Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: gunsmith on December 13, 2023, 06:58:25 PM
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https://www.foxnews.com/us/georgia-woman-fights-murder-case-killing-stranger-citizens-arrest
I only followed this a little, she seems like a nice gal to me but as far as I can tell - she really messed up big time.
She witnessed a crash/62 yr old guy with diabetes was confused ( personally I suspect on weed or something ) and left the scene.
She followed him and apparently tried to apprehend him.
My take is, she had no idea about tactics/strategy and gun fighting.
I watched the testimony on YouTube, she seems to have thought that pointing her gun at him would make him comply.
She got real close to him and he grabbed her gun and was shot during the struggle ...
As John Corriea says "now it's our gun, not your gun"
They really threw the book at her, I have no idea what the sentence is , but she was found guilty of everything .
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If that article is accurate she's not a nice gal, she's a Karen with an attitude and not enough intelligence to realize she's *expletive deleted*ing up.
He is drunk. I’m not," Payne told the dispatcher, per recordings of her two 911 calls played in court. "I’m sorry, but I’m here to tell you I’m not not going to follow him because he is going to cause an accident."
Payne would tell the court she was "under the impression, with having 911 on the phone, that [she] would be a messenger." She also told the court that she understood the dispatcher's instructions to disengage as "suggestions."
witnesses told a different story at 25-year-old Hannah Payne's murder trial, telling jurors that the woman cut off Kenneth Herring with her car, jumped out and punched him after the May 7, 2019 collision.
Then, witnesses said, she brandished her hip-holstered gun, threatened to shoot Herring twice and "immediately" did so, per FOX 5 Atlanta.
Payne confronted Herring after catching up with him at an intersection, telling him to return to the scene of the crash
You don't chase folks down, cut them off, and threaten them with a gun.
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She also told the court that she understood the dispatcher's instructions to disengage as "suggestions."
Setting aside the wisdom of her decision, I’m not sure she is wrong here. I don’t think dispatch is authorized to order people to do anything as law enforcement might be. Am I wrong about that?
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She forgot the first rule of seeing something happen that does not involve you and poses no threat to you, which is be a good witness.
bob
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Setting aside the wisdom of her decision, I’m not sure she is wrong here. I don’t think dispatch is authorized to order people to do anything as law enforcement might be. Am I wrong about that?
You are correct that I don't believe you are legally obligated to follow every instruction a dispatcher gives you.
But if you are going to claim "helping law enforcement" as justification for your actions, it's probably a good idea to listen to how they'd like to be helped.
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She's guilty of something. I'm just not sure (from limited info) that she's guilty of everything they charged her with.
Admittedly, I've been hypersensitive about that stuff since 06JAN. Our legal system has become so variable regarding who gets charged with what, that even BobR's advice is too involved for me anymore.
"Which is what happens when you call the feds" is becoming my mantra.
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Back in NY, my street-wise brother taught me... "It's sometimes good to say you were tying your shoes and didn't see anything."
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Legally, you can't really claim self defense after you start a confrontation and pull a gun. That appears to be what she did. In the struggle, the guy was shot and died. Even if the outcome isn't what she intended at the start, the guy was killed by her gun in a struggle she started.
I don't see a scenario where that won't get you charged with murder or something very close.
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If all she did was follow the guy until police caught up, I might agree that what she did was right in some way. Other cases involve that much. She took action (involving force with a deadly weapon) upon someone for the crime of leaving the scene of an accident and maybe some version of driving while intoxicated or with an active medical issue.
I gotta wonder if this was all her idea or if someone filled her head full of crazy ideas about being a sheepdog or something.
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There may be a bit of a comparison with the shooting of the young black kid that was "jogging" near uncompleted houses. That was in Georgia also.
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"With (fire)power comes responsibility."
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She's guilty of something. I'm just not sure (from limited info) that she's guilty of everything they charged her with.
Guilty of being stupid and bossy, mostly. She tried to play Karen Cop using a real gun and it turned out... poorly.
I'm with MechAg... once she stopped passive observation and took the proactive step of armed physical confrontation, she becomes the aggressor. Entirely my guess, but I'd bet a good hamburger she also has no idea how to properly handle a handgun, likely standing there with her finger on the trigger. That's why it "just went off" when the guy grabbed out his window for her.
Brad
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Legally, you can't really claim self defense after you start a confrontation and pull a gun.
I would say the dead guy started the confrontation by an illegal hit and run.
Everyone involved appears to be a moron, and that is putting it mildly.
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I would say the dead guy started the confrontation by an illegal hit and run.
He created a situation. She initiated the confrontation. Self-defense laws (most, anyway) are very clear on the delineation, usually designed around some form of the "...fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death" criteria. Had she simply followed and observed, or possibly even used her vehicle as a barricade and prevented him from driving away, that likely would have garnered a "thank you" and nothing more. Unfortunately, she took it upon herself to be the aggressor. That's a serious no-no.
Brad
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He created a situation. She initiated the confrontation. Self-defense laws (most, anyway) are very clear on the delineation, usually designed around some form of the "...fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death" criteria. Had she simply followed and observed, or possibly even used her vehicle as a barricade and prevented him from driving away, that likely would have garnered a "thank you" and nothing more. Unfortunately, she took it upon herself to be the aggressor. That's a serious no-no.
