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Author Topic: English grammar question  (Read 4618 times)

zahc

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English grammar question
« on: August 08, 2011, 10:48:33 PM »
Example construction:

"I gave it to he who sits in the pilot's seat"

OR

"I gave it to him who sits in the pilot's seat"

The pronoun can't agree with both transitive "gave" and intransitive "sits". So which is it? Avoid the construction altogether?
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zxcvbob

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2011, 10:50:18 PM »
I think it's the first one ("he"), but I would just say I gave it to the pilot.
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Warhorse

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2011, 10:59:07 PM »
Very awkward sentence structure. I agree with zxcvbob. Don't use it. Remember that KISS is quite important.

"I know that you think that you understand what you thought I said but I don't think that you understand that what I said was not what I meant."

How's that for an example of simple sentence structure and clarity?

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 11:15:09 PM »
Quote from: Warhorse on August 08, 2011, 10:59:07 PM
Very awkward sentence structure. I agree with zxcvbob. Don't use it. Remember that KISS is quite important.

"I know that you think that you understand what you thought I said but I don't think that you understand that what I said was not what I meant."

How's that for an example of simple sentence structure and clarity?



The guy in the pilot seat has it.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 11:23:15 PM »
The sentence structure with "he" is correct, but antiquated. Probably was in vogue in the 1700's.
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GigaBuist

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2011, 11:25:31 PM »
I think the first one is correct but the quotes are off and it lacks context.  Let's try this.

'I "gave it" to he who sits in the pilot's seat' -- Mabs

See?  That makes a whole lot more sense to me.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2011, 11:26:12 PM »
I gave it to him, who sits in the pilot's seat.

"him" being the indirect object, and "who sits in the pilot's seat" being a prepositional phrase (I think).

Or:

I gave it to he who sits in the pilot's seat.


(he who sits in the pilot's seat) being the indirect object of the sentence.
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230RN

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2011, 06:38:37 AM »
And then him gave it back to I.

<nyuck-nyuck-nyuck>

If forced, I'd change it to "I gave it to the person who sits (sat) in the pilot's seat."

Just "giving it to the pilot" presumes the guy in the pilot seat is actually a (the) pilot.  Reasonable, of course, but not inevitable.

My first reaction was to equate "to whom did you give it," with "him"
rather than "he," so I'd have said the correct way to state it would have been "I gave it to him who sits in the pilot's seat"

But I'm not going to sign this one so nobody will know whom posted it.




« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 06:49:35 AM by 230RN »
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Harold Tuttle

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2011, 08:07:54 AM »
Teh pilot, he haz it, cuz i gibbed it to him.
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makattak

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2011, 08:53:19 AM »
Quote from: AZRedhawk44 on August 08, 2011, 11:26:12 PM
I gave it to him, who sits in the pilot's seat.

"him" being the indirect object, and "who sits in the pilot's seat" being a prepositional phrase (I think).

Or:

I gave it to he who sits in the pilot's seat.


(he who sits in the pilot's seat) being the indirect object of the sentence.

You chose the correct formulation, but missed the explanation a little.

Him is the object of the preposition "to". Thus, "I gave it to him" (for it to be the indirect object, it would be "I gave him the thing.")

"Who" is the subject of the subordinate clause "who sits in the pilot's seat". (Thus "who" is in its nominative form.)

"Who" is referring back to "him." Pronouns do not have to agree in case with their antecedent.
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zxcvbob

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2011, 09:04:29 AM »
Quote from: ??? on August 09, 2011, 06:38:37 AM
And then him gave it back to I.

<nyuck-nyuck-nyuck>

If forced, I'd change it to "I gave it to the person who sits (sat) in the pilot's seat."

Just "giving it to the pilot" presumes the guy in the pilot seat is actually a (the) pilot.  Reasonable, of course, but not inevitable.

My first reaction was to equate "to whom did you give it," with "him"
rather than "he," so I'd have said the correct way to state it would have been "I gave it to him who sits in the pilot's seat"

But I'm not going to sign this one so nobody will know whom posted it.


