Another Rooski airplane doing its thing, Su-30

[BobR]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=77e_1389637750


The Su30, very F15ish looking, but looks to be a touch more nimble. I wonder if they have upgraded the engines since it was first released. It has always been known for its ability to maneuver.


bob

[230RN]

Wow.  Do they do that maneuvering with vanes in the exhaust stream or something?  Seems like at some of those slow speeds, the aero control surfaces would be inadequate.

[Azrael256]

Yeah, definitely vectored thrust.  Probably impossible to fly without computer control, too.  The Harrier is nearly impossible to fly, and it's not half that maneuverable.

[Hawkmoon]

Yeah, definitely vectored thrust.  Probably impossible to fly without computer control, too.  The Harrier is nearly impossible to fly, and it's not half that maneuverable.

Bah. The Harrier is easy. Heck, Ah-nold got the hang of it, and only took out one patrol car in the process. Was Prince "Randy Andy" Andrew a Harrier pilot in the Falkland Islands war, or was he a chopper pilot?

Seriously, the way those Russki planes can just stand on their tails in mid-air is VERY impressive.

[French G.]

The single vertical stab plane is a Eurofighter, and most likely a large scale RC too, still searching. As for the Sukhoi, the Russians have been building beautiful planes for a long time. Now if they just had radars and datalinks in the same century. And to complete my grump, airshow maneuvers are often designed to show off a plane's control envelope. Nothing really translates into crap you would pull when people were shooting at you. I love that video commentators say that dogfighting is obsolete, that's why we have short range IR homing missiles and guns right?

[BobR]

Also, the planes they bring to international air shows (any country) are usually the newest and prettiest ones they have.

IRL, the MiG 21s, 23s and25s I was fortunate (unfortunate?) to see up fairly close while minding our own business in the Sea of Okhotsk were pretty nasty looking grimy planes. But they were flying, which at that time was quite an accomplishment.

Watching an F22 do an airshow routine is pretty jaw dropping also.

bob

[Boomhauer]

The single vertical stab plane is a Eurofighter, and most likely a large scale RC too, still searching. As for the Sukhoi, the Russians have been building beautiful planes for a long time. Now if they just had radars and datalinks in the same century. And to complete my grump, airshow maneuvers are often designed to show off a plane's control envelope. Nothing really translates into crap you would pull when people were shooting at you. I love that video commentators say that dogfighting is obsolete, that's why we have short range IR homing missiles and guns right?

I hope they dont advance their avionics much. Same for the Chinese. When we go to war against them in the future we want every advantage we can get

[French G.]

The aggressor squadron I work in focuses a lot on Chinese tactics and not so much Russian. Every zomg media report about the latest chinese super weapon really never takes into account American electronic warfare and command and control capabilities. I'm sure they'd do better than the Iraqi air farce, but not sure by how much.

[Waitone]

I hope they dont advance their avionics much. Same for the Chinese. When we go to war against them in the future we want every advantage we can get

Why worry about a deficiency in avionics when you make your opponent's electronics that go into their avionics.  We are not really that smart.

[Hawkmoon]

Why worry about a deficiency in avionics when you make your opponent's electronics that go into their avionics.  We are not really that smart.

QFT.

[vaskidmark]

Cute.  Nice smoke, too.

But can they do an outside loop from under 2000 feet?

stay safe.

[RocketMan]

The Russians have been known to break their airplanes at airshows in rather spectacular fashions.

[Gowen]

Bah. The Harrier is easy. Heck, Ah-nold got the hang of it, and only took out one patrol car in the process. Was Prince "Randy Andy" Andrew a Harrier pilot in the Falkland Islands war, or was he a chopper pilot?

Seriously, the way those Russki planes can just stand on their tails in mid-air is VERY impressive.

A few years ago at the Reno Air Races, I watched a Blue Angel's F-18 do that very thing in front of the grandstands.  The ruskies aren't the only ones with tricks up their sleeves.

[AJ Dual]

Why worry about a deficiency in avionics when you make your opponent's electronics that go into their avionics.  We are not really that smart.

It's the system integration and the code where "the magic" happens. Unless they successfully sneak a back-door into the IC's it doesn't make a difference.

We actually are now at the place where it comes to radar and avionics and missiles where we thought/hoped we were with the F4's in the Vietnam era when we produced them without any kind of guns or cannon. Look down/shoot down and BVR and OTH capabilities are now rather robust in our systems.

Personally, all the controlled stalls and "cobra head maneuvers" the Russian planes can do just makes me think the "fighter mafia" has an even tighter stranglehold over their airforce than the American fighter mafia does ours, to their detriment if they should ever go head-to-head.

