Author Topic: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...  (Read 8120 times)

Manedwolf

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MUMBAI, India —  DEVELOPING: At least 25 people are feared dead after gunman targeted luxury hotels, a popular tourist attraction and a crowded train station in at least seven attacks in India's financial capital Thursday, police and witnesses said.

There are unconfirmed reports of at least 14 Westerners being held hostage by the gunmen, NVTV is reporting.

Police were battling the gunman, Maharashtra Police Commissioner A.N Roy said.

"The terrorists have used automatic weapons and in some places grenades have been lobbed," Roy said.

Very bad situation. But I have to hand it to whomever is calling the shots there, they at least properly equipped the police as they mobilized.

Light carbines? No.



Battle rifles. L1A1 FALs. I didn't even know they were still in service. But fitting that the good old "right arm of the free world" might be putting down a few more evil people who have just killed a bunch of innocent civilians.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 02:57:00 PM by Manedwolf »

Balog

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 04:05:07 PM »
In an urban environment, I'd think the added length, weight, and recoil impulse might actually be a hindrance.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 04:11:34 PM »
In an urban environment, I'd think the added length, weight, and recoil impulse might actually be a hindrance.

The terrorists are holing up in buildings and have even attacked the police station. I'd think they'd appreciate the barrier penetration, rather than having a bullpup 5.56 that can't get through anything like many police in that region of the world seem to have. This is outright urban warfare out of nowhere, based on the latest news.

Also, FAL recoil is very mild. If I was where they are, with terrorists in buildings, I would want a .308. Goes through the wall they're ducking behind, goes through vehicles, and puts someone down NOW, the same reason they've been issuing the M-14s to the designated marksman of squads right now. Granted, the para would be better, but I suspect it's going to come out that it was a very good thing that the police there still had those.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 04:16:38 PM by Manedwolf »

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 04:12:47 PM »
80+ dead now. 250+ injured. Seems they've been targeting tourists from the UK, US & Israel when given the opportunity.
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Balog

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 04:24:40 PM »
The terrorists are holing up in buildings and have even attacked the police station. I'd think they'd appreciate the barrier penetration, rather than having a bullpup 5.56 that can't get through anything like many police in that region of the world seem to have. This is outright urban warfare out of nowhere, based on the latest news.

Also, FAL recoil is very mild. If I was where they are, with terrorists in buildings, I would want a .308. Goes through the wall they're ducking behind, goes through vehicles, and puts someone down NOW, the same reason they've been issuing the M-14s to the designated marksman of squads right now. Granted, the para would be better, but I suspect it's going to come out that it was a very good thing that the police there still had those.

Ever tried clearing a building Maned? I have, and trust me, shorter and lighter is generally better. Admittedly, IF you see an enemy firing from a static position, and that happens to be a type of cover that a 7.62x51 would penetrate but a x39 would not then yes it would be better. But this is not generally the case. And if it is, that's why God invented medium machine guns and grenade launchers.

Here's an exercise; take a full length MBR and try to clear your condo with it. The extra length is a fairly substantial disadvantage. For general purpose urban combat, a shorter, lighter rifle in a decent caliber is better than a battle rifle. Main battle rifles excel in versatility. they can do urban, just not as well as a carbine. They can do long-ish range or counter-sniper duty, but not as well as a purpose built Designated Marksman-type rifle. I personally love the jack-of-all-trades mentality; but specialist tools are still better for their specific narrow purposes.
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freedom lover

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 04:55:54 PM »
The Taj Hotel is burning right now. Nine have been arrested. Shots are being fired. Go to Fox news. They have a live feed. "the army is inside"


This situation needs SF marskmen and counter-terrorist assault teams armed with subguns or bullpups. Hopefully India has such a special forces group.

I wonder if the terrorists are radical Muslims or Hindus.

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2008, 05:00:57 PM »
http://www.foxnews.com/

Scroll down to where it says "watch live" in red font.

Story here:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,457885,00.html

The fire could be coming from CS gas.

castle key

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2008, 06:15:15 PM »


I wonder if the terrorists are radical Muslims or Hindus.


How dare you imply that the religion of peace would have radicals!!
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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2008, 06:22:26 PM »
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I wonder if the terrorists are radical Muslims or Hindus.
Don't be silly. They're clearly Assault Mormons.

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castle key

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2008, 06:26:13 PM »
Don't be silly. They're clearly Assault Mormons.

An Assault Mormon?? Is that just an ordinary Mormon tagged by the New York Times as particularly frightening looking but really no different than others?? Or would it be a Mormon who stands for old fashioned values such as family and can't be talked into some nonsense such as the California Gay "marriage" thing? Oh, those would be bigots who just don't understand the need for enlightened judges to make law rather than the voting people!!
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crawdaddyjim

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2008, 06:52:40 PM »
No, that would be a Mormon with knobbies on his ten speed tires.


