Author Topic: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax  (Read 41073 times)

charby

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #100 on: March 25, 2008, 10:22:40 AM »
Some sort of light rail could work in some areas.

...but companies will have to change work practices to allow workers to commute via mass transit. Perhaps the 24 hour store will go back to 8am-9pm business hours. Stores will be closed on Sundays again, etc.

I can see light rail and heavy rail working for freight.

...but again business will have to go back to having stockrooms and warehousing goods instead of having daily trucked deliveries.

I remember when grocery stores were about the same size as the produce section of the moder super markets are now, as fuel costs drive up shipping costs I think we are going to have a lot fewer choices in fresh produce or even foods from other parts of the US. As a kid it was very rare to see very much seafood at the meat counter, but there was a lot of frozen seafood, now it is the opposite.

Lifestyles will change when it becomes too expensive to stock certain goods because people will not buy them at the cost that they need to be sold at.

Society is going to have to slow down, global overnight delivery of tangible items will probably fade, office type business may close during the warm months or cold months because it will be too expensive to heat or cool.

Who knows? I do know that our current American lifestyle was created by cheap hydrocarbons.



Iowa- 88% more livable that the rest of the US

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roo_ster

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #101 on: March 25, 2008, 01:02:52 PM »
And they're falling apart in areas where the transportation dollars get diverted from pothole repair and bridge fixes to idiotic utopian transportation schemes out of the 1957 World's Fair brochure.



Can I hear an "Amen!?"

I want every penny I pay in fuel taxes spent on the roads.  Utopian mass-transit schemes can get their own funding.
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MechAg94

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #102 on: March 25, 2008, 01:11:10 PM »
Firethorn, I agree on the idea of elevating the rail.  I don't know how much it costs, but it would be more functional.  However, rail in general is going to be more costly than other alternatives.  I have heard the cost per new rider for rail these days is extremely high.  Almost high enough that you could afford to chauffeur all the riders separately.  For less cost, you could probably afford to set up a city shop to give free overhauls and improvements to reduce pollution and increase mileage; or subsidize high MPG car purchases. 

Would those pods be more useful if they were actually little hatchback cars that could move off the rail and drive to your destination?

I do agree that we always have choices, but I think you are envisioning a setup where our choices are "damned if you do, damned if you don't". 
I also think any solutions you envision should include everyone, not just cities.  If you just want to change cities, then make sure the legal changes are at the city and county level, not statewide or nationwide.  The cities can pay for their own utopian ideas.  Smiley
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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #103 on: March 25, 2008, 01:14:59 PM »
Rail for people travel is a stupid, last century idea.  Inefficient waste of time and money.  Who are we?  Japan?  Telecommuting and higher mileage and alternative fuel vehicles are where our resources should go.

MechAg94

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #104 on: March 25, 2008, 01:35:37 PM »
Now that I agree with. 

Telecommuting alone would eliminate a lot of fuel usage. 
So would companies moving their offices closer to where their employees live.  Does an office building have to be downtown? 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Firethorn

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #105 on: March 25, 2008, 02:06:55 PM »
Firethorn, I agree on the idea of elevating the rail.  I don't know how much it costs, but it would be more functional.

Due to the light weight of PRT proposals, they're talking about $1-10 million per mile, elevated, which is actually LESS than new road construction/expansion in most cases.  They make up their capacity by being constant and using computer control and linear braking systems that allow decelerations somewhere between maximum braking speed for a car with sticky tires on dry pavement and a medium speed crash to reduce following distances to 'insane in a car'.  Yes, this means that you should be wearing your seatbelt.  Redundant control systems and sensors help ensure that collisions don't happen, essentially eliminating a common delay in many cities(auto accidents).  Given a vehicle that's also half the length of the average car and you've got several lanes worth of traffic on a single rail.

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However, rail in general is going to be more costly than other alternatives.  I have heard the cost per new rider for rail these days is extremely high.  Almost high enough that you could afford to chauffeur all the riders separately.  For less cost, you could probably afford to set up a city shop to give free overhauls and improvements to reduce pollution and increase mileage; or subsidize high MPG car purchases. 