[Scout26]

It's also the meatware behind the stick that makes the biggest difference.  Training and maintenance wins every time.

[Tallpine]

The Russians have been known to break their airplanes at airshows in rather spectacular fashions.

Accompanied by lots of body parts among the spectators 

[Fly320s]

Definitely some RC footage mixed in.

[Azrael256]

A few years ago at the Reno Air Races, I watched a Blue Angel's F-18 do that very thing in front of the grandstands.  The ruskies aren't the only ones with tricks up their sleeves.

I think it was NASA that rigged up an F-15 to do that kind of stuff.  Vectored thrust and all.

Standing on its tail is cool and stuff, but I see lots of curved surfaces and inside corners.  Should make an efficient target.

[TommyGunn]

It's the system integration and the code where "the magic" happens. Unless they successfully sneak a back-door into the IC's it doesn't make a difference.

We actually are now at the place where it comes to radar and avionics and missiles where we thought/hoped we were with the F4's in the Vietnam era when we produced them without any kind of guns or cannon. Look down/shoot down and BVR and OTH capabilities are now rather robust in our systems.

Personally, all the controlled stalls and "cobra head maneuvers" the Russian planes can do just makes me think the "fighter mafia" has an even tighter stranglehold over their airforce than the American fighter mafia does ours, to their detriment if they should ever go head-to-head.

I once showed a film of a Soviet jet doing one of those "standing on their tail" type of tricks to the son of a friend of my mother who'd flown F-105 "Thuds" in 'Nam.  He said "they must look like a great target to the jet on their 'six'."
 
Yeah ... it may look pretty but just what IS it's wartime application?

[Boomhauer]

Yeah ... it may look pretty but just what IS it's wartime application? grin angel

The non-pilot proponents of it claim that if you have an opponent above and slightly behind you you can get them with the Cobra manuever.

Every fighter pilot I've talked to laughs their ass off at that.

It's an airshow manuever...

[Regolith]

So, apparently India has a joint development deal with Russia for a "5th Generation" stealth jet, and they aren't at all impressed with the prototype:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/01/26/russian-rubbish-india-reportedly-disappointed-with-stealth-fighters-from-moscow/?intcmp=obinsite

The Russian prototype is "unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered,” said Indian Air Force Deputy Air Marshall S Sukumar at a Jan. 15 meeting, according to minutes obtained by the Business Standard.

Yeah, this thing can do tail-stands, but if its hardware is built to similar standards, it probably wouldn't survive a 'standup' fight.

[French G.]

The non-pilot proponents of it claim that if you have an opponent above and slightly behind you you can get them with the Cobra manuever.

Every fighter pilot I've talked to laughs their ass off at that.

It's an airshow manuever...

Yes, that's all it is. Shows off some amazing aspect of the flight envelope. Any combat maneuver that bleeds your energy off to zero would be most welcome to your opponent.

[Gewehr98]

Not always.

Harrier pilots used their thrust vectoring to good effect in dogfights.   



Getting whomever's on your tail to overshoot and present their 6 o'clock to you is quite useful.

You can do that with speed brakes, thrust vectoring, unbalanced (non-stable) fly-by-wire flight controls, you name it. 

Obviously, preventing an aggressor from getting into firing position would be the best solution, but if you're already in a pinch, it's nice to have a Plan B.

You're limited by how many G's the pilot can endure in the violent maneuver, but it's already part of the training for our folks in the cockpit.

[TommyGunn]

Not always.

Harrier pilots used their thrust vectoring to good effect in dogfights.  



Getting whomever's on your tail to overshoot and present their 6 o'clock to you is quite useful.

You can do that with speed brakes, thrust vectoring, unbalanced (non-stable) fly-by-wire flight controls, you name it.  

Obviously, preventing an aggressor from getting into firing position would be the best solution, but if you're already in a pinch, it's nice to have a Plan B.

You're limited by how many G's the pilot can endure in the violent maneuver, but it's already part of the training for our folks in the cockpit.

I recall the claim that Harriers did those maneuvers....but.......
Shortly after the Falklands War ended I remember reading an article, I think in Space and Aviation Weekly in which the British CAG (Air Group Commander) aboard one of the carriers that had participated in the war unequivocally stated that no Harrier used the "VIFF" maneuver during the War because,as French G. said; "Any combat maneuver that bleeds your energy off to zero would be most welcome to your opponent."
Also, it took too long for the Harrier to regain the lost airspeed. 

[Gewehr98]

Only if he survived his own overshoot.