Gun owners are their own worst enemies

[Hawkmoon]

Trump wants to give us national carry reciprocity (just like a driver's license), and people over on The Firing Line are against it!

See posts 32, 34 and 35.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6378371#post6378371

No wonder the anti-gun people have gotten us into the state we're in. The allegedly pro-gun faction can't even recognize a good thing when it's standing right in front of them. I have to wonder where they get their "information." I've read Trump's position papers on this. IIRC, he specifically uses the term "full faith and credit," and he uses the "just like a driver's license" comparison. Where do these people come up with this crap about federal standards and "national carry permit"? Has Trump ever mentioned either of those things?

[Devonai]

I can see how the state's rights people might get their dander up at first blush, but if things work out the way you indicate, I don't see a problem.

It would be amusing to hear the rending of garments if full faith and credit applied nationwide, then more states went permitless. 

[zahc]

It reminds me of Californians who are against cannabis legalization, because they don't like the terms of the legalization. I see their point, but I think the slippery slope can work in our favor with concealed carry. The story of concealed carry is basically a case study in incremental political progress.

[BobR]

I really don't want National Carry Reciprocity. I would welcome National Concealed Carry Recognition with open arms.

bob

[MechAg94]

Is that sort of like people who won't accept permitted open carry because they shouldn't need a permit?  One step at a time.

The argument I heard over the weekend that I thought was a valid was concern about letting the federal govt stick their nose in the tent.  As long as it is just full faith and credit, it should be okay.  If it turns into federal approval of permit requirements or a federal permit, I don't think I would like that.  Even bad language in a law that just does full faith and credit could be screwed with by a bad judge.

[Perd Hapley]

Hawkmoon, were you unaware that a lot of gun rights supporters don't want the feds messing with our concealed carry permits? This has been an ongoing debate.

I thought this was going to be about Zimmerman being all drunk and racist (allegedly) at that bar. 

[Hawkmoon]

I really don't want National Carry Reciprocity. I would welcome National Concealed Carry Recognition with open arms.

I agree, in principle. I am firmly of the opinion that any carry permit or license requirement is an unconstitutional infringement on the "guaranteed" right to keep and bear arms. But, we are where we are, and the longest journey starts with a single step. I would be happier to need only my own, home state permit rather than the four I now have and the two or three more I need to get if I'm to travel risk-free to some of the places I'd like to visit.

Whether we go national reciprocity or full constitutional carry, there need to be some other things cleaned up:

• The gun-free school zone law would have to be revised to exempt anyone with a license or permit from any state, not just the state in which the school zone is located
• The law prohibiting carry in "federal facilities" should be rescinded
• the law prohibiting carry in post offices should be rescinded, or at least revised to cover only inside the building, not the parking lot
• Ditto the post office for VA hospitals. If I can't carry inside the building, I should at least be allowed to leave my gun in the car on the grounds
• Carry in national parks, national monuments, national forests, and BLM lands should be legal for anyone who is not a prohibited person

[Hawkmoon]

Hawkmoon, were you unaware that a lot of gun rights supporters don't want the feds messing with our concealed carry permits? This has been an ongoing debate.

I am certainly aware that this has been an ongoing debate, and the naysayers who are going to screw this up for the rest of us piss me off greatly. If we can't get a decent full reciprocity law under President Trump with a Republican House and a Republican Senate, we don't deserve to even have the Second Amendment.

[K Frame]

Trump wants to give us national carry reciprocity (just like a driver's license), and people over on The Firing Line are against it!

See posts 32, 34 and 35.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6378371#post6378371

No wonder the anti-gun people have gotten us into the state we're in. The allegedly pro-gun faction can't even recognize a good thing when it's standing right in front of them. I have to wonder where they get their "information." I've read Trump's position papers on this. IIRC, he specifically uses the term "full faith and credit," and he uses the "just like a driver's license" comparison. Where do these people come up with this crap about federal standards and "national carry permit"? Has Trump ever mentioned either of those things?

Actually, some very logical issues/concerns being raised by those three posters. Sure, we know what Trump says he wants to do...

But he's only the president-elect. And even after he gets to be president, he can't go it alone. Well, he can try, but I don't think it would survive legal challenges.

The people who would have to implement this thing come from 50 independent states with HUGELY varying agendas.

You REALLY think Mr. Trump is going to wave his magic hair piece and the reps/Sens from California, New York, Massachusetts, etc., are going to go "MY GOD! That's a great idea! Let's just recognize it!"

No. IF it ever happens, it's going to have a hugely convoluted set of Federal rules and regs, and very likely a shitpot lot more local regs in anti-gun states, behind it.

And, were I a betting man, I'd bet that one of those reps/senators would add the legislative issue of death to any such proposal -- sure, we'll agree to CCW reciprocity, you just have to agree to complete registration; handguns AND long guns.