Which is why I don't normally advocate rail - in 90% of cases it's slower than cars, doesn't necessarily go where people need it to go, the very expense of it means that you can't put enough stations in around the area to service within what could be considered an acceptable area.  Except in certain extremely developed areas like NYC, of course.

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Would those pods be more useful if they were actually little hatchback cars that could move off the rail and drive to your destination?

Maybe, but the weight increase would render it much more expensive and therefore less economic.  Personally, I'd tend towards making golf cart type vehicles available to rent at selected stations.  Make 4 person pods and have foldable seats and you'd have some pretty good storage space.  For bonus, design the system with 'cargo pods' that you can load and take to a destination.  One idea I had was fast food delivery pods - heck, Pizza Hut(or it's competitors) might make a pod with a pizza oven inside.  Load pizzas in the store, and it's delivered to the station freshly baked and piping hot.  Though I only see that if you have good penetration IN apartment complexes and such.  Oh, and the ability to take pods offline completely.  The idea being that you can load/unload while other people get on or off the station(already off the main line) independent of you.

If it reached national level, I could see holding Fedex, UPS, USPS, DHL, etc...  over a barrel.  It would probably be a love/hate relationship.  They can load pods up and get overnight delivery without the air part over substantial areas.  Two day would be land without question.  On the other hand the company/companies could form their own package service.  By my calcs, a pod should take a maximum of 31 hours worst case@100mph in the CONUS. NYC to San Fran would be 26 hours.

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I do agree that we always have choices, but I think you are envisioning a setup where our choices are "damned if you do, damned if you don't". 

To be perfectly honest, I think that I'll live to see the end of the domination petroleum fuels have had over our movement.  So yes, it's very much a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.  Therefore it's in my best interest to see as smooth of a transition as possible.

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I also think any solutions you envision should include everyone, not just cities.  If you just want to change cities, then make sure the legal changes are at the city and county level, not statewide or nationwide.  The cities can pay for their own utopian ideas.  Smiley

To be perfectly honest, I envision putting PRT everywhere, just starting with the cities where you have the population to justify them, a maximum population for maximum potential passenger miles.  The ideal is that once the system reaches a certain size it becomes self supporting, profitable, at which point you'd be able to expand the system without using public money.  Malls, for example, would pay to be connected fairly early on in most cases.  Start with the inner cities, then move on to park&ride in the Suburbs, then concentrate on getting stations within walking distance.  I'd even see going so far as to connect various cities together in a web if it's capable of high speeds.

That'll free up a LOT of oil to feed those of us out in the boonies, or even get it down to the point that biodiesel/ethanol can work.

Paddy, would you consider PRT to be 'last century'?  After all, it uses some ideas from ethernet packing routing!

Quote from: MechAg94
So would companies moving their offices closer to where their employees live.  Does an office building have to be downtown?

Very true.  Heck, Dad used to work at a business that had it's offices, not downtown, but over at the mall(not storefront, what I'd call an 'auxillery' building).  Heck, even if the office is downtown, the expense of housing in the area is a sign that there's not enough of it.  Like I said, adjust things so that housing is easier/cheaper to create and maintain there.  The price will eventually drop, more people will live where they don't really need a car.  As for telecommuting, we aren't quite there yet, some can't handle it.  One thing I'll also point out is that once telecommuting takes hold - there's little preventing the job from being outsourced to India.

MechAg94

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #106 on: March 25, 2008, 04:52:32 PM »
To be perfectly honest, I think that I'll live to see the end of the domination petroleum fuels have had over our movement.  So yes, it's very much a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation.  Therefore it's in my best interest to see as smooth of a transition as possible.
I really don't think I'll live to see the end of oil.  If we do run out, I think it will be a longer way off than that.  IMO, we will come up with technological alternatives first. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #107 on: March 25, 2008, 05:01:09 PM »
Very true.  Heck, Dad used to work at a business that had it's offices, not downtown, but over at the mall(not storefront, what I'd call an 'auxillery' building).  Heck, even if the office is downtown, the expense of housing in the area is a sign that there's not enough of it.  Like I said, adjust things so that housing is easier/cheaper to create and maintain there.  The price will eventually drop, more people will live where they don't really need a car. As for telecommuting, we aren't quite there yet, some can't handle it.  One thing I'll also point out is that once telecommuting takes hold - there's little preventing the job from being outsourced to India.
Personally, I don't think people will choose to live in compact housing areas if they have a choice.  I think suburbs and urban sprawl happens precely because people want their little piece of space. 

