Author Topic: Comparatively, he's the sane one  (Read 4202 times)

Antibubba

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Comparatively, he's the sane one
« on: September 19, 2009, 05:24:10 AM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090919/ap_on_re_us/us_mental_institution_escape


Insane killer escapes on field trip to county fair

By NICHOLAS K. GERANIOS, Associated Press Writer
38 mins ago

SPOKANE, Wash. – A criminally insane killer from eastern Washington is on the run after escaping during a field trip to the county fair that his mental hospital organized.
Why such a dangerous person was out in public was a question many, including Washington Gov. Chris Gregoire, were asking as authorities searched for Phillip Arnold Paul.
Authorities at Eastern State Hospital, where Paul is a patient, are being criticized for allowing him to visit the fair despite his violent criminal past and a history of trying to escape.
"Why was he allowed to take such a trip?" the governor said Friday. "Why did they go to a location that was so heavily populated with families?"
Authorities believed Paul, 47, was headed for the Sunnyside, Wash., area where his parents and many siblings live.
Paul was committed after he was acquitted by reason of insanity in the 1987 slaying of an elderly woman, whose body he soaked in gasoline to throw off search dogs. Paul buried the woman's remains in her flower garden.
In 1991, Paul walked away during a day trip to a Washington lake and was later captured. He attacked a sheriff's deputy in the jail booking area, knocking him unconscious, and was convicted of first-degree escape and second-degree assault.
Spokane County sheriff's officials were told Paul had $50 when he escaped Thursday — enough money to buy a bus ticket, said sheriff's spokesman Dave Reagan.
Paul also had time, according to a union that said hospital administrators waited nearly two hours before calling law enforcement. The union said workers alerted their superiors minutes after discovering Paul's escape.
"They believe he was an extreme escape risk and the administration should never have allowed him on the field trip," a statement from the Washington Federation of State Employees said. "The workers have unsuccessfully fought to stop the outings for murderers, rapists and pedophiles committed to the hospital as criminally insane."
Spokane County Sheriff Ozzie Knezovich also insisted there was a two-hour delay before law enforcement were alerted, while Susan Dreyfus, secretary of the Department of Social and Health Services, said it was not clear how long it took.
Paul is a white male, 5-foot-8, 220 pounds, with brownish-gray hair, blue eyes, and a goatee. At the time of his escape, Paul was wearing a red windbreaker jacket, with a T-shirt and jeans.
Paul has been on and off a variety of medications over the years, and also been in and out of institutions, his brother Tom Paul said.
"He is in a bad mental state," his brother, Tom Paul, told The Associated Press. "Why would they load him on a bus and take him to a fair?"
Thirty-one patients from the mental hospital were on the trip Thursday with 11 staff members. Dreyfus said she did not know how many of those had violent criminal backgrounds.
Patients must be cleared by a treatment team before they can go on trips to stores, parks, and other sites, said Dr. Rob Henry, director of forensic services at Eastern State. They wear street clothing and staff members are required to keep each patient within eyesight at all times.
Henry said trips to the fair were an annual event. The last escape from the forensic unit occurred in 1992, he said.
It is possible a 15-day review, which will be in part conducted by the state Department of Corrections, will end such outings, Dreyfus said. She has ordered an investigation that includes both state mental hospitals.
The state Department of Social and Health Services, meanwhile, has ordered an immediate end to trips like the one taken Thursday to the fair and launched an investigation into the practice.
Paul had a normal childhood in Sunnyside, 200 miles southwest of Spokane, his brother said.
But he started acting strangely as a high school student, his brother said, and he was diagnosed with schizophrenia.
Paul was living in a halfway house in Spokane last year, but ended up back at the hospital in a very agitated state, Tom Paul said. Hospital officials said Paul hadn't exhibited violent behavior in years. They argued in the past that he should be released, but his petition for release was rejected in 2003.
The sheriff's office said Friday that Paul's medication should keep him stable for 14 days.