[wmenorr67]

Maybe, just maybe he can pull a rabbit out of his hat via EO.

[Triphammer]

Full faith & credit would be completely agreeable to me. If the feds wanted a "National License" or something like a commercial drivers license with all the additional hoops to jump through & added costs & inconveniences, I'd want no part.

Yes Arizona went from Open carry only to permit concealed to permitless w/ an optional permit for added convenience & out of state recognition but I don't see the feds going from more to less stringent.

[MechAg94]

The spread of concealed carry has been a big victory for gun rights over the last 20 years or so.  My only concern is that we don't undermine that progress with bad legislation.  I am conditioned to have to this concern by the performance of past Republican majorities.  It should be a simple thing, but I am afraid it won't be by the time Congress gets something passed. 

[Scout26]

Maybe, just maybe he can pull a rabbit out of his hat via EO.

"With regard to the carry of weapons, the Full Faith and Credit Clause shall apply to the 50 separate states and all Commonwealths and Territories of the United States." 

[MikeB]

The last few bills about this have only been about recognition of licenses bay all states. We almost had it about 8 years ago or so, but it failed by one or two votes in the Senate. Arlen Specter was one of them.

The concern has always been that if the Fed.gov issues permits they would come with all kinds or restrictions we don't want. If the bill is just recognition like the past few have been then there is no reason for any gun owner to be against it.

[Mannlicher]

I am not convinced that a nationwide CCW law is prudent.  I am against it at this time.  Let the various States handle it.  Works just fine, for the most part. 
What I WOULD like to see the Feds do, is to decide, once and for all, that 'shall not be infringed', means just that.  There is far too much in the way of regulation already.

[MikeB]

I am not convinced that a nationwide CCW law is prudent.  I am against it at this time.  Let the various States handle it.  Works just fine, for the most part. 
What I WOULD like to see the Feds do, is to decide, once and for all, that 'shall not be infringed', means just that.  There is far too much in the way of regulation already.

I'm sorry, but that is the definition of shooting yourself in the foot in the scope of the proposed legislation. There is not currently nor have the last few bills involved the federal government doing anything except saying to the sates that they have to recognize each other's licenses or permits the same as drivers licenses. How can you not support that?

Now the next step should be to force the states to organically recognize the carry part of the second amendment, but these things don't happen overnight and that second goal would probably happen on its own. Citizens of NJ are going to start getting pretty pissed when everyone except them can carry in their state for example.

[RoadKingLarry]

I'm all for full faith and credit recognition of permits being required.
I don't for one minute expect states like NJ or California to comply even if it is federal law.

I am firmly against the concept of a federal CCW permit.

[Scout26]

Reciprocity, just like gay marriage.  If you have a marriage license from any of the 57 states, then you a considered to be married in all of them.  Resident or not.


That's something that probably could be done by EO. (Thanks Barak !!!!) 

[De Selby]

Funny this, I remember long rants here about how federal anything reforming gun laws was a terrible idea....including from you Hawkmoon

[RoadKingLarry]

What most of us are supporting isn't so much a reform of laws but a requirement for other states to accept CCW permits that same as drivers licenses and marriage licenses.

[Hawkmoon]

Funny this, I remember long rants here about how federal anything reforming gun laws was a terrible idea....including from you Hawkmoon

I have always been opposed to the notion of the feral government getting into the carry permit business. I don't believe I have ever expressed opposition to the feral government forcing the states to apply the full faith and credit provision of the Constitution to state- or county-issued carry licenses or permits.

[De Selby]

I have always been opposed to the notion of the feral government getting into the carry permit business. I don't believe I have ever expressed opposition to the feral government forcing the states to apply the full faith and credit provision of the Constitution to state- or county-issued carry licenses or permits.

So a federal law to replace existing state laws is what you want?  Interesting idea - has anyone else floated that on this forum?

[Hawkmoon]

So a federal law to replace existing state laws is what you want?  Interesting idea - has anyone else floated that on this forum?

No, not to replace existing state law. Each state would retain its laws pertaining to the issuance of carry licenses or permits. The federal law would do nothing other than to enforce the full faith and credit provision that has been in the Constitution for over 200 years. The feds already did this with the LEOSA.

[wmenorr67]

I'm all for full faith and credit recognition of permits being required.
I don't for one minute expect states like NJ or California to comply even if it is federal law.

I am firmly against the concept of a federal CCW permit.

The way you make a state comply is via money.  You either will comply or you won't get money from us.

It worked when the feds stuffed the drinking age to 21 down the states throats.

[lupinus]

A victory is a victory. If the terms aren't 100% how you'd like, it's still a damned victory.

Get the victory and work on expanding it from there. The folks who want it all in one shot will never get anything.