Brad
Is hit and run a felony? She was attempting (poorly) a citizens' arrest, which is legal for felonies but fraught with danger and generally a bad idea even if one knows what she's doing. IMHO she should be charged with manslaughter; not sure what level.
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Is hit and run a felony?
Depends on the jurisdiction, I suppose. That said, Hit and Run doesn't automatically create "fear of imminent serious bodily injury or death" so the law treats the accident and her actions as separate issues.
Brad
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While I agree she is in the wrong here, mostly, I wonder if the races were flipped if that would have changed anything in court?
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Is hit and run a felony? She was attempting (poorly) a citizens' arrest, which is legal for felonies but fraught with danger and generally a bad idea even if one knows what she's doing. IMHO she should be charged with manslaughter; not sure what level.
Citizen's arrest is not legal in GA. She had no legal right to stop him or detain him in any way. Certainly not to cut him off with her car and threaten him with a firearm.
That's why she went down for false imprisonment too.
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Citizen's arrest is not legal in GA. She had no legal right to stop him or detain him in any way. Certainly not to cut him off with her car and threaten him with a firearm.
That's why she went down for false imprisonment too.
Is that an outcome of the Ahmaud Arbery case?
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Is that an outcome of the Ahmaud Arbery case?
Yup.
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Is that an outcome of the Ahmaud Arbery case?
That is the case I was thinking about, but couldn't remember what to call it. Very similar events at least at a macro level. Suspect the person of committing a crime. Follow them. Confront them with a gun. Bad things happen. Dead guy. People go to jail.
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That is the case I was thinking about, but couldn't remember what to call it. Very similar events at least at a macro level. Suspect the person of committing a crime. Follow them. Confront them with a gun. Bad things happen. Dead guy. People go to jail.
It clicked for me when he said Georgia. I remembered "Aubrey" but looked up the spelling before I posted and got it wrong.
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A little LEXIS search (not a full search) and I can't find a jurisdiction where hit/skip is a felony. Most places, it appears to be a traffic citation level offense, which generally means that absent other circumstances, it's a non-arrestable offense.
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Citizen's arrest is not legal in GA.
I did not know it happened in GA... you are right.
Eliminating the citizen's arrest in GA was a moral obscenity, and not necessary at all even given the stupid Aubrey situation.
If someone breaks into your house and rapes your daughter, and runs... you can go to jail of you capture and hold him for the cops.
I guess the GA lawmakers were afraid of being called racist. ;/
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I did not know it happened in GA... you are right.
Eliminating the citizen's arrest in GA was a moral obscenity, and not necessary at all even given the stupid Aubrey situation.
If someone breaks into your house and rapes your daughter, and runs... you can go to jail of you capture and hold him for the cops.
I guess the GA lawmakers were afraid of being called racist. ;/
People often confuse pre-judice with post-judice.
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After hearing arguments and witness statements, the Clayton County judge sentenced Payne to serve life in prison with the possibility of parole for the charge of malice murder. She will also serve eight years consecutively for the count of false imprisonment and another five for possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony. Click here to re-watch the sentencing.
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/crime/trials/hannah-payne-sentenced-murder-kenneth-herring/85-8bc93d0e-c141-457c-bb75-76b97916f68e
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oooh, that stinks for her!
I meet so many people, many to the tenth power, tons and tons ( who own/carry guns ) - who can't seem to understand they need to actually study and know deadly force rules/laws for the jurisdiction where they live and visit. I suspect she thought having a ccw gave her police powers.
I think that a life sentence is too harsh - I would have given her ten or something.
Lots of people get shorter sentences for longer crimes.
I'm not buying the confused poor old man narrative, I think he was on something and he thought he would win the fight with the girl because he has won lots of fights with angry girls .
I hope whoever filled her head with nonsense about the who/what/where/why and hows of using a gun is questioning their advice.
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https://www.11alive.com/article/news/crime/trials/hannah-payne-sentenced-murder-kenneth-herring/85-8bc93d0e-c141-457c-bb75-76b97916f68e
I'm not seeing any way this fits the charge of Malice Murder.
https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2022/title-16/chapter-5/article-1/section-16-5-1/
No "malice aforethought," and no deliberate intention. And I certainly don't think the circumstances reflect "an abandoned and malignant heart." She did act foolishly, but this verdict is a miscarriage of justice. I'd love to read the judge's instructions to the jury.
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I'd love to read the judge's instructions to the jury.
I'd be interested in the jury demographics. "Better to be tried by twelve" doesn't hold the weight it once did.
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I did not know it happened in GA... you are right.
Eliminating the citizen's arrest in GA was a moral obscenity, and not necessary at all even given the stupid Aubrey situation.
If someone breaks into your house and rapes your daughter, and runs... you can go to jail of you capture and hold him for the cops.
I guess the GA lawmakers were afraid of being called racist. ;/
Why would you call the police if you caught your daughter’s rapist and deny yourself the opportunity to do God’s work?
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Why would you call the police if you caught your daughter’s rapist and deny yourself the opportunity to do God’s work?
Well, since GA eliminated citizen's arrest, I suppose you could be charged with murder if you killed the fleeing rapist.
It is astoundingly stupid.
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Why would you call the police if you caught your daughter’s rapist and deny yourself the opportunity to do God’s work?
Mark 12:17
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto G-d that which is G-d's.
Versions differ slightly.
Somewhat controversial, but often used to differentiate the just powers of the civil government from the just powers of religious authority.
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Your boomstick is NOT an all-purpose tool.