A guy I work with used to live in the Netherlands.  They apparently got rid of land use laws that prevented housing development of farmland so that most everyone lived in huge apartment blocks that housed thousands.  Since those land use laws went away, they have been seeing a great deal of housing development as people try to get out of those apartment blocks.  It just seemed to me to be a good example of what people will do if given a choice.

Telecommuting is not an option for me.  I need to be at the plant to do my job.  It would be tough for me to even figure one day a week.  4 ten hour days is a more workable option. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

mtnbkr

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #108 on: March 25, 2008, 05:12:34 PM »
So would companies moving their offices closer to where their employees live.  Does an office building have to be downtown? 

People used to live downtown, then they moved out into the 'burbs.  Also, companies like to be near other companies or near mass transit, airports, etc. 

That said, a company I used to work for would plot all its employees on a map and pick a central location when moving to a new office.  Not sure how common that is, but they did it.

Chris

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #109 on: March 25, 2008, 05:40:00 PM »
MechAg94, you, like many on this board, aren't necessarily the target audience.  Not everybody needs to change - just enough to reduce usage a bit where it's perhaps not as necessary.  In your case, what about when the truck is no longer operational?  The oil issue, if it is a issue, can be worked on a replacement through attrition basis.  In addition, at 10 miles you could be served by an electric vehicle rather easily.

Hmm...  10 miles, I'll figure 15mpg for your truck.  20 miles a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year.  That's 5000 miles a year for your commute(estimated).  333 gallons of gasoline.  Figure $3.50/gallon, that's $1167 a year.  Discounting oil changes, insurance, maintenance, depreciation from the miles, etc...  If they could produce a electric vehicle with a ~50 mile range and decent speed for ~$6k it'd make sense for you buy one now.

Except that, most likely, it wouldn't.   You're forgetting (or ignoring) the fact that many (Most?  Just about all?) need far more capacity at certain intervals than what they "usually" use.  I don't know about Manedwolf or MechAg94, but I need a vehicle that will carry a modest amount of low-density cargo (greater than 1 45-gallon wheeled bin, plus assorted other stuff) plus up to 4 people, and which will allow me to travel upwards of 1000 miles at a shot, in virtually any weather/road conditions up through an upstate-NY winter.  For this purpose, I have chosen a Subaru Forester, and it will do all of that admirably, requiring 2 ~5-minute refuelings to make that thousand-mile trip in one long driving day (if I start with a full gas tank).  The most common use I have for this vehicle is a 25-mile round trip commute in Northern VA to the water-production facility I work 12-hour rotating shifts at (Telecommute?  Carpool?  Mass-transit?  HAH!).  The point is, I *HAVE* to have that extra capacity, or I can't do the things I want and sometimes NEED to do.  An electric car which can travel 100 miles at 50mph on a full charge, and requires a multi-hour charge at a non-wall-current receptacle - a vehicle which would satisfy my routine-local-travel needs - is utterly useless for me, and for literally EVERYONE I know.

HankB

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #110 on: March 26, 2008, 03:45:54 AM »
The Austin, TX public transportation organization, Cap Metro, is even now running tests on light rail. They bought a bunch of rail cars from Europe that ended up costing about twice what they told voters when the bond issues were floated, and it turns out they have to file for safety exemptions on these things since the cars don't meet existing US DOT passenger car standards.

And a lot of folks consider their financial projections to be dodgy, at best. Given the amount of money Cap Metro spends to run (largely) empty busses, I expect this scam to be thoroughly discredited within a few years at most, despite the best efforts of the spinmeisters.

If I had the resources, I'd "follow the money" and investigate how much ended up in the pockets of Cap Metro board members, their extended families, or campaign contributors.

