Do you have Lake City or other USGI surplus rifle brass in your reloading stash?

[Gewehr98]

Hang on to it, because it may be the last you'll ever get. 

Our fine folks at DRMO/DRMS have recently decreed that surplus cartridge brass must now be de-milled prior to being sold.

It's putting a lot of ammo places in a bit of a bind, because they depend on once-fired USGI brass to make their completed rounds.

There's a lengthy thread at ARFCOM discussing it, and the NRA-ILA is now involved.

Suffice it to say, I'm glad I have the 5K pieces of Lake City 7.62mm NATO and 5.56mm NATO I've scrounged over the years, if it all does go South.

More here:

http://georgia-arms.com/

[mtnbkr]

I thought the DOD was going to reconsider.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2009/03/obama-administration-hates-your-mother.html

[Gewehr98]

Keeping my fingers crossed that the NRA can swing a DoD waiver...

[K Frame]

What's the origin and point of this edict?

[PTK]

That's odd. Glad I have the few K of all the calibers I use....

[Gewehr98]

It came late last week as an email edict from Government Liquidators, evidently the new privatized venture responsible for sales of surplus scrap from DRMO/DRMS:



Now, it could be that either a tool in the Government Liquidator/Surplus Ventures chain overstepped his bounds, or it could be an administrative knee-jerk reaction to the previous mistake of selling F-14 Tomcat parts to folks who shouldn't have them.  The NRA-ILA has been contacted, and they're hoping to have a DoD waiver in place for .50 caliber and smaller cartridge brass before too long.  The operative word, of course, being hope.

I'm not a big fan of ARFCOM, but the thread there does spell out how once-fired military surplus brass makes its way to the reloader and folks like Black Hills, Georgia Arms, GIBrass, etc.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248&page=1

[Matthew Carberry]

I don't think this has been settled to be "true" as opposed to a distributor being over-cautious.

There are still open gov't auctions for brass that make no mention of a rule change.

The "DODSurplus" cited is not associated with the government, it is a private distributor and can be found mentioned on a fraud protection website.

There are multiple ongoing, open auctions for expended brass that explicitly state "mutilation not required" from the actual government auction service.

http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/endecaSearch?Ntt=brass&Ntk=P_Lot_Title&Ntx=mode+matchall&N=0&Nty=1&Ns=Lot%20Number|0&words=brass&cmd=keyword

#'s 7121 5100, #7121 7230, #7121 8360, #7121 8970, #7121 8971

Ironically it is the scrap stuff that is noted as having mutilation required.

From the THR.us post #17 where this was noted

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=407504

I am a newbie, I realize that won't carry a lot of weight for my first post, but I joined just so I could pass on the information that I've uncovered by investigating this "directive" and believing it to be a total hoax. My research:

This post really got my dander up and I started throwing things around my office and then I started doing my homework on tracking down the players in this and I kinda think this may be a hoax..... and it's got some people mightily stirred up, including me.

I checked on the "DOD Surplus" business and it has quite a few complaints filed against it for fraud. And I'm talking 5 and 6 figure fraud, from backing out on computer sales to selling tin as stainless steel. So I'm not sure that I'd believe a copy of an email posted somewhere on the internet that seems to be the sole source of this alert.

Checking on the DLA site, there is nothing posted there about this change, and I would think that somewhere it would be there, especially on the open auctions they have going on now for pallets of brass in the form that DODSales say isn't allowed to be sold anymore. Interesting, huh?

A Google Search on "Federal Directive to Destroy Fired Military" produces only a few returns and all point back to this email from DODSales as posted through the JPFO website. There's no supporting evidence from another source to say that this is a true fact.

Also checking on the MSSA(Montana Shooting Sports Association), there is nothing on their website of this information while there are lots of postings of other legislative events. There is a mention there of their "support" of the JPFO and working with them closely. Again, the JPFO is the only site to have this so called alert.

Several forums are discussing it, and the JPFO info is copy and pasted on all of them. And again, it's the only source of this "alert".

My conclusion for the time being is that it's a hoax, and there really isn't a change in the policies of selling once fired military brass.

