Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MechAg94 on May 31, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-ignition-lawsuit/ten-automakers-are-sued-in-u-s-over-deadly-keyless-ignitions-idUSKCN0QV1PH20150826
(Reuters) - Ten of the world’s biggest automakers were sued on Wednesday by U.S. consumers who claim they concealed the risks of carbon monoxide poisoning in more than 5 million vehicles equipped with keyless ignitions, leading to 13 deaths.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/keyless-automobile-ignition-systems-are-fatally-flawed-critics-say-n490111
I don't have keyless ignition. However, I was thinking about a new vehicle later this year which would have that feature.
I can understand wanting an auto-shutoff feature, but I am not seeing why the automakers are to blame. A driver could just as easily walk away with their key left in the ignition. The keyless ignition might make that easier to do, but it isn't a new risk. Also, I can see not noticing a car is running outside, but in a garage, that noise is more obvious.
The lawsuit was filed in the same federal court in Los Angeles where Toyota has defended against claims that its vehicles accelerated unintentionally.
U.S. District Judge James Selna in July 2013 approved a $1.6 billion settlement to resolve claims that Toyotas lost value because of that defect. The ignition lawsuit was assigned to U.S. District Judge Andre Birotte.
I am sure this was just a coincidence.
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My wife's Ford has keyless ignition. If you get out of the car with the engine still running, first there are alarm chimes inside the car that go off when you open the door. The car then honks the horn if the car is still running and the driver's door is opened then closed. So, there are warnings that the car gives you before you walk away from a running vehicle.
Now, as to a shut off feature, I'm a little concerned about that, and here's why. From time to time, the car will give a warning that the key is not detected while driving down the street. Sometimes it depends on where SWMBO has the "key" in her purse. For me, it depends on what else I have in my pocket with the "key," (and I seem to find that if I am carrying the key fob in my right pocket and carrying a handgun at appendix back to around 3 o'clock on my waste, or if I am carrying a larger folding knife clipped on my right pocket like my RAT-1). With an auto shutoff feature, my worry is that I'm driving down the street, the "key" is not detected, and I either need to scramble to dig the damn thing out of my pocket, or the engine shuts off. That would be bad.
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Interesting coincidence. Last week my 90 year old dad took what he says will be his last drivers license renewal test before he gives up driving. In celebration of passing it, a couple of hours later we were sitting in the BMW dealership doing the paperwork on the new 530i he just bought. It's the first keyless vehicle I've dealt with.
While I had no problem with it, one of the first things my dad did was start to exit the vehicle with the engine running. His unfamiliarity with the system, coupled with his degraded hearing, coupled with a very quiet and smooth engine, had him exiting the car without realizing the engine was on. It happened while I was helping him figure all the doodads out, so we made sure to create a simple system to let him make sure the engine is off before he walks away from the car (like checking the tach needle).
So I can certainly see how this could easily happen, though I tend toward "personal responsibility" as the solution. I suppose it wouldn't be difficult for manufacturers to install a sensor in the drivers seat that turns off the engine when there's no driver in the car, much as the the seatbelt sensor goes off when it detects weight. Though I guess that would cancel remote start for vehicles with that capability.
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Both my '14 BMW and Mrs. Mush's 15 Mazda have keyless ignition. I've gotten out with them running (on purpose) several times and both cars lose their damn minds when you do that. Various beeps, honks, chirps and lights go off. You aren't going to actually walk away from the vehicle unless you are impressively oblivious.
The lawsuit is ambulance chasing crap (IMHO) that will probably mess up one of the truly handy improvements in cars in the last decade. I love not having to dig keys out to get in and drive.
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If they can have a seatbelt warning interlock built into the driver's seat, and they can have seat occupant interlocks for airbags, there is no reason why they can't easily have a driver's seat interlock for the ignition.
Personally, I don't ever want a vehicle that doesn't use a key.
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The lawsuit is ambulance chasing crap (IMHO)
Bingo.
I'm a fan of keyless ignition. Both my Explorer and 228i have it.
In all of the cars I've owned or driven, I have never accidentally walked away from a running car.