Just get rid of the pronoun:  "I gave it to the man in the pilot's seat."  (assumes it wasn't a boy, I guess)
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seeker_two

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2011, 10:41:03 AM »
"I gave it to the occupant of the pilot's seat."

PC enough?.....
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Ben

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2011, 11:06:25 AM »
How hard is this? If you are a man, simply point in direction of pilot's seat with either finger or slight head nod (preferred) and grunt.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2011, 12:43:17 PM »
I presented the item to the carbon-based life form currently occupying the airworthy object's nexus of control.

Brad
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wmenorr67

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2011, 01:17:39 PM »
What, out of all our combined talents not one English major in the group? :laugh:
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makattak

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2011, 01:39:30 PM »
Quote from: wmenorr67 on August 09, 2011, 01:17:39 PM
What, out of all our combined talents not one English major in the group? :laugh:

Not an English major, but in addition to Economics, I also majored in Classical Languages in undergrad.

I'm also married to the daughter of TWO English professors. :lol:
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I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

wmenorr67

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2011, 02:16:48 PM »
Quote from: makattak on August 09, 2011, 01:39:30 PM
Not an English major, but in addition to Economics, I also majored in Classical Languages in undergrad.

I'm also married to the daughter of TWO English professors. :lol:

Sorry
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Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American Soldier.  One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

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seeker_two

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2011, 02:44:47 PM »
Quote from: wmenorr67 on August 09, 2011, 01:17:39 PM
What, out of all our combined talents not one English major in the group? :laugh:

Maybe you should have Microbalrog translate it for you?....  =|
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MrsSmith

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2011, 03:08:18 PM »
English major and editor.

I gave it to the pilot, as zxcvbob stated. Simple is best and using the fewest words to get your point across is one of the key elements in strong writing.

Of course, if the person in the pilot seat isn't the pilot, then you might say, "I gave it to the person who sat in the pilot's seat."
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Brad Johnson

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2011, 03:32:23 PM »
Quote from: MrsSmith on August 09, 2011, 03:08:18 PM

Of course, if the person in the pilot seat isn't the pilot, then you might say, "I gave it to the person who sat in the pilot's seat."

What if it was the person who sat in the pilot's lap?

Brad
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 03:36:37 PM by Brad Johnson »
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makattak

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 03:39:17 PM »
Quote from: MrsSmith on August 09, 2011, 03:08:18 PM
English major and editor.

I gave it to the pilot, as zxcvbob stated. Simple is best and using the fewest words to get your point across is one of the key elements in strong writing.

Of course, if the person in the pilot seat isn't the pilot, then you might say, "I gave it to the person who sat in the pilot's seat."

Or if you gave it to the person and he is currently sitting in the pilot's seat, whether or not he was sitting in the pilot's seat when you gave it to him, and whether or not you know if he is the pilot, you'd say:

"I gave it to him who sits in the pilot's seat."
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I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

seeker_two

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2011, 05:38:53 PM »
Quote from: Brad Johnson on August 09, 2011, 03:32:23 PM
What if it was the person who sat in the pilot's lap?


Then you'd need to have it translated by Mabs or by Jamis....depending on the gender of the pilot.....


 =D
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Waitone

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2011, 05:51:01 PM »
Quote
Not an English major, but in addition to Economics, I also majored in Classical Languages in undergrad.

I'm also married to the daughter of TWO English professors.
Sounds like a referral is in order.  Do they do guns?  If so get'em to sign up.  I suspect if we had a few Engrish experts as members the number of language threads would jump.  Can you imagine what it would be like to have an English teacher monitoring our posts?
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wuluf

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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2011, 07:08:56 PM »
"I gave it to him what sits in the pilot's seat.

Fixed it fer ya!
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Re: English grammar question
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2011, 09:51:30 PM »
Quote from: GigaBuist on August 08, 2011, 11:25:31 PM
I think the first one is correct but the quotes are off and it lacks context.  Let's try this.

'I "gave it" to he who sits in the pilot's seat' -- Mabs

See?  That makes a whole lot more sense to me.

I don't "give it" to anyone.







If you know what I mean. ;)
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