has (probably) helped orchestrate attacks on American civilians. And yet you support Israel. Why?

Because a significant fraction of the American electorate thinks the modern nation called Israel is God's chosen people.  To these people, Israel can do no wrong, and God will get anyone who crosses them.  

Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 26, 2011, 12:19:33 PM
Because a significant fraction of the American electorate thinks the modern nation called Israel is God's chosen people.  To these people, Israel can do no wrong, and God will get anyone who crosses them.  


Okay. Why did America allow former Nazi officers to serve in the West German military and advise it on military matters and participate in its military R&D?
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: Perd Hapley on March 26, 2011, 12:30:17 PM
Because a significant fraction of the American electorate thinks the modern nation called Israel is God's chosen people.  To these people, Israel can do no wrong, and God will get anyone who crosses them.  

Get a grip, man. Plenty of Americans support Israel for reasons other than that.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: lee n. field on March 26, 2011, 01:27:29 PM
Get a grip, man. Plenty of Americans support Israel for reasons other than that.

And plenty do support it for exactly that reason.  

(It's a hot button for me.  A particular bit of craziness close by me that I don't share.)

Quote from: microbalrog
Why did America allow former Nazi officers to serve in the West German military and advise it on military matters and participate in its military R&D?

Too big to be monolithic.  What I described is a subset of the Am. electorate.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: seeker_two on March 26, 2011, 02:05:07 PM
Okay. Why did America allow former Nazi officers to serve in the West German military and advise it on military matters and participate in its military R&D?

I think this thread has been Werner-von-Braun'ed......  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas on March 26, 2011, 02:09:39 PM
I think this thread has been Werner-von-Braun'ed......  :facepalm:
On that note:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro
 =D
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: lee n. field on March 26, 2011, 02:50:08 PM
I think this thread has been Werner-von-Braun'ed......  :facepalm:

Him too.  And there was a Nazi flying ace that was involved, or gave advice on, the design of the A-10 Warthog.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: roo_ster on March 26, 2011, 04:17:50 PM
Shimon Peres assisted with terrorist attacks against American civilian targets in Egypt.  He's what you'd call a terrorist unindicted co-conspirator. And?

And I wouldn't shed a tear if he caught a round in the melon and his body consumed by carrion-feeders?
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 26, 2011, 06:34:00 PM
Yes. Sure.

And yet there are plenty of evil people America relies upon to do good things. This won't be the first or the tenth.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: longeyes on March 26, 2011, 06:58:52 PM
We keep saying BHO is clueless.  Seems to me everything he does works to advance the fortunes of radical Islamists, the better to promote a pan-Arab Caliphate down the pike.  One by one the leaders who hold the region together (bastards though they may be) are going down, with our official blessing.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 26, 2011, 07:37:21 PM
If the alternative is the region being rendered into Somalia-like anarchy and bloody tyrants ruling forever, set loose the Tomahawks.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: RocketMan on March 26, 2011, 09:32:52 PM
Again. The current President of Israel has (probably) helped orchestrate attacks on American civilians. And yet you support Israel. Why?

As was stated before, American Christians generally have the warm fuzzies for Israel (myself included); Israel generally behaves in a civilized fashion toward us; large numbers of Israelis have not recently been screaming "Death to America" and trying to kill us in great big bleeding batches.
The occasional, rare trangression can be overlooked.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: roo_ster on March 26, 2011, 09:35:36 PM
As was stated before, American Christians generally have the warm fuzzies for Israel (myself included); Israel generally behaves in a civilized fashion toward us; large numbers of Israelis have not recently been screaming "Death to America" and trying to kill us in great big bleeding batches.

Not exactly setting the standard high.  But, like you wrote, relative to their neighbors...

Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: seeker_two on March 26, 2011, 09:41:33 PM
Again. The current President of Israel has (probably) helped orchestrate attacks on American civilians. And yet you support Israel. Why?


Probably for the same reason we fought two World Wars for a country that fought two wars against us.....we've found a way to put our past with Great Britain in the past...in order to pursue a better future....
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 26, 2011, 11:41:54 PM
Probably for the same reason we fought two World Wars for a country that fought two wars against us.....we've found a way to put our past with Great Britain in the past...in order to pursue a better future....

Exactly.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: AZRedhawk44 on March 30, 2011, 11:25:51 AM
If the alternative is the region being rendered into Somalia-like anarchy and bloody tyrants ruling forever, set loose the Tomahawks.

Bloody tyrants in Somalia-like anarchic bungholes lack the technological capability and financial resources to cause harm to us Great Satans over here.

Pan-Arab Caliphates led by a Madhi that inspires billions to strike at the Great Satan can cause some harm.

I'd much rather have the Somalian madness spread across the whole of the Middle East and Northern Africa.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: longeyes on March 30, 2011, 11:29:27 AM
Barbarians with modern weapons and visas = trouble.  They don't need WMDs to sow serious chaos.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 30, 2011, 11:31:03 AM
I'd much rather have the Somalian madness spread across the whole of the Middle East and Northern Africa.