???  I'm speechless.
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

Gowen

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2009, 10:40:32 AM »
Why is it always somebody with multiple first names?
"That's my hat, I'm the leader!" Napoleon the Bloodhound


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Nightfall

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2009, 11:15:26 AM »
Yeah, I live about 5 miles away from the fair grounds in question. Lucky me.  ;/

Quote
Paul was committed after he was acquitted by reason of insanity in the 1987 slaying of an elderly woman, whose body he soaked in gasoline to throw off search dogs. Paul buried the woman's remains in her flower garden.
If you're sane enough to soak the body in gasoline and bury it in an attempt to get away with it, you're sane enough to die for your crime.
It is difficult if not impossible to reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into. - 230RN

BobR

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2009, 03:51:02 PM »
Quote
Dreyfus said she did not know how many of those had violent criminal backgrounds.

Well, I don't know if they are violent or not, but one source says they are all at least a half bubble off plumb.

Quote
employee tells KHQ in an exclusive off-camera interview that all 31 patients who went on the trip to the Spokane County Interstate Fair were criminally insane.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32919860/ns/local_news-spokane_wa/


Quote
Yeah, I live about 5 miles away from the fair grounds in question.

I live a lot closer than 5 miles away from where they keep these guys and gals under lock and key (usually).

bob





MrRezister

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2009, 04:08:59 PM »
I couldn't read anything past "field trip".
He never brought you an unbalanced budget, which is a perennial joke. He never voted himself a wage increase and, to this day, gives back part of his salary every year. He has always voted to preserve the Constitution, cut government spending, lower healthcare costs, end the war on drugs, secure our borders with immigration reform and protect our civil liberties.

Chrissy

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2009, 07:14:31 AM »
How dumb can they be??   :mad:

vaskidmark

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2009, 07:28:38 AM »
How dumb can they be??   :mad:

john hinkley has been let out unsupervised for visits to the local starbucks, weekends with his parents, and several other events.  apparently he has no further compulsion to impress jodie foster.

just because you are a homocidal maniac once or twice in the past does not mean you are going to go knocking off grannies at the state fair.

but i agree they should have considered putting lo-jack on the partygoers just in case this sort of event occurred.  they do it to child molesters who are currently on the streets.  shows location in real time as well as creating a map for later review.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Mannlicher

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2009, 12:11:34 PM »
.gov always seem to concentrate on the 'rights' of the criminal, to the detriment of society.

Waitone

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2009, 12:23:32 PM »
Another example of the cheapened value of human life.
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
- Charles Mackay, Scottish journalist, circa 1841

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it." - John Lennon

seeker_two

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2009, 03:47:07 PM »
Don't even ask me about the Texas State School system.....unless you like your blood to boil....  :rolleyes:
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

MillCreek

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2009, 04:41:14 PM »
I would just point out two things:

The subject of the story is a patient, not a prisoner. He was housed in a secure forensic ward at Eastern State in Medical Lake.  This is not a prison.

It is not at all uncommon for these patients even on secured wards to go out on field-trips with varying degrees of supervision.  This is not unique to Washington.  This is a clinical decision made by the staff, and it is ever so easy to second-guess if something happens.  I see that VA already mentioned John Hinckley, and these sort of cases happen all over the country every day. 

Not being an expert in forensic psychiatry, I will leave these sort of decisions to those people who actually work in the field.
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

MillCreek

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2009, 05:32:21 PM »
I just found out, from reading an article in the Spokane paper (The Spokesman Review), that Mr. Paul has periodically lived off the hospital campus several times in recent years.  He has lived in a group setting out in the community at the Carlyle Care Center in downtown Spokane, that has no security whatsoever. 

So he could have escaped numerous times over the years.  As is so often the case with severely-mentally ill patients in the community, they stop taking their meds, decompensate, and end up back in the inpatient setting.  This same scenario happened with Mr. Paul.  He would obtain conditional release to a community setting, do well for a while, and then stop taking his meds.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/sep/18/hospital-workers-supervisors-knew-within-minutes/
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Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Strings

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2009, 06:26:17 PM »
>How dumb can they be??<

You REALLY shouldn't ask that particular question...
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vaskidmark

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2009, 07:52:26 PM »
I would just point out two things:

The subject of the story is a patient, not a prisoner. He was housed in a secure forensic ward at Eastern State in Medical Lake.  This is not a prison.