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I've had keyless cars for a nearly a decade. I just got a new '18 Chevy Colorado 4x4. It has an ignition key. I'm having an awful time getting remembering that. I get in the truck and have to get the key out of my pocket, especially when I have my seat belt on already. Having to dig it out or get out of the truck to get it out of my pocket is a pain. Pavlov's grampster.
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"though I tend toward "personal responsibility" as the solution."
How the hell are you going to win a huge settlement if you take personal responsibility?
Don't you know it's everyone else's fault?
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Both my '14 BMW and Mrs. Mush's 15 Mazda have keyless ignition. I've gotten out with them running (on purpose) several times and both cars lose their damn minds when you do that. Various beeps, honks, chirps and lights go off. You aren't going to actually walk away from the vehicle unless you are impressively oblivious.
I caught my dad's faux pas before he exited the vehicle. If I wasn't headed out the door for a road trip right now I would try it, but do the alarms go off when you exit, or after you start walking out of fob range? I see some situations where you want the engine running with you not in the vehicle. Checking the engine, etc. A lot of F150 owners (with or without pushbutton start) like the door keypad because in places like Texas, they can go into the quickie mart and leave the engine (and AC) on when it's 110 outside while keeping the doors locked and thieves out.
Hawkmoon is going to be out of luck. I except in the next five years you won't see a single vehicle with a mechanical key.
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Huh.
My Toyota Camry has keyless ignition. I'm not sure how one .... "forgets" to turn off the engine upon leaving.
Of course the Camry's 3.5 liter V6 is a bit .... noticeable ... while running.... =D
Turning an engine off has become difficult?
The Snowflakes are winning! :facepalm:
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I also still don't see how the risk is different with a key. Sure, my house keys are attached to the same key ring, but sometimes that isn't the case. Would they tie a shut off to the seat to detect someone in the seat?
I can see another round of lawsuits later when a car shuts off while the driving heading down a busy highway at speed.
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SWMBO's new Taurus is keyless. Actually kinda handy. Everyday pocket-to-keyhook regimen remains the same. Only substative difference between "real" key and keyless is no fumbling around trying to fish out a key in the rain, or in the dark of night. Fob in your pocket, it goes. No fob, it doesn't. Walk away from it with the fob in pocket while it's running and it jumps all over you via the horn.
Also, you can use remote start to startle the bejeebers out of your non-technosavvy mother. She thinks the car just randomly starts on its own. She hasn't figured out her Tahoe has the same feature. =D
Brad
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I caught my dad's faux pas before he exited the vehicle. If I wasn't headed out the door for a road trip right now I would try it, but do the alarms go off when you exit, or after you start walking out of fob range? I see some situations where you want the engine running with you not in the vehicle. Checking the engine, etc. A lot of F150 owners (with or without pushbutton start) like the door keypad because in places like Texas, they can go into the quickie mart and leave the engine (and AC) on when it's 110 outside while keeping the doors locked and thieves out.
Hawkmoon is going to be out of luck. I except in the next five years you won't see a single vehicle with a mechanical key.
I honestly don't remember because I coded all the alarms out of mine. They annoyed me when I left it running to cool down the interior, so I modded it to be quiet when I walked away. I wonder if I can get in on the suit. :D
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If they can have a seatbelt warning interlock built into the driver's seat, and they can have seat occupant interlocks for airbags, there is no reason why they can't easily have a driver's seat interlock for the ignition.
Personally, I don't ever want a vehicle that doesn't use a key.
No way in hell I want the damned thing shutting off or chirping every five seconds cause it thinks I'm not in the seat.
None of the current cars are keyless, but I've used keyless rides. Its a nifty feature.
I honestly don't know why any new cars bother to have a keyed ignition anymore. Even the keyed vehicles have coded keys and have for years. I don't think I've seen any new car in years that didn't. It seems like it'd actually be more of a hassle to still include the keyed ignition.
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All this crap they've put on cars, and AFAICT, still none of them have added the dead simple feature I know folks have been asking for for at least 25 years; let me roll up the windows with the key off. I can sort of see not rolling them down, though since the power locks still work, there's really not much security gained, but it's annoying that it's no longer possible to roll someone's windows up for them when it starts to rain, and if I notice a window down while getting out, the car has to be turned back on to roll it up.