Personally, I don't think people will choose to live in compact housing areas if they have a choice.  I think suburbs and urban sprawl happens precely because people want their little piece of space.

It's called home ownership.

People like it.

Not everyone relishes the thought of being crowded into apartments, condos, or tenements in areas with high population density . . . all too often, these areas devolve into ghettos.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #111 on: March 26, 2008, 04:02:46 AM »
Now that I agree with. 

Telecommuting alone would eliminate a lot of fuel usage. 
So would companies moving their offices closer to where their employees live.  Does an office building have to be downtown? 

Unfortunately, telecommuting is good way to never advance far in your career.

Think "Out of sight, out of mind."

When it comes time to round off the balance sheet to please shareholders for the quarters, who is more likely to be rounded off? Someone whose name isn't even known around the office, because they telecommute all the time? Or someone who is there every day, leading every meeting, in person, personality known and liked in person?

HR managers know quite well that making someone who is well-liked leave with their box in front of everyone hurts morale, whereas if a telecommuter is rounded off, all that happens is that their email doesn't work anymore, responsibilities shift, and one or two people might notice in passing conversation a month or so later.

And PRT is still asinine. It'd be vandalized within a week, and continually so. From people taking a wiz in the pods, to slashing the seats, to setting fire to the pods, to punks dropping a busbar across the rails to shut down the ENTIRE SYSTEM at rush hour, it'd be abandoned ruins with lots of taxpayer dollars within a year.

Why do you think it's been a head-in-the-clouds concept for over half a century? Because people eventually realize that it won't work. Their slender tracks suddenly run into reality, and become massive things with drip pans, escape walkways, and handicapped access, and they realize it'd look like Chicago's L with tiny easily-vandalized pods on it. You are aware that laws require escape walkways along the entire run of any track now, right? The utopian dream becomes a nightmare of programming to ensure how all those switches will operate at peak periods without a complete jam or collisions, and the cost goes up, and up, and up, and up. Then there's the fact that sending a car off to a city center with a bomb in it would be an ideal guided missile for any terrorist to use.

Let it go. It failed. It's a dream, like flying cars. One that just won't work. Leave it in science fiction movies, and live in the real world.

MechAg94

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #112 on: March 26, 2008, 05:27:00 AM »
I do agree on telecommuting as a full time thing.  I think it is  large job dependent and for most it would be part time only.  Things like working 4-10's and such would help also, but are also not for everyone. 
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Firethorn

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #113 on: March 26, 2008, 05:47:50 AM »
I really don't think I'll live to see the end of oil.  If we do run out, I think it will be a longer way off than that.  IMO, we will come up with technological alternatives first. 

I didn't say the end of oil, I didn't say that we would run out.

I was trying to say that I expect to live to see the end of the majority of our travel being based off of petroleum fuel.  49% of travel could still be by oil products.  Just not the 99.9% it is today.

Quote from: Manedwolf
And PRT is still asinine. It'd be vandalized within a week, and continually so. From people taking a wiz in the pods, to slashing the seats, to setting fire to the pods, to punks dropping a busbar across the rails to shut down the ENTIRE SYSTEM at rush hour, it'd be abandoned ruins with lots of taxpayer dollars within a year.

1.  They'll be charged for it.  Easy access to who did it via the card they used to enter.  The NYC subway system seems to be able to exist despite the existence of punks.
2.  Haven't heard of too many subway/railcar fires, do you have some reason to believe that punks will enjoy setting fire to the smaller cars more?  Not to mention the only places they'll generally be immobile is in a video monitored station.
3.  Again, why would this be a problem for PRT but not for all the other electric rail systems out there, such as NYC's electric rail?  If anything, it'd be darwin award country to climb up to an elevated, ACTIVE track to try to short it out with a bus bar.  The systems I've seen have sheltered bars as well, so we're not talking about just dropping a bar on it.
4.  Even if they DO manage to short out the electricity(or other hazards take it out), the cars have enough juice in a battery to make it to the next station at least.
5.  They're building one now, we'll see.  It's not what I'd consider the best system, having a top speed of only 25mph, but it's at an airport, and they have plans that if the test install works, to spread it to cover hotels and other places.