It is not at all uncommon for these patients even on secured wards to go out on field-trips with varying degrees of supervision.  This is not unique to Washington.  This is a clinical decision made by the staff, and it is ever so easy to second-guess if something happens.  I see that VA already mentioned John Hinckley, and these sort of cases happen all over the country every day. 

Not being an expert in forensic psychiatry, I will leave these sort of decisions to those people who actually work in the field.

the problem with you position was that at the time he wandered away he had been involuntarily committed as a danger to others, after having been found not guilty by reason of insanity and not ameanable to treatment.  assignment to a forensic unit means that the individual has judicially been found not guilty of a criminal charge only because they met the state's definition of criminal insanity at the time the crime was commotted or they subsequently became unable to effectively participate in their defense against criminal charges.  forensic units are in fact run either solely by the state prison system or jointly with the prison system poviding the security and the mental health system providing treatment to those who it has been determined could after some treatment stand trial for their crimes.

while not under the same penalties as criminal prisoners, his freedom was just as effectively limited by judicial action, and for all intents and purposes his civil liberties had been restricted to the same extent as are those criminally sentenced.  i could find no information suggesting that he was no longer under the restrictions placed on those not guilty by reason of insanity.  that does not mean he assuredly was not released from that legal disability, just that a brief search did not turn anything up.

as for john hinkley, he was not assigned to a forensic unit when he was granted his passes out of st. elizabeth's.  he had been released from the forensic unit and assigned to the general fruitcake ward as being a danger to others.  after further assessment he remained civilly committed with a designation of not being a danger to others by virtue of the inacessability - by virtue of no longer being in office and later by death - of ronald reagan.  he remained criminally insane because he still claimed an uncontrollable obsession to wanting to kill r.r. in order to impress ms. foster, even though he apparently understoof r.r. was no longer in office/alive.  the problem is that the treasury dept - secret service - is not willing to take any chances so they continue to insist he remain committed.

the final difference between mr. hinkley and mr. paul is that mr. hinkley has always returned on time from his permitted outings.  walking away is bad enough, but not returning by curfew makes it just that more likely that the powers that be will slap the 'dangerous to women, horses and small dogs' tag on one.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

MillCreek

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2009, 08:43:56 PM »
This just in: Mr. Paul was recaptured without incident.

PS: according to the local news, he was captured in Goldendale, Washington.  He was apparently on his way back to his parent's home in Sunnyside, about 60 miles away from Goldendale.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2009, 08:58:28 PM by MillCreek »
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Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

MillCreek

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2009, 08:57:21 PM »
VA, thank you for your comments.  It is always interesting to hear your thoughts based upon your knowledge and experience in the area. 

Until just now, I had not realized that Mr. Hinckley was still in St. Elizabeth's.  According to Wikipedia, he is, and he is still allowed out to visit his mother for several days at a time.  I had actually thought he was out for good.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2009, 09:13:39 PM »
but i agree they should have considered putting lo-jack on the partygoers just in case this sort of event occurred.  they do it to child molesters who are currently on the streets.  shows location in real time as well as creating a map for later review.

I suppose the technology has improved in 18 years, but wasn't that guy in California actually wearing an ankle bracelet at the very moment he kidnapped the Duggard girl? It really worked SWELL in that case. The place where he grabbed her was only 150 MILES from where he was supposed to be.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2009, 02:55:10 AM »
I suppose the technology has improved in 18 years, but wasn't that guy in California actually wearing an ankle bracelet at the very moment he kidnapped the Duggard girl? It really worked SWELL in that case. The place where he grabbed her was only 150 MILES from where he was supposed to be.

his ankle bracelet had alerted the machinery that he had left proximity to the receiver unit.  mpbody attended the alert device for some time, thus allowing him a head start.  his device had no gps, so was useless in trying to track him.

mr. paul's reapprehension may actually serve in his favor, given that it suggests he was trying to get back home to mom.  the folks in charge of the buttefly nets could easily posit that he was seeking a safe and stable environment, having recognized the state fair as one not in his best interests.  --i'd like to stretch that and suggest, without any review of his file, that he also saw the forensic unit in the same light.--

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2009, 06:39:22 AM »
Quote
who it has been determined could after some treatment stand trial for their crimes.

Can you explain how this works? Wouldn't the fact they've not been legally accountable at the time of the crime serve as a defense even if they are cured later?