And finally, there is a website that again, posts the information in the JPFO alert at: http://georgia-arms.com/ in which it's page is bright red, with the warning that doom is on the horizon and that "DOD Surplus LLC" will destroy said once fired military cases. And referring to the above, the DOD Surplus LLC is not, I repeat, NOT, associated with the DLA at all. On one of the complaints I read from www.ripoffreport.com the listing stated that the person had contacted the DLA in Washington, DC and the spokesman there said they were not affiliated with DOD Surplus in Scottsdale, AZ. If you look at the http://www.govliquidation.com/ site at their locations, there is no location in Scottsdale, and they are mainly in Pima, where one would expect them to be.


If you look at the info, the specifics are there to mislead one to think that DOD Sales LLC is connected somehow to the governemnt liquidation site and it's not. I really believe this is trying to pull our leg out of socket.....

[Gewehr98]

Carebear, I'm not trying to discredit you...

What I've learned as of this last weekend is that the ongoing auctions are still subject to mutilation once the auction is completed.  The aforementioned thread at ARFCOM even has email confirmation from the Government Liquidations LLC middleman stating that current auctions being advertised are indeed subject to the new ruling.

My guess is that last week's official word isn't out, although I'd love for it to be either a hoax or merely a case of a government tool overstepping his bounds in reaction to the F-14 Tomcat parts SNAFU. 

It appears NRA-ILA is now confirming the rules change, too.

Tom Gresham discussed it online with Georgia Arms during his latest Gun Talk webcast:

http://media.libsyn.com/media/guntalk/090315guntalkB.mp3

[Matthew Carberry]

Okay, so the auction winners will be required to implement post facto as it were.  That squares both accounts.

Thanks Gewehr.

You'd think they'd update their auctions. 

I'll get my Sens and Rep on it.  Though Young is probably sharpening the ferrule on his cane as we speak.

[MechAg94]

I heard it again on Gun Talk and he had the Georgia Arms guy on the show.  I was curious as well since the main source was Georgia Arms.  I just assumed it was a bit early and no one had followed this back to the source just yet.

[Gewehr98]

I'm considering a well-written missive to my representatives, too.

I'd really like to know what the NRA-ILA has in their bag of tricks, though.

I'm pretty much OK on brass stocks for my remaining days on this mortal coil.

I know a lot of folks, however, who make good use of milsurp rifle brass, and folks like Georgia Arms do one hell of a business supplying decent reloaded ammo at a better price than the commercial stuff.  Black Hills is no newcomer, and they also use surplus GI brass. 

Since we're already in an ammunition shortage situation, this is just a double whammy, IMHO.

[Gewehr98]

I note with interest that this is now being described as an anti-gun move by President Obama.   

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

DRMS-I 4160.14
Section 3 - Special Processing
Cartridge Cases (Fired Brass) - Expended
Definition/Description
Ammunition components consisting of cartridge and shell casings are subject to the
International Traffic In Arms Regulations set forth in subchapter M of 22 Code of Federal
Regulations (22 CFR 120.1. et.seq). Once expended, they are processed as fired brass scrap,
with precautions to avoid improper release of unexpended cases.
Policy References/Authority
DOD 4160.21-M and DOD 4160.21-M-1.
Unique Processing Information/How to Manage
Receiving: The ETID/DTID must include the appropriate DEMIL code or clear-text statement for each
receipt. The turn-in must contain certification that the residue is inert. Two signatures, a certifier and a
verifier are required. Opening sealed/banded containers invalidates the inert certification. DRMOs will
inspect what is readily visible (open boxes and drums) to verify the absence of contaminants, such as
live rounds. No other level of inspection is required.
Not authorized for receipt from DLA Depot Recycling Control Points (RCPs).
NOTE:
Warehousing/Storage: Storage will be accomplished in a properly assigned DEMIL Code “A” or “B”
scrap pile.
Reutilization/Transfers/Donations: GSA regional offices are authorized to approve transfer to SASPs,
for donation to state and local governments, surplus expended cartridge cases (under .50 caliber) for
reloading of the cartridges.
DEMIL: All expended small arms cartridge cases (50 caliber and under) are assigned DEMIL Code “E.”
Expended shotgun shell cases are assigned DEMIL Code “A.” Expended artillery cases are assigned
DEMIL Code “B.”
Sales: Sales in CONUS are authorized for casings 50 caliber and under (to satisfy local/reloading
market/demand only). The appropriate sales method will be determined based on location, commodity
condition, etc. as well as any current, unique sales/scrap processing initiatives that may be in place. End
Use Certificates are required for these sales.
Abandonment/Destruction: Used if specifically directed on a case-by-case basis.
Property Accounting: DEMIL performed code “9” is authorized for casings assigned DEMIL Code “E”
but no DEMIL is required. No additional unique property accounting required.
The provisions of this publication apply to all non-A-76 sites and Government Personnel at A-76 sites. This
publication may be mandatory or advisory to the Service Provider, as stipulated in the Performance Work
Statement.
Section 3 - Special Processing S3-79 February 2009
________________

need a translation

[Gewehr98]

Cartridge brass of .50 caliber and under intended for domestic sales normally didn't require demil (mutilation) under the Demil Code B.