Please, if you would, explain to me why PRT pods would be more of a target for vandalism than subways, busses, trains, etc...

It failed?  It's never been truly tested.  The closest was Morgantownbuilt back in the 70s, is still in operation today, but suffered from a number of problems because it was new technlogies and limited because of the technology of the day.  It's also not considered PRT today, instead being closer to a AMT system.  Despite this, it has a 98% uptime in 2007 and moves 16k people a day.

Because of the size of the cars, the tracks have to be heavier and therefore more expensive than what PRT proponents(like me) propose.  

As for failing in the past, why should it fail now?  It's not like it doesn't leverage one of the things that have advanced the most in the last 30 years - computer command and control technology, electric motors, and such.

edit:  Erik,

One of the things I look at is a 98% utility rate - IE you rent a vehicle that can perform the extra tasks when you need it.  Right now gasoline is still cheap enough for you to burn extra to have the additional capacity at your fingertips, but that may not be true in the future.  If they can come out with a cheap enough commuter, you might be able to have the big truck and only drive it when it's needed, and actually save money by driving the cheap commuter when possible.

Besides, as I keep saying, it's all about the margins - you might not change, somebody else will.  Get enough people over to more efficient options, you might be able to continue your lifestyle for a few years longer.

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #114 on: March 26, 2008, 06:28:03 AM »
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Please, if you would, explain to me why PRT pods would be more of a target for vandalism than subways, busses, trains, etc...
Witnesses.

We need another public transport boondoggle like we need another hole ion the head.
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roo_ster

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grampster

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #115 on: March 26, 2008, 06:39:14 AM »
In most places in our country, light rail is a boondogle and cost prohibitive, as well as stupid.  In Grand Rapids, Mi, the moonbats in government and DDA etc are actually contemplating spending maybe a million dollars to study the efficacy of a a light rail and trolley system.  The light rail would start south of town and go downtown.  Nevermind there isn't a compelling reason to do that.  And that there are 3 other sections of town that contains an equal amount of people.  Nobody rides the bus now.  The electric trolley would add rails to the streets downtown and not have the power to ascend Michigan street hill, where, umm, 90% of the people will be headed to the "Medical Mile" as GR turns itself into a state of the art medical destination.  (Shakes head) 

Maybe 10 years ago they began assembling an elevated, temp controlled walkway in the resurging downtown.  It was to connect every major building in the downtown.  It was a terrific idea. They connected about a half dozen buildings and quit.  They've been arguing about it since.  The main argument is they want people on the streets to use the shops.  Duh.  With the walkway people could actually get to the shops dry, warm/cool and get a little exercise, especially since the walkway was also intended to connect folks to the remote parking areas.

I've long been a fan of elevated, electric or mag lev high speed trains that criss cross the country using the freeway r.o.w.  Electricity from nuclear energy.  Creates all kinds of jobs.  Cheap fast transportation.  Increase tourist trade.  Reduces the need to drive cross country.  Uhhh, people fly all over now.  High speed trains could compete with air travel (reducing the crowded airways) as well as haul freight.  The trucking industry could join with the elevated and short haul trucking would thrive as would rental car business for travelers.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #116 on: March 26, 2008, 06:58:11 AM »
1.  They'll be charged for it.  Easy access to who did it via the card they used to enter.  The NYC subway system seems to be able to exist despite the existence of punks.

Do you mean the stolen card, or do you mean like how ATM vestibules open for any card with a magstripe, no matter what it is or if it's expired, because that was the cheapest kind of lock? NYC subway has SUBWAY COPS. ON THE TRAINS. Have you ever been to NYC?

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2.  Haven't heard of too many subway/railcar fires, do you have some reason to believe that punks will enjoy setting fire to the smaller cars more?  Not to mention the only places they'll generally be immobile is in a video monitored station.

