Author Topic: Mechanics and techs: Help needed  (Read 2843 times)

Antibubba

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Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« on: October 18, 2010, 11:08:57 PM »
I'm trying to find a way to figure the pressure inside an IC cylinder in PSI, bars, or the like.  Is there any formula that translates compression ratios to PSI? 
If life gives you melons, you may be dyslexic.

Jim147

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2010, 11:13:51 PM »
Someone might have something else but you have a bunch of variables that come into play. Like cam duration, valve overlap and ring seal that would make a definitive formula about impossible.

I might be able to guesstamate if you list some specs.

jim
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2010, 11:37:56 PM »
Someone might have something else but you have a bunch of variables that come into play. Like cam duration, valve overlap and ring seal that would make a definitive formula about impossible.

^^^ This.

Can't be done, except in the most rudimentary and approximate way.
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230RN

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2010, 11:41:46 PM »
Compression ratio X 14.7 would be the theoretical maximum in psig (gauge psi).

Gage (or gauge) pressure is the pressure measured from the ambient air pressure.  At sea level, gage pressure is zero.

Absolute psi (psia) is how high the pressure is from an absolute vacuum. 

To obtain gauge pressure from absolute pressure, simply subtract 14.7.

To obtain absolute pressure from gauge pressure add 14.7.

14.7 psi is one atmosphere or one bar (one barometer.)

A compression ratio of 8:1 gives 117.6 psi gauge, or 117.6 / 14.7 psi gauge = 8 bar gauge pressure.

A compression ratio of 8:1 gives 117.6 + 14.7 = 132.3 psi absolute = 9 bar absolute pressure.

This all neglects the heating that occurs with the compression of the gas (which raises the pressure), less the loss of heat from the compressed gas to the walls of the cylinder.

This is all at sea level, where the atmospheric pressure is the aforesaid 14.7 psi absolute.

One bar equals 14.7 psia, 760 mm of mercury, and 29.92 inches of mercury.

One millimeter of mercury (mmHg) is one Torr, named for Angelista Torricelli, an Italian scientist.

One millibar (one-thousandth of a bar) is 760 mmHg / 1000 = 0.76 mm of mercury, or 0.0147 psi

Forget Pascals.  I hate 'em, so you can't use 'em.  Nyah.

It is not a simple problem, considering that the time of compression  involved allows more (or less) heat to be lost to the cylinder walls*, and that you might not live at sea level**, along with some of the other things mentioned above.  The time of compression is dependent on RPM.  (This also affects the leakage mentioned above, unless you're using a rollsock for sealing, which complicates the issue even further.)

Terry, 230RN

* This is a rather complex problem in thermodynamics, where many of the variables would have to be determined empirically anyhow.

**  For example, I live more than a mile above sea level, where the ambient pressure is only about 12.2 psia  --and the calculations would require that number, instead of 14.7.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 12:46:41 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Jim147

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2010, 12:35:56 AM »
Do you hate Pascals to bars 1 x 10 -5

Or to atmospheres 9.869 x 10 -6?

You live at an altitude that a 14:1 motor loses a lot in the quarter mile and the track surface temps run a little high. Denver uses a water cooled starting line.

jim

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Monkeyleg

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2010, 12:58:54 AM »
I also don't think such a formula would be possible. When I worked on various engines and checked their compression with a gauge, each motor had its own optimum compression.

230RN

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2010, 01:02:20 AM »
I just hate Pascals.

Same reason I hate the color yellow and turnips.

In other words, I don't know why.

I like Torr and blue... and pancakes.  Yay!

Quote
You live at an altitude that a 14:1 motor loses a lot in the quarter mile and the track surface temps run a little high. Denver uses a water cooled starting line.

Tell me about it.  I have trouble with getting out of the 1/16 mile driveway with my Subi.  Especially in summer. 

(Had an Audi CS5000 (turbocharged) and I got it in summertime.  Come winter, man, would that bastard take off!)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 01:13:22 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Jim147

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2010, 01:09:16 AM »
I just hate Pascals.

Same reason I hate the color yellow and turnips.

In other words, I don't know why.

I like Torr and blue... and pancakes.  Yay!

What about bacon?

Be careful how you answer this.  =D

jim
Sometimes we carry more weight then we owe.
And sometimes goes on and on and on.

BAH-WEEP-GRAAAGHNAH WHEEP NI-NI BONG

230RN

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2010, 02:15:40 AM »
Ohboyaconbaconbaconbaconbaconbaconohboy...

Rogerbaconrogerbaconrogerbacon...   hmmmm, I don't think there are any units named after him.  Maybe a ton of TNT ought to be...  hmmm... yesirree, the Hiroshima "Little Boy" bomb yielded 12-15 kiloBacons.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 02:27:18 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

bedlamite

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2010, 07:53:41 AM »
Compression ratio X 14.7 would be the theoretical maximum in psig (gauge psi).