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All this crap they've put on cars, and AFAICT, still none of them have added the dead simple feature I know folks have been asking for for at least 25 years; let me roll up the windows with the key off. I can sort of see not rolling them down, though since the power locks still work, there's really not much security gained, but it's annoying that it's no longer possible to roll someone's windows up for them when it starts to rain, and if I notice a window down while getting out, the car has to be turned back on to roll it up.
You need a new car. Lots of vehicles allow you to roll up the windows after you turn the car off. I rent a lot of cars for travel, and I'd say 65% or so of them let you do that.
Your messing around with other peoples cars is still stymied however, as most will disable the window up function if you open a door.
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Turning an engine off has become difficult?
No, the indicators that you need to have become less obvious. Remember, some cars will even shut off when stopped to save gas.
Im going to go with a different preventative measure. Monoxide detectors are like $40. Will protect against all sources of monoxide.
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No, the indicators that you need to have become less obvious. Remember, some cars will even shut off when stopped to save gas.
Im going to go with a different preventative measure. Monoxide detectors are like $40. Will protect against all sources of monoxide.
I'd forgotten some cars do that, but I still don't quite understand forgetting to turn off the car when you park it and enter your house. Get home....turn engine off ... go inside. Simple as pie.
But, hey, maybe that's just me.
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Remember, some cars will even shut off when stopped to save gas.
My BMW does that, but I have the option to turn-off that feature, and I have.
A very small percentage of the driving population can't hear or otherwise tell when their car is running, but they want everyone else to confrim to their standards. Welcome to the modern world.
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It would be interesting to know how many accidental deaths resulted from keyed vehicles left running. I've known two people who forgot to turn off their cars. Both had keys in them. I see most folks here immediately turn off their car when they park, but it's not a habit everybody has. Some people sit there and look at their phones, put loose stuff in a bag, or just have some reason to wait. They leave the engine running until they get out, and sometimes longer.
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...A lot of F150 owners (with or without pushbutton start) like the door keypad because in places like Texas, they can go into the quickie mart and leave the engine (and AC) on when it's 110 outside while keeping the doors locked and thieves out.
It is also nice when you're stopping at the Amazon Locker on the way home in Las Vegas. Also, my Altima does NOT go crazy with beeps, sirens, flashers, and/or grabs at my shirt collar to tell me I left the car running. It just sits there and waits for me to come back. There is a little "bloopy" noise when I first get out, though.
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I'll add this, now that I've thought about it. I was in a hurry one time, driving SWMBO's car. Pulled up, parked, and thought I had hit the button to shut off the engine. When I got out, the car honked at me, and it took me a minute to figure out why it had honked at me. Turns out that on her Ford, you have to have your foot on the brake for the button to be functional. I had my foot off the brake, so hitting the button did not shut down the engine. Add some hearing issues, I guess it could be a problem.
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All this crap they've put on cars, and AFAICT, still none of them have added the dead simple feature I know folks have been asking for for at least 25 years; let me roll up the windows with the key off. I can sort of see not rolling them down, though since the power locks still work, there's really not much security gained, but it's annoying that it's no longer possible to roll someone's windows up for them when it starts to rain, and if I notice a window down while getting out, the car has to be turned back on to roll it up.
You have to step up to the 1000 shitbox for that add on. Not available on the 500 shitbox.
I just want the *expletive deleted*ing wipers to complete the cycle and come to rest in the down position.
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Interesting. Not to long ago I read an article about keyless cars being left on and posted a thing from it here. http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=57425.0
Coincidence or [tinfoil]
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All this crap they've put on cars, and AFAICT, still none of them have added the dead simple feature I know folks have been asking for for at least 25 years; let me roll up the windows with the key off. I can sort of see not rolling them down, though since the power locks still work, there's really not much security gained, but it's annoying that it's no longer possible to roll someone's windows up for them when it starts to rain, and if I notice a window down while getting out, the car has to be turned back on to roll it up.
VWs and Audis can be coded to let you open and close the windows and sunroof from the key Fob. It's been possible since about the 99 model year.
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VWs and Audis can be coded to let you open and close the windows and sunroof from the key Fob. It's been possible since about the 99 model year.
BMW's as well. Key Fob or the little spot you touch to lock it.
