Reality hits my wife...again

[Monkeyleg]

Over the years, I've been trying to slowly convince my wife that her wayward "liberal" ideas are wrong.

It's been a tough road, believe me.

Five years ago, she took a horrible job with US Bank, the only reason being that we would get affordable health insurance.

Most of the people working in that department were "welfare-to-work" folks, who hadn't ever held a job before.

From time to time, my wife would give a ride home to "Big Deb," who lives only a few miles from us in West Allis.

On one of those rides home, Big Deb asked my wife if we had such-and-such a movie on DVD.

My wife told her that we didn't have a DVD player. Big Deb was astonished: how could we not have a DVD player?

When my wife got home, she felt bad. We didn't have a DVD player (the logical answer to which is that we don't buy any DVD's, or even watch that much TV. Nevermind).

I then said, "your friend Big Deb lives in a house that's paid for by Milwaukee County. We work our butts off to pay for our mortgage, and for the very property taxes that pay for Big Deb's house. She lives in that house for free. Do you see a problem here?"

After a minute or so, my wife got really angry. That was the first step to bringing her around.

To add fuel to the fire, I trotted out a 1994 front-page article from the Washington Post that talked about how welfare mothers were having a hard time buying Christmas presents for their kids. The photo showed a mother and, in the background, a kid playing in a cardboard box. The mother said, in the quote, that the box was the only toy her kid had.

The box was for a big-screen TV. The TV could be seen in the background.

As mentioned in another thread, my wife just started a new job at the beginning of this month, working for the company that her sister and her sister's husband run. She does everything from bookwork to running errands to helping rent out apartments in the two buildings my SIL and BIL own.

She has to not only show the apartments, but also clean them and, if necessary, paint them. She has no problem with that; she likes physical work.

Tonight, she came home a bit agitated. The woman (and her scumbag boyfriend) to whom she was showing the apartment had filled out a rental application.

The woman was 42, ten years younger than my wife.

Under employment history, the woman wrote, "none."

Under sources of income, the woman listed everything from food stamps to rent assistance to every other social program imaginable.

My wife came home covered in paint, and full of sweat after a long day of hard work.

And she started to rant about how nobody in that neighborhood works, how they're all drugged up all day, and just hang out.

I pulled the trigger too soon by saying, "Welcome to the Republican party."

But the message sunk in. It's taken years, but I think I've managed to bring her over to The Dark Side.

[K Frame]

Every once in awhile reality will set in for someone like your wife. It's usually ugly to watch the awakening.

[lupinus]

great work bringing her to the dark side my friend

"Come to the dark side!  We have cookies"

[280plus]

Heck, I used to work in the state office in Hartford occasionally and I'd watch them pull up in their Cadillacs out front to run in and get their welfare checks.

[lupinus]

My mother is on welfare, and is actually disabled.  I have been in enough welfare offices to see just about every sort on it, from young mothers who just had a baby to the actually disabled to the people who are just lazy to the people who are just drunks and to the people who smile pick up their check and head back to their street corner to sell what it is they sell on street corners.

Probably close to 80% of the people who get welfare shouldn't be getting it.  And the people who should don't get enough to live on mainly because of the people who shouldn't get it.

[Leatherneck]

Do not get Leatherness started on women in the grocery checkout line who pull food stamps out of their designer purses and go home in a new Lexus! Don't, I'm telling you...

TC

[Guest]

Where in the world do you people live? I'm trying to think of one person I know who was on welfare who wasn't dirt poor. Not that a lot of times it wasn't their own fault they were in that position, but no one I know on welfare ever drove anything not held together with bungee cords.

[TMM]

barb, i recently helped my grampa clean out a rental property of his to sell. the town is aweful and i'd bet at LEAST 70% were on welfare: during normal business hours there were just people all hanging out on the streets. but thier cars? that must be thier real important thing in life. crappy houses and aweful town, but they LOVE thier cars.

~tmm

[Art Eatman]

Barbara, the percentage of welfare-fraud types is fairly low.  The problem is that they stand out like beacons in the night.

I know folks around here in Terlingua who are poor and walking, or are poor and make do with ancient, unreliable pickemups.  I also have eyeballed quite healthy young men in the "projects" who don't work and who drive around in Shiny New Cars...

There's no "one size fits all" in this deal...

Art

[roo_ster]

As they used to say, "A Republican is a Democrat who has been mugged by reality."

I spent quite enough time working in housing projects and in other parts of the 'hood to come to the conclusion that we pour 90% of our welfare $$$ down a rathole.

[richyoung]

the people who smile pick up their check and head back to their street corner to sell what it is they sell on street corners.

BINGO.  If you are selling dope, or prostituting, or any other "off-the-books" income, guess what?  You have NO PROBLEM qualifying for rent assistance, food stamps, welfare, WIC, Aid to families with dependant children, health care,  etc.  Meanwhile, my Desert Storm veteran friend, with a degree, who was wrangling mentally ill and violent people for 7 whole dollars an hour, on the midnight shift - walking to work and eating Ramen noodle and PBJs (when he could afford it - went hungry otherwise) got SQUAT - because "he made too much money"....