Under the right circumstances with the right cam timing, rpm, a tuned intake and exhaust, you can get higher cylinder pressure than that. It's already been said, but there's too many variables.

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drewtam

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2010, 08:32:33 AM »
Compression ratio X 14.7 would be the theoretical maximum in psig (gauge psi).

No.  :O

Antibubba,

Compression ratio is not a pressure measurement. Its a volume ratio measurement. So there is no direct "unit conversion". But you can use thermodynamic equations to calculate the pressures and temps.

Look up "adiabatic process" in wikipedia. This is going to get you a very close first approximation.

The problem with real engines, is that throttles and valves usually reduce the initial pressure of the cylinder at the beginning of compression stroke. But with trick valve timing, certain engine speeds can float above atmospheric pressure. Or the intake closing angle can be very late, which makes a Miller cycle. This reduces the initial volume and lowers actual  compression ratio vs the nominal ratio.

But the piston rings don't make a perfect seal, so some compression is leaked by (called blow-by). Blow-by becomes very significant when doing a cylinder compression test. In a comp test, the engine is not running, so the rings and pistons are not sealing well, and they have a lot of time to leak by. In such cases, the pressures measured are fairly low. Comp tests are really looking at consistency across multiple cylinders or looking at the value compared to spec.

Plus, engines are not 100% efficient compression machines; so they add in a little extra heat and pressure from their inefficiency. Plus, they are not purely adiabatic (but pretty close). It has to be a fairly slow moving piston for heat transfer from piston, head and cylinder to matter that much on a single compression stroke.

But as I said, the adiabatic equations are going to get you very close as a first pass...

Pr = pressure ratio = P2/P1
P2 is final absolute pressure
P1 is initial absolute pressure (atmospheric in our case, 100kPa)

Cr = compression ratio = V1/V2
V1 is initial volume (displacement in our case)
V2 is final volume

Pr = Cr ^ gamma

gamma = ratio of specific heat = Cp/Cv (~1.396)

P2 = P1 * (V1/V2)^1.396
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230RN

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2010, 10:48:05 AM »
Original Post from Antibubba:

Quote
I'm trying to find a way to figure the pressure inside an IC cylinder in PSI, bars, or the like.  Is there any formula that translates compression ratios to PSI?

Drewtam:

Quote
Quote from: 230RN on October 18, 2010, 09:41:46 PM
Compression ratio X 14.7 would be the theoretical maximum in psig (gauge psi).


No

Me:

Yes.

This short little question addressed or implied two issues as I read it:

(1)  What the pressure would be in an internal combustion (IC) cylinder with a given compression ratio.  We know compression ratio is a dimensionless number, and you and I  and  other posters know that there are many factors involved such as adiabatic heating of the gas, "ramming" of the charge due to tuned intakes, etc.  But the unvarnished answer is as I stated it in one sentence at the outset, with the qualification "theoretical."  Other factors (altitude, whatnot) were touched upon in  mine and others' posts.  My conclusion was, with these other factors (including adiabatic heating) considered, it was not a simple problem... as others also stated.

(2)  How one would handle the resulting pressure in bars, psi, and the like.  I gave several relationships between the various methods of measuring pressure and noted the difference between absoloute and gauge pressures to avoid confusion between the two.

I also footnoted that: "* This is a rather complex problem in thermodynamics, where many of the variables would have to be determined empirically anyhow."  I will stand on the statement that many of the thermodynamic variables would have to be determined empirically (experimentally) in this case of an IC cylinder.  Many of these would depend on RPM to account for the time involved in transferring heat from the gas to the cylinder walls and the piston itself during and after the compression cycle.

My answer was not designed to offer a short course in thermodynamics, but to point out where the "heat of compression" might go, and how fast it might go there.

In short, I repeat:  "yes."

(I did not want to touch upon the combined gas laws (Charles' and Boyles' Laws), also to avoid confusion.)

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 11:34:32 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

280plus

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2010, 01:57:09 PM »
I'm thinking gauge.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2010, 04:10:14 PM »
I'm trying to find a way to figure the pressure inside an IC cylinder in PSI, bars, or the like.  Is there any formula that translates compression ratios to PSI? 

What is the intended end result?  Are you trying to figure pressure as it relates to static or dynamic compression?

Brad
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Antibubba

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2010, 09:26:56 AM »
No real end--just curious if a relatively simple method was available.  Thanks!
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2010, 10:06:12 AM »
Shouldn't you be able to use bore and stroke as a hypothetical pressure? If you have bore diameter and the stroke, you can figure the volume at BDC (bottom dead center), which would be your uncompressed air, and then at TDC (top dead center) which would be your compressed air.

Seems like there would be a problem in that somewhere, though.

230RN

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2010, 10:49:47 AM »
Monkeyleg, the problem there is that you don't know the final volume above the piston in your calculation, thus you don't have a divisor in order to get a ratio.  If one assumes that the volume remaining above the piston is cylindrical and "flat" on top, you could do it, but you'd need to know the distance from the top of the piston to the top of the cylinder at the end of the stroke to calculate that final remaining volume.