Ooh, more video cameras and more people to monitor the cameras. Ca-ching, ca-ching, keep addding up the $$$$$$. Not to mention that a camera in the pod can be taken care of by a guy in a hoodie in sunglasses holding up a small spraypaint can. Do you really not understand how taggers and punks think?
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3.  Again, why would this be a problem for PRT but not for all the other electric rail systems out there, such as NYC's electric rail?  If anything, it'd be darwin award country to climb up to an elevated, ACTIVE track to try to short it out with a bus bar.  The systems I've seen have sheltered bars as well, so we're not talking about just dropping a bar on it.

Small tracks in a bad area, keep throwing bent drycleaning hangers and metal debris up on the track till you hear a bang, run away laughing and yelling. Or just toss bricks up there till the cars jam on things that wouldn't stop a full-sized train. You really haven't been to any inner cities, have you.

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4.  Even if they DO manage to short out the electricity(or other hazards take it out), the cars have enough juice in a battery to make it to the next station at least.

Here's where you fail completely. Such a system requires that the whole network be up to handle the switches that stop it from just being a traffic jam. Plus, if there's a jam or other malfunction, there goes the firefighters to get the people out, scare, ridership goes down, costs go up, more ca-ching, ca-ching, $$$$$$$.

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5.  They're building one now, we'll see.  It's not what I'd consider the best system, having a top speed of only 25mph, but it's at an airport, and they have plans that if the test install works, to spread it to cover hotels and other places.

An airport is a controlled environment. Does not apply to the real world outside it. BTW, Vegas' monorail was a total failure. Nobody used it! They're pushing to make the company take the tracks down before they declare bankruptcy and are forced to leave them in place as abandoned eyesore ruins.

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Please, if you would, explain to me why PRT pods would be more of a target for vandalism than subways, busses, trains, etc...

It failed?  It's never been truly tested.  The closest was Morgantownbuilt back in the 70s, is still in operation today, but suffered from a number of problems because it was new technlogies and limited because of the technology of the day.  It's also not considered PRT today, instead being closer to a AMT system.  Despite this, it has a 98% uptime in 2007 and moves 16k people a day.

Read about Raytheon bailing the hell out of a project as the costs ballooned, then get back to me. Morgantown. Ha!

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Because of the size of the cars, the tracks have to be heavier and therefore more expensive than what PRT proponents(like me) propose. 

Your tracks are impossible. Did you entirely miss what I said about ALL tracks now requiring escape walkways along the entire length of the track run, as well as falling-object shields and drip pans, plus handicapped access? That is the LAW. You cannot get around that. There will be catwalks allowing a single file line of people on either side. That is how it is.

You just don't understand the reality, or the costs. It's why it's nothing but a failed concept.

Firethorn

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #117 on: March 26, 2008, 07:46:22 AM »
Do you mean the stolen card, or do you mean like how ATM vestibules open for any card with a magstripe, no matter what it is or if it's expired, because that was the cheapest kind of lock? NYC subway has SUBWAY COPS. ON THE TRAINS. Have you ever been to NYC?

They stole the card, got the pin and the person hasn't reported it stolen yet?  Probably rare.  The proposals I've seen generally take a fare card.  Some might interface with a credit card.  One of the nicer proposals that way is that because you're ID'd, your frequent destinations can come up on a short list.  Oh, and the subway cops can't be everywhere.

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Ooh, more video cameras and more people to monitor the cameras. Ca-ching, ca-ching, keep addding up the $$$$$$. Not to mention that a camera in the pod can be taken care of by a guy in a hoodie in sunglasses holding up a small spraypaint can. Do you really not understand how taggers and punks think?

Cameras are cheap, and they won't be in the pod, they'll be in the stations.  A pod outside a station will be traveling, most likely on an elevated rail.  Not what I'd call an easy target.  Worst case, yes, security guards/cops could be hired to patrol the stations on a random basis.

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Small tracks in a bad area, keep throwing bent drycleaning hangers and metal debris up on the track till you hear a bang, run away laughing and yelling. Or just toss bricks up there till the cars jam on things that wouldn't stop a full-sized train. You really haven't been to any inner cities, have you.

Small tracks with covered rails, they can toss and laugh all day or until their arm gets tired.  The same design that keeps water, snow, and ice from accumulating will let the brick fall down too.  Dry Cleaning hangers?  Given the amperage the track's likely to operate at, it probably won't survive contact long enough to throw the breakers.