Bottom line, if you tax (punish) something, you get less of it - if you reward/subsidize somehting, you get more of it - guess what welfare does?  It taxes productivity and rewards sloth.  If we shook the cheaters, dopers, pimps, "playahs" etc out, we could GIVE everyone who truly needs it a new house AND a new car AND an allowance for food, gas ans utilities.

[BakerMikeRomeo]

Better yet, if there were no money to be made selling crappy, shady dope or women of suspect health and background because a company could provide better product for the same or less.. *cough*

Anydangway.

~GnSx

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

Uh oh, I smell a libertarian ^^

[BakerMikeRomeo]

Don't say nasty things about people you don't know, dasmi!



I don't care to call myself a libertarian, as I've got plenty of disagreements with those who do, but w/ regard to the war on drugs and the war on things that Old Lady Perkins Down The Street is offended by, I don't care to waste any more money or lives on it than we already have, and I think that the benefits would vastly outweigh the negative side effects.

But that's roaming OT,
~GnSx

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

I completely agree.

[Firethorn]

I don't care to call myself a libertarian, as I've got plenty of disagreements with those who do, but w/ regard to the war on drugs and the war on things that Old Lady Perkins Down The Street is offended by, I don't care to waste any more money or lives on it than we already have, and I think that the benefits would vastly outweigh the negative side effects.

Sounds like you're alot like me.  I tend to call myself a 'moderate libertarian', but that's because I'm not willing to call myself either a republican or a democrat.

[Monkeyleg]

Barbara, I'm not saying that these folks are living high. As much as my wife tries to clean the apartments well, paint them, and make them look as nice as possible, I'd be horribly depressed living in one of them.

I'm not saying that these folks are cheating, either. I've never gotten money from the government, so I don't know what the rules are.

What I do know is there are a zillion social programs out there, and that I'm helping pay for them at a time when we're having to watch every dollar we spend.

An old high school friend of mine, and former Communist, works for one of those little social agencies. When I use the term "work," I use it loosely.

His job is to manage the remodeling of low-income homes. His agency will take one of these homes and spend as much as $50,000 on improvements: new roofs, paint, walls, plumbing, etc. All paid for by the city and county (IOW, me).

If the occupant of the home doesn't like the color of whatever, he/she calls the alderman to complain. And the agency does the job over again.

Our house will need a new roof in the next couple of years. I have a chimney that needs to be rebuilt at a cost of $8,000. I have four slabs of sidewalk on the side of the house that need replacing; best price I got was $3000. We could really use a new garage. I'm still not finished putting new tile and fixtures in our main bathroom. And our basement needs some work.

There's no city or county agency rushing to give us the money to get this done. That's OK. We'll finish our fixer-upper home in time.

We could get it done faster, though, if we weren't paying for everyone else.

[Perd Hapley]

Even if one accepts that government should have some kind of welfare program, shouldn't the flaws in the system be obvious?  The biggest one I see is that my taxes are going to Washington, to be shunted through various agencies before it returns to the people who live down the street from me.  So it should be obvious that welfare should at least be dealt with at the state level, if not the local, right?  Or would that make it to easy for people to collect from more than one state or municipality?  How does it work, anyway?

[Firethorn]

Even if one accepts that government should have some kind of welfare program, shouldn't the flaws in the system be obvious?

The main problem with making it state level is that some states are substantially better off than others.  On a lower level, for example, New Orleans would never have been able to support their level of welfare recipients without assistance from a higher level.

As for how it works now, you have hundreds of different programs, many overlapping and duplicating other's efforts.  For example, there's generally housing assistance at the federal, state and even municipal levels.  There are some checks and balances in place, but they're honestly insufficient in the face of a determined leech.

Some of the older ones sounded pretty good, my parents were on WIC when I was born.  Then again, dad was in the USAF at the time, and airmen weren't paid all that well.  The core idea is to ensure proper nutrition for the mother while pregnant and the child after birth.  The items eligable for WIC are limited.  One of my coworkers is also on WIC, and complained when I talked about ending welfare.  At least until I pointed out to him that he'd be more than compensated by drops in his taxes from the ending of all the other programs.

Personally, my interim solution would be to replace all the welfare with 'The Federal Jobs Program'.  States can run their own version if they wish, of course.  Paying less than minimum wage and being worked at least 40 hours a week, participants in the program would be provided food in a dining hall, room in a barracks/dormatory, clothing in the form of uniforms, and the cheapest healthcare I can find.  You could earn credits good for training/education, as well as 'vacation time' to extend your 'benefits' so you can transition gracefully between the program and a free market job.

[Guest]

I've raised to kids to their late teens (one to adulthood) without any support of any kind..not child support, not government assistance, nada. Just me. So I hear you on the disgust of tax money being wasted.