However, it appears that the DLA has added Integrity Code 3 to that Code B requirement, at least as of late last week.

Expended brass was reqired to be mutilated if sold to overseas markets, that was always part of the deal.

Now, they're saying the demil has to happen even for domestic sales. 

That's the bad news, and it hurts big-time to reloaders of said brass, both commercial and private. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=407504&page=2  heres some more on it

[MechAg94]

Sounds like the issues is still a bit confused.  I guess we'll know more within a few days.

[PTK]

The more I hear of this, the more I'm REALLY glad I got the 400 or so 40mm hulls I did for my grenade launcher. Those are going to be SCARCE if this is all true.

[Waitone]

So things have been quiet on the gun control front.  The president has assured us <insert platitude of choice>.

Well try this on for size.  Seems gun control is bubble below the surface through the use of regulation (ok, I'm shocked).  I cut and paste and provide highlights

http://www.shootingwire.com/

FEATURE

No Longer Just Paranoia

For months, anyone who's proffered the position that the Obama Administration was anti-gun has been dismissed as being a variety of things, from sore loser to rampant paranoid. Nonetheless, since assuming office, members of the Obama administration have steadily- and stealthily- moved against firearms and ammunition.

Their only public blunder was Attorney General Holder's saying the "assault weapons ban" needed to be reinstated. Quickly, House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi - no friend of gun owners - went on record as opposing Holder's suggestion. She went as far as to parrot the words of pro-gun groups, saying the government should enforce the laws on the books today, rather than introducing new laws.

At the same time, the State Department notified Canadian authorities of plans to issue an export ban on "military caliber ammunition" to Canada. That proposed action would prevent the sales of .223, .308 and other military calibers.

When Canadian authorities protested - and notified several members of the American media, the U.S. State Department suddenly went silent. But they quietly reinstated other rules and charges firearms exports-retroactively.

While it seemed they had been headed off on one proposal, they had actually drawn attention away from other actions. If you're into incrementalism, that translates as a win.

Anything passed brings the ultimate goal that much closer.

Last Friday, the anglers and hunters were notified that the National Park Service planned to make all lands under their control totally lead-free by 2010. No lead in ammo or fishing tackle.

As we report in today's Outdoor Wire, that decision has kicked off howls of protests - and questions about the NPS trying to usurp states' rights by issuing their unilateral decision with no prior notification. It's definitely not going to be a decision without some serious discussions. That still doesn't mean the NPS will back off on their decision.

All these things are racing along on parallel tracks. Now, many observers - and not just those on the pro-gun side of the discussion - believe the country is hurtling toward a confrontation.

The catalyst might be any one of several flashpoint issues, but both groups seem to believe a reckoning is unavoidable.

For months, I've gotten reports of everything from re-tasking of military heavy assault units for domestic violence scenarios to calls for "committees of correspondence" designed to spread news the way word was spread by citizens of the then-British colonies.

In each instance, I've discounted the reports as internet hysteria that has produced breathless notices of "the real-deal on the new assault weapon ban"- or references to HR45 - a gun registration bill that is a prime example of "eyewash legislation". It's purpose has already been achieved.

Part of that discounting has been due to the fact that hot-blooded rhetoric seems to run along with firearms ownership.

To the chagrin of industry officials, there's never a shortage of people willing to go on camera, get red-faced and spout "from my cold dead hands" phrases.

Admittedly, those people concern me, but more for their reinforcement of a negative stereotype to people who have no opinion one way or the other on firearms.

Today, however, a report that has nothing to do with rhetoric, hyperbole or rumor.

A very disturbing report that points to a very real assault on ammunition supplies.

The Department of Defense has issued a directive that bans the sale of military brass to ammunition re-manufacturers.

Without that brass, a very large dent is put into civilian ammunition supplies.

New Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service (DRMS) requirements call for the "mutilation of shell casings". Mutilation, incidentally, is the destruction of the property "to the extent that prevents its reuse or reconstruction".

Government officials will determine what constitutes "sufficient mutilation" but it's safe to say that it will no longer be suitable for remanufacturing.

The first word of this latest decision came over the weekend when Georgia Arms' Larry Haynie released a letter notifying him of the new requirement.

For a company with an order in for 30,000 pounds of expended military brass in .223, .308 and .50 BMG, that was not a pleasant notification.

Georgia Arms was remanufacturing more than one million rounds of .223 ammunition monthly; selling that ammo on the civilian market to resellers and to government agencies all over the country.

Tomorrow, Georgia Arms will start sending cancellation notices for .223 ammunition to law enforcement agencies across the United States. Haynie says he may have to layoff half of his sixty-person workforce.

The message is simple. The implication is chilling.
A new welcome page posted on Georgia Arms' website (www.georgia-arms.com) says simply "Due to new government regulations concerning the purchase of surplus brass, we are removing sales of all 223 and all 308 until further notice."

From there, it directs visitors to the government website for contacting elected representatives.

All of us need to start contacting our elected representatives -and telling them, quite directly, that we're not going to put up with a move that not only curtails access to ammunition (nearly all .223 and .308 manufacturing capacity is tied up to satisfy the needs of the military) for civilians - but wastes taxpayers' money turning usable surplus into scrap metal.

Reducing the ammo brass to scrap reduces the value of the metal/surplus by nearly eighty percent. It also means that recast brass - in shippable form - may be shipped to China, one of the largest markets for U.S. metals on the world market.

If this is allowed to go unchallenged, anyone who owns a modern or traditional rifle in .223 or .308 calibers will see the impact- probably sooner than later.

"Anyone" in this context means everyone from recreational shooters to law enforcement trainers.

Pulling military brass out of the consumer supply chain means that all the manufacturing capacity being dedicated to meeting the military need will effectively become unavailable to civilians - forever.

Export rulings, lead bans, and brass mutilation orders from separate areas of the federal government look coincidental - on the surface. I'm not big on conspiracy theories - partially because I doubted the new administration would have gotten its collective act together so rapidly.

Seems I've been wrong on that one - and mistakenly using the word "hoard" when talking about the nearly-insatiable demand for ammunition that continues across the country. Today, laying up of ammunition might be better described as prudent preparation for possible problems.

States are beginning to serve notice to the federal government they will not enforce laws that violate individual rights. The federal government seems intent on creating a society with increasingly higher numbers of people dependent on the government for either sustenance or employment. Average citizens are beginning to grow tired of being asked to "tote the note" for others' irresponsibility.

These are, indeed, uncertain times.

Today, it's important that every reader take time to notify Congress that we - taxpayers - oppose this latest DOD move- and all the other not-so-subtle moves against gun owners.

You can contact your elected officials in Washington by going to this webpage http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml and following the links to your respective Senator or Congressman.

One key member of the United States Senate is Montana's Senator Max Baucus, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee. Baucus could make a call to the Pentagon and let them know their budgets might be reexamined if they don't reconsider this latest directive. At that point, the directive might labeled a "misunderstanding" and rescinded.

But it is important that we keep pressure on Congress.

If that means phone calls, e-mails, and letters, let's get that done. If that doesn't produce results, we need to look beyond symbolic gestures like sending tea bags or bringing hundreds of thousands of gun owners to Washington and state capitols to protest.

These are, indeed, uncertain times. But the time for uncertain actions may be passing.

We'll keep you posted. In the meantime, maintain situational awareness.

--Jim Shepherd 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=435840

[Matthew Carberry]

Check the post in Round Table.

There's three different agency moves I don't think "connected" per se tinfoil-wise but sure raise the old hackles individually.

Which is enough to complain to the old elected reps.

[Waitone]

So now I'm confused.  THR poster sees no problemo yet Georgia Arms sees a problemo.

Someone is wrong.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2247011&convertTo=USD

current auction  mutilation not required    once a rumor gets started its hard to kill  bet the folks in some offices are getting tired of the calls and thinking "its another nut"

[Gowen]

According to the interview on Gun Talk, the directive just came down last Tuesday.  The auction may have started before then.

[Waitone]

where on gun talk