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Author Topic: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco  (Read 15228 times)

MillCreek

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Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« on: April 27, 2011, 08:37:39 PM »
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/cityinsider/detail?entry_id=87788

Signatures are being gathered in San Francisco to put a measure on the ballot banning male circumcision.  Many interesting comments attached to the news article.
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PTK

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2011, 08:53:26 PM »
Good. Butchering part of a newborn boy's body is a horrific practice. It's a LOT different than, for example, circumcision when becoming an adult (in Judaism, for example)
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2011, 08:55:35 PM »
Quote from: PTK on April 27, 2011, 08:53:26 PM
Good. Butchering part of a newborn boy's body is a horrific practice. It's a LOT different than, for example, circumcision when becoming an adult (in Judaism, for example)

That's Islam.  Jews do it when the kid is eight days old.
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De Selby

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2011, 09:59:11 PM »
Quote from: PTK on April 27, 2011, 08:53:26 PM
Good. Butchering part of a newborn boy's body is a horrific practice. It's a LOT different than, for example, circumcision when becoming an adult (in Judaism, for example)

Horrific?  Not so sure there.  Are there any proven long term effects of circumcision besides reduced susceptibility to infection, including HIV?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2011, 10:07:55 PM »
Quote from: BridgeRunner on April 27, 2011, 08:55:35 PM
That's Islam.  Jews do it when the kid is eight days old.

And they seem like such nice people!   :lol:
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AJ Dual

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2011, 10:09:58 PM »
This is just going to increase the number of back-alley circumcisions.  =(
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White Horseradish

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2011, 10:36:41 PM »
Quote from: De Selby on April 27, 2011, 09:59:11 PM
Horrific?  Not so sure there.  Are there any proven long term effects of circumcision besides reduced susceptibility to infection, including HIV?
Do they have to be long term? Inflicting unnecessary pain on a small child is not a bad thing in you book?
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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2011, 10:38:36 PM »
This is going to go no where good and it's going to get there quick.
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PTK

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2011, 10:40:07 PM »
Quote from: De Selby on April 27, 2011, 09:59:11 PM
Horrific?  Not so sure there.  Are there any proven long term effects of circumcision besides reduced susceptibility to infection, including HIV?

Quote from: White Horseradish on April 27, 2011, 10:36:41 PM
Do they have to be long term? Inflicting unnecessary pain on a small child is not a bad thing in you book?

Took the answer right out of my mouth. The kids don't "settle down" part way into the procedure - they go into shock and start shaking, with their eyes rolling back into their head. It is, indeed, horrific. Go look for videos if you don't believe me - I'd sooner have surgery without anesthesia be legal to perform on infants. :(
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De Selby

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2011, 10:49:32 PM »
Quote from: White Horseradish on April 27, 2011, 10:36:41 PM
Do they have to be long term? Inflicting unnecessary pain on a small child is not a bad thing in you book?

No, I don't honestly believe it's that bad or painful.  I also don't agree that it's unnecessary.  Parents could reasonably want to protect their kids from infection. Religious and cultural reasons also shouldn't be dismissed.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2011, 11:10:37 PM »
De Selby, I bet you also think it's OK to force children to wear painful braces on their legs or teeth, or to jab needles into them, filling their bloodstreams with diseases. Don't you? Don't you? You monster.

I presume the bill also bans these horrific practices, yes? And bans body piercings or tattoos for minors?
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PTK

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2011, 11:14:45 PM »
Cutting off part of the body =/= vaccine. ;)

What's everyone's opinion on the removal of the clitoral hood? It is custom in a few places, and used to be a much more widespread custom...
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De Selby

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2011, 11:16:50 PM »
Yeah, I'm not convinced by the YouTube videos that this is so barbaric.  It also has clear medical benefits.  I'd be interested to see a history of the ban movement.  Where did this start?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2011, 11:23:32 PM »
Quote from: PTK on April 27, 2011, 11:14:45 PM
Cutting off part of the body =/= vaccine. ;)

Cutting off the foreskin =/= butchery.  ;)
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2011, 11:24:26 PM »
Quote from: De Selby on April 27, 2011, 11:16:50 PM
Yeah, I'm not convinced by the YouTube videos that this is so barbaric.  It also has clear medical benefits.  I'd be interested to see a history of the ban movement.  Where did this start?