I'm just always skeptical of the welfare queen stories..not that they don't happen, but the people I've ever known on welfare are just dirt poor..and too often have no clue at all about how not to be poor. Seriously, its something they don't understand, grasp..just don't get it. In a lot of ways, its just basic survival for them..on an animal level. Often their parents were on welfare, drug users, drunks, and often people who preyed on other people. When you grow up like that, and I know way too many people who have, you just don't know there's another world..or you do, but its as realistic to you as watching a show on television. Kids grow up with no idea that *they* could finish school, go to college, and actually accomplish something. That's something for other people, not them. The number of people who break that cycle is miniscule. It does happen, but the odds are so stacked against it..I'd say less than 5%..which leads to more people living the same kind of lives, because even birth control isn't an important concept for them. They're people who see life as something that happens to them, not something they have any real control over.

I don't have any answers, but I think the only way in the world that kind of poverty..not being broke, not not having enough money, but pure poverty..financial, spiritual, cultural, whatever you want to call it, can be fixed is through person intervention, mentoring, whatever you want to call it.  That's why I hate government welfare, or at least on a federal or even state level. It gives people the opportunity to wash their hands of actually looking at a child who is malnourished because her parents have no concept of what constitutes a good diet, no access to fresh vegetables if they did know, no money for good food if it was accessable, and no concept of working a 40 hour week to earn the money to pay for it.  They write a check, its funneled through a huge bureaucracy, a small part actually goes to programs that might make a difference (WIC is one, I can think of..maybe school lunch programs) but no one actually has to think about the child until either December 25th or April 15.

So, that's my rant for the day. I guess.

Wel, so that's

[BozemanMT]

The day is coming and rather rapidly from some of the posts here, where there may be a bit of pushback to continuing to extend our taxes.
Where it's easier to go underground then to pay more than you make.
I'm not saying it's here yet
but it's close.

I figure I get to keep right at about 50% of what i "make"
if it goes to 51%, well I might just sit on the other side of the fence for a while.  And i can't be the only one thinking that.

Do the socialists not take econ 101?

And oh yes, I have a friend who rents section 8 housing, they have to pay rent.  like $50 of the $1000 rent.
WTF?
Move to someplace cheaper.  And 80% of them have been in housing forever and they are never getting off.  

It needs a time limit.
You are on hard times, we understand that, everyone wants to help.  Here's a year's worth of help.
At day 366, you are on your own.

[Art Eatman]

The folks who benefit the most from the federal social services programs are the employees.  When you account for building costs for offices, including utilities; and then figure salaries and travel, the overhead runs right at 50% of the allocated funds.

It always irks me to drive through some little quasi-ghost-town and the only new buildings there are paid for by taxes, and the sign says it's some social services outfit.

Art

[doczinn]

I hereby claim that Barbara Gets It.

[Sindawe]

I figure I get to keep right at about 50% of what i "make"
if it goes to 51%, well I might just sit on the other side of the fence for a while.  And i can't be the only one thinking that.

Last time I tallied it all up for a year (I saved 99% of the years receipts), my tax burdern was running at about 53% of my gross income.  Of course, I'm childfree so I don't have those deductions and Earned Income Credit nonsense. I can not sit on the other side of the fence though.  I used to rail about an aquantance who was one of those "sit on her bum and wait for the checks" welfare parasites who would let her kid run riot in the house (her mothers, she lived in the basement), so I can not in good conscience so that very same thing myself.

Hubris?  Yes

Hypocrisy?  No.

[roo_ster]

The web of welfare & welfare-ish programs is so thick that a reasonably intelligent person motivated to leech can do so indefinitely.

For example...

A buddy of mine has a sister who graduated from Hendrix College* in Little Rock, AR.  She took the whole panoply of *-Studies courses: Women's, Black, Victim's, etc.  After graduation she worked a grand total of two weeks in a counseling center for troubled youths...where one youth stepped on her instep.

She has parleyed that into years worth of disability payments.  The gov't has given her a lawyer, as well, to help her get other goodies like SS, health insurance from her former employer & such.  When she went back for her Master's in (what else?) Social Work, the University of Arkansas at Little Rock (UALR) gave her a lawyer to sue UALR for not providing an "interpreter."  

Oh, she speaks English.  SHe just refuses to raise her voice.  SHe says it is one of her disabilities and that UALR has to provide the interpreter so she can fully participate in class.  I am not making this up.

Her buggery of the welfare/aid system was so dirty & ergregious, that her gov't-appointed lawyer begged the judge to have himself removed from her cases.  Even a lawyer found such mechanations too dirty for his conscience.

She did have a scare, though.  An investigator for worker's comp took pictures of her moving boxes out of her 2004 Honda CRV** into the house she rents** and sought to have the WC ended.  SHe hurriedly got her gov't-appointed lawyer whipped up to fight it and bought herself a 4-point cane...her now-constant companion.

SHe won her WC action and still gets it.

Every once in a while she goes to a Dr to have yet another diagnosis for yet another illness, just to make sure she stays qualified for the various disability programs.




* I have seen too many graduates of this school.  No dollar of mine will go to send a child of mine htere.

** Bought with the proceeds of her hard work(ing the system).