The volume of a cylinder is pi x the radius squared, times the height.  In your question, the radius is half the bore, and the height is the stroke.  That's the volume "swept" by the piston.  Then you calculate the volume remaining above the piston at TDC (if you can), add that to the swept volume of the piston, and divide that total  by the volume remaining above the piston at TDC, to obtain a compression ratio.

Unfortunately, the top of the cylinder is not usually flat, but complex in shape, like in the "hemi" combustion engines.  You could come pretty close in the old "flathead" engines, but not with present-day engines.  That's why I added "if you can" in the above.  To complicate this further, the tops of the pistons can have complex shapes to swirl the intake charge --or whatever.

Fortunately, the engine manufacturers have done all this for you, and publish this compression ratio.

You could do it by "brute force" by filling the cylinder with oil and measuring the two volumes of oil, though.  Yuch.



280plus:

Quote
I'm thinking gauge.

I usually don't.  I like real zero points in pressures and temperatures, so one can have a cardinal number scale from which to work.

For example, going from 10°C to 20°C does not "double" the temperature.  It only increases the temperature by "let's call it" 3.5 % in real terms.  This, since the real zero point in temperature is 273.15°C below the so-called"zero" of the centigrade scale. ("Absolute Zero.")  You are really only going from 283.15 to 293.15 in this example.

That's why the Kelvin scale of temperature*, with a real zero,  is so valuable in thermodynamics.  You can't do calculations in  "Centigrade.*" 

And going from "zero" gauge pressure to 14.7 psig (gauge)  is not an "infinite" increase in pressure (14.7 divided by zero), but only a doubling of the real, or absolute pressure.   I do not live, here at 6000 feet above sea level (Colorado), in a negative pressure of 2.5 psi.  I live in air whose pressure is 12.2 psi.

This sometimes leads to problems when you're taking compression readings on engine cylinders.  A cylinder which reads low may not actually be bad.

Let's face it.  If you took readings of cylinder compression in outer space, they'd all be "bad."

(A hint: "gauge" is spelled alphabetically.  That is, "a" comes before "u," not the other way around.  "Gage," however, is perfectly acceptable, if unusual.)

Terry, 230RN
---------
*
I point out, before others do, that there is no such thing as "degrees Kelvin."  "Kelvin" is a unit all by itself.  Thus, the freezing point of water is not 273.15 "degrees Kelvin" but simply 273.15 Kelvin, or K.

Thus, water freezes at 273.15K.


« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 11:56:21 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2010, 12:28:35 PM »
You could do it by "brute force" by filling the cylinder with oil and measuring the two volumes of oil, though.  Yuch.


Actually you use green-tinted isopropyl alcohol and it's a simple procedure that's done all the time in engine building.

The problem comes in not from static CR but from dynamic CR.  Vagaries of certain cam profiles cause bleed-off of cylinder pressure.  You might have tremendous static CR but very low dynamic compression (i.e. actual cylinder pressure).  An engine with an 8.5:1 static CR and a conservative cam might generate 130-140 psi cranking cylinder pressure while an engine with an 11.0:1 static CR but a wild cam might only hit 120.

As for the piston dome altering volume calculations, most piston makers publish the dome volumes of their pistons so engine builders can take that into consideration.

Brad
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230RN

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2010, 03:44:47 PM »
^
Quote
Actually you use green-tinted isopropyl alcohol and it's a simple procedure that's done all the time in engine building.

Huh!  Good to know, and thanks!  But why tint the alcohol?  (I'm sure the answer is obvious and I'll do a :facepalm:, but please tell this old coot who hasn't had lunch yet.)

Terry, 230RN
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

280plus

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2010, 04:01:08 PM »
So you can see it.  =D
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2010, 05:40:43 PM »
So you can see it.  =D

Yep.  Plus, it's available in that color at the store.  Smells good, too, what with the menthol and stuff.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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280plus

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2010, 05:48:36 PM »
Yep.  Plus, it's available in that color at the store.  Smells good, too, what with the menthol and stuff.

Brad
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230RN

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2010, 04:55:42 AM »
Holy cow, you can't see alcohol?

I prefer the "it comes from the store that way" explanation.  =D

And here's my dope slap:   :facepalm:

Ouch.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

280plus

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2010, 08:09:24 AM »
Quote
I prefer the "it comes from the store that way" explanation
:facepalm: Missed that one.  =|

 :lol:
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Mechanics and techs: Help needed
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2010, 12:30:09 PM »
Holy cow, you can't see alcohol?

I prefer the "it comes from the store that way" explanation.  =D

And here's my dope slap:   :facepalm:

Ouch.

Easier to see a green tinted liquid than a clear one when eyeballing the measuring gradations.  Shop and garage lighting often ain't the best...

Brad
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"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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