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I'd forgotten some cars do that, but I still don't quite understand forgetting to turn off the car when you park it and enter your house. Get home....turn engine off ... go inside. Simple as pie.
But, hey, maybe that's just me.
In my dad's case he's a 90 year old guy who went from 25 years of driving barebones Rangers (and other simple cars/trucks before that) to a car that rivals the space shuttle for nifty doodads. It takes some learning, especially for someone older. Now that he's familiarized himself with it, he's fine. He's been driving for 70 years with a key. That has always been his "cue" for making sure the engine is shut off - removing the key from the ignition. Now he has had to learn something new.
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(Reuters) - Ten of the world’s biggest automakers were sued on Wednesday by U.S. consumers who claim they concealed the risks of carbon monoxide poisoning in more than 5 million vehicles equipped with keyless ignitions, leading to 13 deaths.
Seems to me the "concealed," if proven, is pretty important. Not that the alleged 13 deaths (if verified) aren't, but let's remember what happened with the Ford and Chevy gas tank problems. If people had known about those vulnerabilities*, some might not have purchased those vehicles as part of their decisioneering.
How many might have been saved, nobody can guess, nobody can know, but it's apparently (if the 13 number is true) something I'd like to know before deciding on a particular model with a particular feature. You can't casually dismiss a symptom like that ("13 deaths") as a mere matter of personal responsibilty.
Terry, 230RN
(*ETA: Don't bother pointing out how the tests by the TV station were rigged. That's "show biz" and immaterial to the matters at fact.)
REF (Sample):
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6700/top-automotive-engineering-failures-ford-pinto-fuel-tanks/
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Seems to me the "concealed," if proven, is pretty important. Not that the alleged 13 deaths (if verified) aren't, but let's remember what happened with the Ford and Chevy gas tank problems. If people had known about those vulnerabilities*, some might not have purchased those vehicles as part of their decisioneering.
How many might have been saved, nobody can guess, nobody can know, but it's apparently (if the 13 number is true) something I'd like to know before deciding on a particular model with a particular feature. You can't casually dismiss a symptom like that ("13 deaths") as a mere matter of personal responsibilty.
Terry, 230RN
(*ETA: Don't bother pointing out how the tests by the TV station were rigged. That's "show biz" and immaterial to the matters at fact.)
REF:
https://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/10/us/4.9-billion-jury-verdict-in-gm-fuel-tank-case.html
Don't really see how they concealed this. It's like saying they concealed the danger of driving and drinking, or concealed driving without a seatbelt, or concealed driving without using the windshield wipers while it rains, etc.
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^ "Don't really see how they concealed this."
"If proven." I didn't fall off the allegation truck just yesterday, doncha know.
PS. I changed the REF to a cleaner one:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6700/top-automotive-engineering-failures-ford-pinto-fuel-tanks/
Apparently Ford didn't use their shredders at the time, so there was "proof" left behind back then.
Worth a read all the way through, although at the end, the writer tries to scoop up the poop he dropped all through the article.
There also were problems with the Chevy pickup sidesaddle tanks, which is less known.
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It would be easy for someone that has used a key for 30 years and now have to learn a new habit, then under stress or in a huff revert back to old habits and leave the engine running. Especially if that someone still gets in and out with key in hand. Old habit key in hand = engine off.
If they used the passive system right the key never leaves purse or pocket. I’ve had women come into the shop and when I asked for the key they had to dump the contents of their purse to find it.
A fix: A simple timer for engine running with no weight on the driver’s seat. 10 minutes and shut down. Key fob in car or not. Same as remote start. It only runs a few minutes.
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The danger of running a vehicle in an enclosed space has been widely known for a long time. I am not sure what they had been hiding. Since most cars seem to have ways of letting the driver know the car is still running, the question is going to be what is known about that and what process the companies went through to add the extra programming. I would also be curious about those 13 deaths and the circumstances. I bet they all weren't very simple.
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Do the BMWs have a starter button that's removable? The one in my Challenger pops right out, then you just use the Fob like a key. One less new habit to have to learn..
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Do the BMWs have a starter button that's removable? The one in my Challenger pops right out, then you just use the Fob like a key. One less new habit to have to learn..
I don't think so. At least mine doesn't do that.