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Here's where you fail completely. Such a system requires that the whole network be up to handle the switches that stop it from just being a traffic jam. Plus, if there's a jam or other malfunction, there goes the firefighters to get the people out, scare, ridership goes down, costs go up, more ca-ching, ca-ching, $$$$$$$.

Here's where you've invested no thought.  Each car is capable of independent action - the car itself worries about not hitting the one in front of it.  It also knows how to get off at the next station if it loses signaling, just the same as if it loses power.

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An airport is a controlled environment. Does not apply to the real world outside it. BTW, Vegas' monorail was a total failure. Nobody used it! They're pushing to make the company take the tracks down before they declare bankruptcy and are forced to leave them in place as abandoned eyesore ruins.

It's outside the wire, to remote parking lots for the trial install.  They also have plans to run it out to local services such as hotels.

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Read about Raytheon bailing the hell out of a project as the costs ballooned, then get back to me. Morgantown. Ha!

You're right.  We need to stop using Airplanes because they sucked so much in the beginning.  Oh wait, we kept using them and developed the technology to the point we can use them to transport tanks and such.

Morgantown was an experiment.  I'm talking about learning from the mistakes made there, adjusting with new technologies and use the resources we have today that we didn't in 1975 - cheap and ample computing power, sophisticated yet inexpensive computers, etc...

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Your tracks are impossible. Did you entirely miss what I said about ALL tracks now requiring escape walkways along the entire length of the track run, as well as falling-object shields and drip pans, plus handicapped access? That is the LAW. You cannot get around that. There will be catwalks allowing a single file line of people on either side. That is how it is.

Actually, I did miss that part.  Sorry.  Still, you're talking about LAW - California law at that.  And the department responsible has the option of waiving those requirements.  So it could be installed in Florida without having to meet California requirements.  The federal part - handicapped access is already addressed.  Ramps or even elevators in the station, fold up a seat for a wheelchair.  Failing that, yes shields and pans could be put in, and yes, it would increase the costs.  They would also be able to be lighter than such systems for heavier transport systems.

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You just don't understand the reality, or the costs. It's why it's nothing but a failed concept.

undeveloped concept, not failed.

You keep assuming active sabotage and crazy rules that won't be modified if push comes to shove.

taurusowner

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #118 on: March 27, 2008, 11:02:12 PM »
Let them try it.  Maybe it will kick this state in the arse and show us that we need to fire the libs next election.

MechAg94

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #119 on: March 28, 2008, 03:57:32 AM »
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You keep assuming active sabotage and crazy rules that won't be modified if push comes to shove.
Given that we are talking about not only Govt, but local City Govt, crazy rules and lack of adjustment is not a bad assumption. 

You seem to assume this will work, that all the problems will be worked out, and that it will be worth the billions it will take to make it operable.  I don't think that is the best of assumptions.  It won't be some great leader/manager put in charge of this, it will be some relative/crony of an elected official or Metro official.  I think that is a good assumption no matter where it gets built.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

lupinus

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #120 on: March 28, 2008, 10:56:57 AM »
Yep, cause the already massive taxes and increasing price have stopped people from driving needless places with little if any thought right?

Two things will help us, and two things only.  Fix the dollar.  It's broke, it's constantly worth less and less.  When you buy things internationally as we do a good bit of our oil the value of a dollar plays a huge role in the cost.  If the dollar is worth half as much, the same item costs twice as much.  Also, we have plenty of oil here, start making use of it.  Tell the environmental weenies to sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride of they can move.  This helps two ways.  One, buying at home we aren't at the mercy of ye old sultan.  Second, domestic prices have much less to do with how the dollar is doing overseas.  If the value of a dollar internationally goes down overseas, it's still relatively the same here as it was yesterday.