Just kidding, just kidding

crawdaddyjim

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2008, 07:03:45 PM »
Well it looks like the John Wayne approach to terrorism has taken strong root in India. Good on them.

Jim

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2008, 07:14:01 PM »
Is it wrong that I'm so pessimistic and I expect vast amounts of such activity targeted at US citizens across the world after inauguration this January?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2008, 07:15:11 PM »
Ever tried clearing a building Maned? I have, and trust me, shorter and lighter is generally better. Admittedly, IF you see an enemy firing from a static position, and that happens to be a type of cover that a 7.62x51 would penetrate but a x39 would not then yes it would be better. But this is not generally the case. And if it is, that's why God invented medium machine guns and grenade launchers.

No, but actually, I agree with you for that sort. =) For emergency, post-disaster "a looter has gotten into where I am", I have three things. An 870...with a folding Knoxx stock. A Saiga 5.56...with a folding stock. And the newer Daewoo...with a folding stock. Short is good indoors, that's just common sense. You whack against hallway walls, it could get you killed.

What I saw on the news looked like a running street gunbattle between police being fired on while still in their own police station (!) from AK-wielding sorts out in the street, and also fighting on the street where terrorists were busily blowing up things like a gas station and shooting at an occupied train station. It just looked like something that would work with a battle rifle instead, and since I doubt the police get heavier weapons, just that I thought it was a good call that they'd gone out with L1A1s for the street fighting instead of light weapons.

The trained military was the ones going into the hotel to do roomclearing. I couldn't see what they had, but I'd bet it was M-4's with the same stuff on the rails US forces use...that does work really well for that. The police just weren't getting their posteriors handed to them by being outgunned in the general outdoors fighting I saw.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 07:18:44 PM by Manedwolf »

Balog

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2008, 07:18:47 PM »
There are indeed many situation where a battle rifle is = or > a carbine. Generally speaking, anything where you are either inside of or going into a building is not such a time.
Quote from: French G.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Manedwolf

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2008, 07:26:55 PM »
I wouldn't even want to fire a .308 in a hallway. It's punishing enough in an indoor range with plugs and muffs on, just due to the contained concussion in the enclosed space. Plus overpenetration. So, yeah. My in-home defense rifle is 5.56 and folds up to be short. I agree, there.

BTW, India has reported that nine of the terrorists have been captured and are being "aggressively interrogated". I'll be they are.

Edit: Had the news on, there's more video. Someone walked past the camera with an SMLE. Okay. That's a little retro. O_o
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 07:37:49 PM by Manedwolf »

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2008, 08:39:48 PM »
Ain't nothin' wrong with an SMLE, especially in the hands of somebody who knows how to use it.

The Jerries thought that Tommy Atkins was firing machine guns during WWI, only to discover they were firing SMLEs.

I've tried the Mad Minute drill (30 rounds at 200 meters in 1 minute) with all my Lee-Enfields, and can see why it's bad for enemy morale.

The .303 British round is no slouch, either. 
   
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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2008, 08:45:27 PM »
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I've tried the Mad Minute drill (30 rounds at 200 meters in 1 minute) with all my Lee-Enfields, and can see why it's bad for enemy morale.

Ditto. People complain about stripper clips, but I love them dearly. Found a GREAT deal - $.10/each a while back. Bought a 30 cal can full... and they're all loaded now. :D
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Gewehr98

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2008, 08:48:13 PM »
The Soviets weren't particularly fond of SMLE-equipped Mujahideen in Afghanistan, either.  ;)
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Manedwolf

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2008, 08:57:48 PM »
.303 is fine as long as it isn't Pakistani ammo. Did anyone ever figure out how they managed to make it so consistently hangfire?

I've actually seen someone using it, and it was amusing. *click*...*BANG*


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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2008, 09:04:11 PM »
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The trained military was the ones going into the hotel to do roomclearing. I couldn't see what they had, but I'd bet it was M-4's
Not sure if it was .mil or police, but I saw guys in uniform with Sterling SMGs.

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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2008, 09:05:11 PM »
Don't be silly. They're clearly Assault Mormons.

Die Hard meets Rainbow Six: Vegas.

I personally believe that they are harri karri Krishnah.
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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2008, 09:33:24 PM »
I don't know if CNN will let me link directly, but their front page is showing two Indian troops in Mumbai (formerly Bombay) with No4Mk1 Lee-Enfields:



(No, I won't call them SMLEs, they're the wrong variant for that...)
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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2008, 09:46:36 PM »
Foxnews is calling them "Muslim terrorists" in the story headline.
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Re: Well, at least India gives its police enough gun when things get bad...
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2008, 10:00:29 PM »
Foxnews is calling them "Muslim terrorists" in the story headline.

They probably are.

I wonder if Dawood Ibrahim has a hand in this...he's the Don Corleone of India/Pakistan, and has been known to involve himself in this kind of crime before.
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