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If they consider "hazards of a vehicle idling in an enclosed space" as some kind of new thing, I weep for this nation.
Brad
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Okay, here's an update to my earlier posts. Over the weekend, we went to a friend's house out in the country to attend a graduation party. Wife left her purse in her car when we arrived, with the "key" inside. It honked at us to let us know it was in the car when we got out. Two honks. Later, she got her purse and took it in the house for some reason. When we were leaving, we realized she'd left the purse inside. I had my key fob in my pocket. She was driving (i'd had a few drinks). She pulled up next to the house, and I got out and went to get her purse. When I got out with the key in my pocket, the car still running, it did the same two honks as when we left the key in the car. Oh, and the car kept running the whole time. Bottom line is that the car will honk twice if it wants your attention, no matter the reason.
Why am I saying all of this? I know lots of people who will leave the "key" in the cupholder of the car when they get home and park in their garage. So, they must get used to the two honks when they close the car door. If the car makes the same noise when you leave a key in the car as it does when you leave it running, I can now understand how it could be an issue.
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Why am I saying all of this? I know lots of people who will leave the "key" in the cupholder of the car when they get home and park in their garage.
If someone leaves the key in the car at all, it's the person's decision or inattentive mistake, not the manufacturer's fault. Keyless systems aren't magic, they're just a convenient way to not have to insert a physical key into the ignition. The owner still has to exercise a modicum of reasonable care. Openly ignoring the very warning which tells you that you're being dumb is, well, dumb.
Leaving the fob in the car is also an open invitation to get your vehicle stolen. Even locking the door with Ford's keyless system is useless if the thief knows to tag the window and hit the interior unlock button first. Every year when it starts getting cold we have a rash of driveway burglaries from people letting their cars warm up in the driveway, keys dangling enticingly in the ignition. At least keyless systems with remote start let you warm the car with some reasonable amount of theft protection. In SWMBO's Taurus you have to step on the brake with the key inside the vehicle to unlock the system even though the car may have been sitting there running for several minutes.
Finally, it's a good way to have your insurance company deny a theft claim (my policy very specifically states that leaving the keys in the vehicle, no matter where the vehicle may be, is bad, m'kay...).
Brad
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If they consider "hazards of a vehicle idling in an enclosed space" as some kind of new thing, I weep for this nation.
Brad
Yet it still happens to normal human beings, and automatically putting the blame back on the consumer does not make sense. Remember that the next time you forget your house keys or to turn "something" off in the house when you leave.
Or leave a window open and it rains like hell while you're gone.
People forget. Fact.
I had a Datsun 310 GX with a well-balanced 4-cylinder engine which, when idling, was almost dead silent and vibrationless. It was like an electric motor somehow, and several times passengers had asked if the engine had died while we were stopped at a traffic light. Since I've always kept my car key on a small carabiner separate from my house keys, it happened at least twice that I got in the house and remembered I had left the key in the car with it running.
I ain't as perfect as some folks, I guess.
I'd still like to see the details on the "13 deaths," but reflexedly shifting blame back to the consumer for what might very possibly become a more frequent problem don't cut it nohow for me. It's clear this might soon be considered a design or manufacturing defect. We'll see if the outcome of that suit confirms my view or yours.
But if I had an extra ten bucks, I'd bet it on a shut your mouth/out of court settlement to avoid having the details get too public, and then a quiet redesign to eliminate the problem.
Terry, 230RN
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People forget. Fact.
Agreed, but putting the onus and liability on manufacturers to "protect people from themselves" steps into to the liberal mindset of "we know whats better for you than you do". That's a path I'd rather not take.
We've spent generations removing responsibility from the individual and placing it on the manufacturer. Now we're reaping the benefits; a society who not only expects to be protected from everything, but also subsidized when willful ignorance and decision making are patently counter-productive to the point of personal harm. I can't agree with that.
Brad
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Well, we'll see, won't we?
I guess it's a difference in philosophy. We, as humans, do not set "flag bits" to absolutely stop the program to put the groceries away and close the garage door if the fob is in one's pocket. :D
And I don't think it's fair to link your perceptions of the global dangers of "a society who which not only expects to be protected from everything" to this particular case, where emerging technology might develop new unforeseen dangers.