[I do not of course hold to the belief that 'none of these people can be cured'.]
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Strings

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2009, 06:44:45 AM »
>Can you explain how this works? Wouldn't the fact they've not been legally accountable at the time of the crime serve as a defense even if they are cured later?<

Because then you would have WAY too many people using an insanity defense.

Plead insanity. Game the system to get a shrink to agree. Then be "cured" later...
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

vaskidmark

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2009, 08:11:23 AM »
>Can you explain how this works? Wouldn't the fact they've not been legally accountable at the time of the crime serve as a defense even if they are cured later?<

Because then you would have WAY too many people using an insanity defense.

Plead insanity. Game the system to get a shrink to agree. Then be "cured" later...

a person may be legally insane at the time they commit what otherwise would have been a crime - thus not guilty by reason of insanity.  the historic definition was the mc naughton 'rule' - inability to tell right from wrong.  later additions included stuff like irresistable impulses and 'enragement' which iirc includes both previous elements simultaneously.  the last addition was inability to participate in your own defense - seems scotus finallygot around to saying lawyers do not always have your best interesrt at heart or something like that.  i called it a restatement of the rule of public defenders.

a person who did not, at the time of the offense, understand that their conduct violated the rules of the game could not be punished because they would not understand why they were being punished.  --see later scotus ruling on executing the retarded for corollaries--  a bit later some politician's advisor came up with the bright idea that if you treated the criminally insane to the point that they understood their behavior at the time of the offense was wrong the state could now execute them.  problem was that did not deal wih impulses and a few other matters.

next step was a nightmare called guilty but not criminally responsible, or variations on that phrasing.  i seem to want to say that michigan was the first to come up with it, but the urge is nor irresistable. :angel:  anyhoo, the deal is you got sentenced to prison --no capital sentences permitted-- but were housed in a nut ward until such time as the docs said you now understood the wrongness of your deed and could be transferred to the grey-bar hotel to comprehend why you were being punished.  if treatment never got you 'fixed' you stayed on the whacky-world side because you were a danger to others because you could not understand how your conduct might not be right.  as a civil committee it was easier to extend the bounds of your confinement to see if the state could house you in a place less expensive - say a group home or a supervised apartment.

the latest and greatest of this scheme/scam is the civil committment of sex offenders after their prison sentences are completed.  because their problem has been declared by the apa to be an irresistable urge they fit the definition of criminal insanity even though that tactic did not work in their favor at trial. =(  they are declared dangerous to others and sent to special forensic units that hold only sex offenders, and are usually operated jointly by mental health and the prison system.  they stay there until they no longer have an irresistable impulse, or a palpable pulse, whichever comes first.

--sidebar strange --as in really strange, deranged strange-- story.  for many sex offenders, since masturbation is not viable for their sick and twisted dreams, the only sexual stimulation they get is when the techs check them out with the plythismograph machine, which has become a standard technique although everybody knows chester gets off on it.--    --stranger sidebar - scotus frowns on using aversion as part of the plythismograph treatment.  used to be if you started to get wood you got a snotlocker full of citronella, lemon juice, ammonia vapors, or even pepperspray.  now all you get is a buzzer rigged to show and sound the strength of your reaction to stimulii.--

aint psychiatry grand.. you'd have to be nuts to want to be treated by one of them.

now, for bonus points - give excuses why none of those issues addressed above violate any section of the constitution or its amendments.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

MillCreek

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Re: Comparatively, he's the sane one
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2009, 08:31:33 AM »
Washington was one of the first states that embraced the concept of civil committment of sex offenders after serving their criminal sentence.  A friend of mine worked for many years for our Department of Corrections as a CO, then transferred to our Department of Social and Health Services which runs the sexual offender committment center on McNeil Island.  Just within the last year, he went back to the DOC and is now a shift commander for the medium-security prison on McNeil Island.  He says that he now works with a better class of person. 

The sex offender center recently got some media attention after the Feds indicted seven residents there for possession of child pornography.  They found several DVDs full of images of children.  All seven residents indicted have had offenses related to children.  They think that the DVDs were smuggled in via the mail or staff.  Since they are not prisoners, the mail does not undergo rigorous screening.
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Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.