Exactly my point. Better Somalia than Quaddafi-era Libya.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: longeyes on March 30, 2011, 02:01:27 PM
Anarchists with nasty weapons are less dangerous than totalitarian states with nasty weapons.  I think we can agree on that.  But Somalian mischief and Al-Qaeda terrorism are different, no? Pirates and local warlords are just general human currency; terrorism can be fatal to modern civilized polities.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 30, 2011, 03:00:11 PM
Anarchists with nasty weapons are less dangerous than totalitarian states with nasty weapons.  I think we can agree on that.  But Somalian mischief and Al-Qaeda terrorism are different, no? Pirates and local warlords are just general human currency; terrorism can be fatal to modern civilized polities.

Organized terrorism on the Al-Quaeda level requires training camps, facilities, etc. It's easier to blow these up when they're not in a sovereign state. Also, terrorist acts like 9/11 require resources. These require wealth to back them up - and totalitarian states are better at raising this sort of money than Somalia.

Also, terrorism is nasty, but I think you underestimate how resilient modern civilized polities are.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: Headless Thompson Gunner on March 30, 2011, 03:15:21 PM

Also, terrorism is nasty, but I think you underestimate how resilient modern civilized polities are.
What does it matter to me if the polity endures after the attack, but me and my whole family die?

In other words, it isn't enough just to protect the state.  We need to protect the people of the state as much, if not more than, the state itself.

There's a lot of talk about "existential threats".  This usually means a threat to the continued existence of the state, and as such it can be misleading.  It misses the point entirely to downgrade a threat to people because it doesn't happen to threaten the state also.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on March 30, 2011, 03:20:50 PM
Let me explain this in a brief manner.

In August 1941, my grandfather and his entire class at the Leningrad Aviation Institute were drafted to form a battalion of troops commanded by a local bureaucrat, and thrown into battle virtually unarmed. Almost the entire battalion perished, but the overall war plan succeeded and the Nazis were stopped from entering Leningrad. This was morally permissible, because the very existence of the nation was at stake. The Nazis were planning to enter the city and butcher its populace or enslave them.

When a nation suffers from an existential, catastrophic threat, the gloves come completely off. In a national emergency, any means are permissible if they secure your population from dying.

We need to establish whether such a threat exists because that colors our evaluation of what needs to be done.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: longeyes on March 30, 2011, 07:05:52 PM
If Libya wasn't an existential threat before it will be now.  Who thinks a wounded Qaddafi is not a very dangerous Qaddafi?  The man had/has WMDs.  I don't think he's too happy with Obama right now.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: roo_ster on March 30, 2011, 07:40:53 PM
If Libya wasn't an existential threat before it will be now.  Who thinks a wounded Qaddafi is not a very dangerous Qaddafi?  The man had/has WMDs.  I don't think he's too happy with Obama right now.

We could offer k-boy Obama as a peace offering.  Obama could read K-boy passages from "Dreams from my Father" and tuck him into bed each night.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: Lee on March 31, 2011, 08:10:41 PM
Quote
We keep saying BHO is clueless.  Seems to me everything he does works to advance the fortunes of radical Islamists, the better to promote a pan-Arab Caliphate down the pike.  One by one the leaders who hold the region together (bastards though they may be) are going down, with our official blessing.

It's a possibility...but essentially, the same idea was held decades ago regarding Latin America.  I think everyone should have the right to succeed or fail without a superpower funding the oppressor of the day. 
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: longeyes on March 31, 2011, 09:47:43 PM
Quote
Also, terrorism is nasty, but I think you underestimate how resilient modern civilized polities are.

No, I don't, but freelance, small-scale terrorism can be extremely disruptive.  I seem to remember John Muhammed and his sidekick, armed with one rifle, keeping Washington, D.C. back on its heels for quite a few days.  If the kind of terrorism that has plagued Israel were to become commonplace in America I think the impact, on several levels, would be significant. 
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: longeyes on March 31, 2011, 09:50:52 PM
Quote
It's a possibility...but essentially, the same idea was held decades ago regarding Latin America.  I think everyone should have the right to succeed or fail without a superpower funding the oppressor of the day.

There are times and places to get involved, and times not to.  We should have learned, from exactly what you say, that meddling isn't always very smart.  In this case I don't believe it's motivated by humanitarian motives, anyway, even though those wouldn't be sufficient in my view to justify military intervention; this is part of Obama's re-election campaign, and if he can help Muslim radicals in the process so much the better.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on April 02, 2011, 02:32:19 PM
Quote
If the kind of terrorism that has plagued Israel were to become commonplace in America I think the impact, on several levels, would be significant.

I and my girlfriend lived in Ashdod during operation Cast Lead, when hundreds of MLRS rockets and mortar bombs were fired on the country within days.

Stores were open. Mail arrived. Pizza delivery was on time. If the terrorists want to disrupt my life, they're going to have to try far harder.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: longeyes on April 02, 2011, 06:32:48 PM
You expect our soccer moms to get to yoga classes with rockets hitting the neighborhood?  i don't.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: longeyes on April 02, 2011, 09:12:13 PM
More news about World War III...

from Debka File:


I'm guessing this is copywrited material. Plesae provide the link, not copy and pasting the whole article. Thank you.
Title: Re: Rebel Commander in Libya Fought Against U.S. in Afghanistan
Post by: MicroBalrog on April 03, 2011, 05:34:06 AM
Debkafile?

Seriously now?

Why not WND, then?