Take a wild guess.  ;/
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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2011, 11:51:44 PM »
Oh, hell!  Didn't we go through this before? :facepalm:

And does anybody think that the other side will change their mind this time? :facepalm:

I'm going to follow this just to see if a new idea enters what will pass for discussion.  [popcorn]

stay safe.
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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2011, 11:53:18 PM »
Keep your laws off my foreskin!

Doesn't quite have the same ring to it as "my body", does it?
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De Selby

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2011, 12:01:11 AM »
I honestly have no idea where this movement originated.  Nor why it strikes such a chord.  I do know that I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who asks me to support a law because if I don't, babies will be tortured.
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White Horseradish

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2011, 12:14:27 AM »
Quote from: De Selby on April 27, 2011, 10:49:32 PM
No, I don't honestly believe it's that bad or painful.  I also don't agree that it's unnecessary.  Parents could reasonably want to protect their kids from infection. Religious and cultural reasons also shouldn't be dismissed.
Well, if cutting your finger is painful, why would cutting your penis be not painful?

As far as everything else, if it's really not a big deal, why not let the owner of the foreskin make the choice?

Quote from: Monkeyleg on April 27, 2011, 11:53:18 PM
Keep your laws off my foreskin!
Eh... Laws on your foreskin? Someone got too close to a printing press in the nude?   >:D



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Perd Hapley

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2011, 12:34:58 AM »
Quote from: White Horseradish on April 28, 2011, 12:14:27 AM
Well, if cutting your finger is painful, why would cutting your penis be not painful?

As far as everything else, if it's really not a big deal, why not let the owner of the foreskin make the choice?

Are we now banning things because they're painful? And I assume you're also down to ban ear piercing for minors? Or is that "a big deal" that must be done right away?

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Northwoods

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2011, 12:48:11 AM »
Wow.  A thread where I'm in complete, 100% agreement with De Selby. 
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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2011, 01:03:34 AM »
Quote from: The artist formerly known as fistful on April 27, 2011, 11:10:37 PM
De Selby, I bet you also think it's OK to force children to wear painful braces on their legs or teeth, or to jab needles into them, filling their bloodstreams with diseases. Don't you? Don't you? You monster.

I presume the bill also bans these horrific practices, yes? And bans body piercings or tattoos for minors?

On your rationale, if we do not ban every single procedure that is available for minors, we should have no power to regulate these procedures at all?
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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2011, 01:04:25 AM »
Quote from: sumpnz on April 28, 2011, 12:48:11 AM
Wow.  A thread where I'm in complete, 100% agreement with De Selby. 

It does happen to the best of us.
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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2011, 01:04:58 AM »
Quote from: The artist formerly known as fistful on April 28, 2011, 12:34:58 AM
Are we now banning things because they're painful? And I assume you're also down to ban ear piercing for minors? Or is that "a big deal" that must be done right away?


Do you think it should be legal, anywhere in the United States, for a parent to tattoo a child at the age of eight? Or pierce his/her ears/other bodily organs? If not, why?
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De Selby

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Re: Voting to ban male circumcision in San Francisco
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2011, 01:23:24 AM »
Quote from: MicroBalrog on April 28, 2011, 01:04:58 AM
Do you think it should be legal, anywhere in the United States, for a parent to tattoo a child at the age of eight? Or pierce his/her ears/other bodily organs? If not, why?

Yes, within limits which we've had a few hundred years to establish. 

I think a decent test is this - if the medical and social consequences are minimal, and there is a legitimate parental reason to have the procedure, it should be allowed.  I think fistfuls point was that obviously, causing some pain is not a reason to prohibit the practice. 

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