A distant third is alternative energy.  But that takes a long time to get going, get workable, and get using.  It's just not the immediate solution, we need one that can hold us over in the mean time.  One, because the alternative tech just isn't there yet and even once it's there we need to get infrastructure in place.  Second, if tomorrow hydrogen cars were magically ready for market and the stations were available to fuel up, not everyone will have one tomorrow.  They will be expensive at first.  And even once they became more reasonable, it's still going to take years for Joe six pack to get one.  How many people drive around in ten or twenty year old cars?  Sure, some do it cause they love the car, most do it because it's what they could afford.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

Firethorn

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #121 on: March 29, 2008, 04:17:08 PM »
A distant third is alternative energy.  But that takes a long time to get going, get workable, and get using.  It's just not the immediate solution, we need one that can hold us over in the mean time.  One, because the alternative tech just isn't there yet and even once it's there we need to get infrastructure in place.  Second, if tomorrow hydrogen cars were magically ready for market and the stations were available to fuel up, not everyone will have one tomorrow.  They will be expensive at first.  And even once they became more reasonable, it's still going to take years for Joe six pack to get one.  How many people drive around in ten or twenty year old cars?  Sure, some do it cause they love the car, most do it because it's what they could afford.

With the increase in fuel costs; it may be cheaper in many cases to go with a newer vehicle that's more efficient; however I'm aware that many 'poor' are that way at least partially due to poor money management skills, thus often not able to get the credit for a better car, or even willing or able to make the calculations to say that that $1k car will end up costing less than the $500 one.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #122 on: March 29, 2008, 05:22:31 PM »
Am I the only person who understands that people buy oil because they want oil? 

Oil is a truly miraculous thing.  For $3, a gallon of gasoline can move you, 3 or 4 other people, and maybe half a ton of cargo 20 or 30 miles, and it can do it quickly, easily, safely, and comfortably.  That's a bargain.  It would be bargain at $5/gal, or $10/gal.  We might choose to use less of it at $10/gal, but it'd still be a bargain compared to walking (and carrying your own cargo) those 20 or 30 miles.

I say quit yer bitchin' and be grateful you live in modern America.

Firethorn

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #123 on: March 29, 2008, 06:32:55 PM »
Am I the only person who understands that people buy oil because they want oil? 

Yep.  I don't buy oil because I like it, I buy oil because it's the most economic substance for me to get from point A to B in a reasonable amount of time on demand.

You offer me an alternative fuel that would work out cheaper, like electric(assuming magic batteries are invented for EVs) and I'd switch.

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Oil is a truly miraculous thing.  For $3, a gallon of gasoline can move you, 3 or 4 other people, and maybe half a ton of cargo 20 or 30 miles, and it can do it quickly, easily, safely, and comfortably.  That's a bargain.  It would be bargain at $5/gal, or $10/gal.  We might choose to use less of it at $10/gal, but it'd still be a bargain compared to walking (and carrying your own cargo) those 20 or 30 miles.

I believe that the biggest cause of increases in oil prices lately have been the industrialization of China and India.  This is not going to go away.

Part of the problem is that we've invested so much into our road systems, and ultimately they're not the most efficient.  And their nature makes automatic driving orders of magnitude higher.  Personally, I'd LOVE to be able to read a book or something while heading into work.  Reduce the number of cars on the road, get people out of driving, and you'd reduce fatalities and injuries tremendously.

Oh, and I AM glad I'm an American.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Michigan democrat proposes 50-cent-per-gallon gas tax
« Reply #124 on: March 29, 2008, 06:57:30 PM »
Am I the only person who understands that people buy oil because they want oil? 

Yep.  I don't buy oil because I like it, I buy oil because it's the most economic substance for me to get from point A to B in a reasonable amount of time on demand.

You offer me an alternative fuel that would work out cheaper, like electric(assuming magic batteries are invented for EVs) and I'd switch.

Perhaps I wasn't clear.  Let me rephrase that:

People buy oil because they want what only oil can provide.

Transportation means oil, plain and simple.  There are no viable alternatives today.  Maybe someday we'll come up with something better.  When that happens people will switch.  Trying to force people give up or reduce oil usage before then is an exercise in futility, if not stupidity.

We can debate the merits of mandating this or subsidizing that or taxing everything else.  In the end all we're really debating is whether free people should be forced by government into doing something they don't want to do: giving up oil and with it the freedom to travel easily.

I'm not sure why anyone would be in favor of that.