There's a word for that in sophomoric debating tactics.
Stick to the matter at hand, please. And I don't see "willful" in the problem unless it shows up in the details of those 13 deaths.
Terry
Insert your inevitable "last word" here. I'm done with this one. >:D :
(https://png.icons8.com/ios/1600/down.png)
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Yet it still happens to normal human beings, and automatically putting the blame back on the consumer does not make sense. Remember that the next time you forget your house keys or to turn "something" off in the house when you leave.
This is a very good point. I know that as little as I care about an "Internet connected kitchen", the next time I buy a stove, if it's at all reasonably priced, I want one that I can send an ""off" command to from my phone when I'm twenty miles away at the start of a road trip and think, "Did I turn the burner off?" I have more than once turned around to verify that.
Again, not that I want government control, but "forgetting" certainly seems like something ripe for a market solution. Whether it's a user programmable "the engine turns off in 10 minutes as a default" or what. I don't think most people take longer than that in the quicke mart, or run the engines longer than that to heat the interior in the Winter. But if it's a programmable feature offered the consumer, why not?
Now if this actually was a design flaw (like faulty airbags), I'd be good with gov involvement. But the car is doing what it's designed to do, so no gov, but I think market solutions/alternatives would be a good thing.
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There is a simple solution to all of those "I forgot" problems: A checklist.
Whether you are naturally forgetful or getting older or easily distracted, using a checklist can help prevent problems from arising. And I bet many of you already use a mental checklist everyday. "Keys, wallet, phone." And probably at night, too. "Locks, lights, alarms." If a mental cheklist isn't good enough, make a written one and tape it to the door you exit. Or place it in your car. Or the bathroom mirror.
We all forget things everyday. Maybe it is a minor issue, maybe we nearly burn the house down, but all of those "oh, crap!" moments help to build memory and triggers that will make it less likely that it happens again.
The more we remove responsibilty from the individual, the more dependent we make individuals.
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Yet it still happens to normal human beings, and automatically putting the blame back on the consumer does not make sense. Remember that the next time you forget your house keys or to turn "something" off in the house when you leave.
I'd still like to see the details on the "13 deaths," but reflexedly shifting blame back to the consumer for what might very possibly become a more frequent problem don't cut it nohow for me. It's clear this might soon be considered a design or manufacturing defect. We'll see if the outcome of that suit confirms my view or yours.
But it is entirely the consumers fault.
If I ND a pistol and injure myself or someone else, is that the manufacturers fault? After all, it still happens to normal human beings. Should they be required to put some sort of stupid device on them in order to make the chances of that happening even less likely, no.
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There is a simple solution to all of those "I forgot" problems: A checklist.
Whether you are naturally forgetful or getting older or easily distracted, using a checklist can help prevent problems from arising. And I bet many of you already use a mental checklist everyday. "Keys, wallet, phone." And probably at night, too. "Locks, lights, alarms." If a mental cheklist isn't good enough, make a written one and tape it to the door you exit. Or place it in your car. Or the bathroom mirror.
We all forget things everyday. Maybe it is a minor issue, maybe we nearly burn the house down, but all of those "oh, crap!" moments help to build memory and triggers that will make it less likely that it happens again.
The more we remove responsibilty from the individual, the more dependent we make individuals.
I've got a start-up and shut-down list for my boat. Reminders to shut the through-hull valves, close and dog the forward hatch and turn off the battery selector switch and A/C panel breakers. I got a bit of a reminder over Memorial Day weekend to use the damn checklist. I "got in a hurry" on Friday evening and left one of the through hull valves open. That particular valve also supplies the raw water wash down pump via a strainer. I found out the hard way that the plastic strainer had apparently not been drained well enough when I winterized the boat and had cracked from freezing over the winter. First thing I do when I open the boat is check the bilge level. Unless I've done something like drain the ice chest to the bilge it is usually dust bunny dry. after sailing Friday evening I came back Saturday morning and found about 2' of water in the bilge. If I'd done that and left it for a week I'd probably have sunk my boat at the dock.
Who do I get to sue?
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Who do I get to sue?
The boat manufacturer, the through hull valve maker, the bilge pump maker, the dock owner, the Corp of Engineers (or whoever owns the lake), for starters.