Author Topic: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry  (Read 8333 times)

Jocassee

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Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« on: February 06, 2009, 09:05:50 AM »
I don't normally go on a posting spree, but this was too important to pass up.

http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/570428.html

I want someone to explain to me why its okay to kill a 23-week baby in the womb but not after it's been born. 23 weeks is what, nearly six months. Is abortion at that stage legal?

Quote
What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out.

Quote
Even those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations.

Is that a fact.

Quote
The Department of Health account continues as follows: Just before noon she began to feel ill. The clinic contacted Renelique. Two hours later, he still hadn't shown up. Williams went into labor and delivered the baby.
"She came face to face with a human being," Pennekamp said. "And that changed everything."

Not a tumour. Not a tissue growth. Not a fetus (I know that is a proper scientific term, but it has been used to minimize human life).

I hope stories like this enlighten the public to the atrocities this country continues to commit in our "clinics."

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roo_ster

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2009, 09:52:40 AM »
Yeah, I read about this.  Depressing as heck to think we have a goodly number of sociopaths in the medical profession.

Let us all recall that our current POTUS voted against the Born Alive Infants Act analog in the Illinois state senate.
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FTA84

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 09:54:02 AM »
I'll never understand why it is legal to have an abortion (one out of convenience, that is), yet killing a mother and baby gets is two counts of murder.  Obviously, the latter is the correct view.  How come they aren't consistent?

MechAg94

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 11:57:41 AM »
I guess it is because the idea that a baby is a separate living person inside the womb is debated, but no one I have heard debates whether a living baby outside the womb is a separate living person. 
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Iain

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 12:16:42 PM »
I want someone to explain to me why its okay to kill a 23-week baby in the womb but not after it's been born. 23 weeks is what, nearly six months. Is abortion at that stage legal?

It is legal, under certain circumstances:

Quote
The Supreme Court has held that bans [on later term abortion] must include exceptions for threats to the woman's life, physical health, and mental health
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-term_abortion

I'm not sure what the US defines as late term. Several states prohibit abortion after 24 weeks. Also note - over 85% of abortions occur before 12 weeks in the US according to the CDC, and only 1.4% happen over 20 weeks.

It is a blurry line, and I am distinctly uncomfortable with it.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 12:34:37 PM »
This sickens me.

Getting an abortion as you're going into labor?  Seriously, WTF?

The "parasite" is coming out one way or another at that point anyways.  Drop it off at a fire station with no questions asked... how much less responsibility can you ask for?  People are so warped that they will deliver a child and throw it in the trash?

This illustrates perfectly that abortion isn't about "choice."  It's about selfishness and self-denial.

I didn't get knocked up.  See?  I don't have a baby, do I?

I really think it exists purely to dodge the stigma of the above statement.

I think Sycloria Williams (the womb-donor... "Mother" is not a title befitting her) needs to face charges too.  Attempting to abort a baby as you're going in to labor?

My brother was 2 months premature, the result of an accidentally induced early labor from a fall.  He's 24 years old now.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 12:35:05 PM »
This is the problem with the pro-choice crowd. They don't just argue that a foetus or an embryo is not a person (which is arguable). They want a right to kill the unborn at any stage of pregnancy.

Even accepting (which a lot of people don't) that the 9th Amendment guarnatees a person a right to his own body, any right to abort foetuses should end at the point that the foetus becomes a baby.

I do not know whether that happens on the 2nd or 3rd trimester.

But even if you accept completely the argument that a woman should be empowered to abort the pregnancy at any stage (even, crazily, on the last day before birth), it simply does not follow that this right should somehow extend to the baby after it has been born.

And this is the problem with an extremist pro-choice view like this - it leads to a dehumanization of the baby.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 12:36:36 PM »
Another point which I do not understand - what the hell is the purpose of getting an abortion at this late stage of the pregnancy.

Okay, you don't want the baby. I got it. Can't you give it away for adoption? Why was it so urgent to take another person's life? What possible benefit could she have derived from this?
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AJ Dual

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 12:55:47 PM »
Another point which I do not understand - what the hell is the purpose of getting an abortion at this late stage of the pregnancy.

Okay, you don't want the baby. I got it. Can't you give it away for adoption? Why was it so urgent to take another person's life? What possible benefit could she have derived from this?

Indeed, that's why there really is no justification for late-term abortion. If it was a "life of the mother" issue, such as severe preclampsia, or internal bleeding, the proper medical answer would be a C-section to get the baby out anyway. In most any case you can imagine, a vaginal delivery is always more dangerous.

It is nothing but a loophole to commit infanticide.  =( I suppose a desperate mother who is afraid of her family or spouse finding out she's pregnant and has managed to conceal a pregnancy through the first two trimesters with loose clothing etc. might see it as a way out.  No justification for killing a baby though.

I do feel that the extreme end of the pro-life side diminishes its argument by inserting itself into the very, very, early stages of conception, being concerned about the "rights" of stored embryos/blastocycsts, and opposing contraception methods that prevent implantation of fertilized eggs, well before the embryo has arms, legs, organs, or a nervous system.

Although the net result is mainly to make a nuisance of themselves.

However, the extreme end of the pro-choice side, including our current POTUS, defends infanticide. The difference is pretty clear there.
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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 01:09:51 PM »
This is the problem with the pro-choice crowd. They don't just argue that a foetus or an embryo is not a person (which is arguable). They want a right to kill the unborn at any stage of pregnancy.


No they don't, at least not the mainstream ones.

Our current president is no more for late-term abortions than mainstream activists.
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Azrael256

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2009, 01:23:03 PM »
Quote
Drop it off at a fire station with no questions asked...

That brings up the part of this that disturbs me the most.  The fact that the person attending to the mother made no effort to rescue the living child.  The whole thing is horrifying on it's own, and the child would likely not have survived long enough for paramedics to arrive, but no call for qualified medical assistance at all.

AJ Dual

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2009, 01:25:28 PM »
No they don't, at least not the mainstream ones.

Our current president is no more for late-term abortions than mainstream activists.

His voting record says otherwise.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2009, 01:28:29 PM »
So, did Obama name this bloke as Surgeon General, yet?
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jackdanson

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2009, 01:35:29 PM »
I hate the "health of the mother" argument.  In 7 years working at an OB/GYN I never once saw a case where an abortion would save the life of the mother... that is just a loophole liberals put in legislation to allow ANYONE to get an abortion at any point.  Pregnancy is a health risk to the mother no matter what and abortion doctors can make up whatever they want to perform it.  Slight increase in BP?  OK for abortion.  Gestational Diabetes? OK for abortion.  "Mental health" of the mother? OK for abortion.  We deal with these problems daily, they aren't a serious health risk for the mother if she follows the doctors orders.

Also I love it when pro abortion folks say they want abortion to be legal for "health of the mother".  If it isn't a baby, and it isn't alive, then she isn't a "mother".

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2009, 01:40:20 PM »
So, did Obama name this bloke as Surgeon General, yet?

Depends.  Did he pay his taxes?  If "yes," he doesn't qualify to be a BHO appointee.
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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2009, 01:45:51 PM »
and suicde by an adult is wrong/illegal
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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2009, 02:41:46 PM »
this story will not be reported widely and then completely disappear.
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Seenterman

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2009, 02:44:15 PM »
Quote
Even those who support abortion rights are concerned about the allegations.

Is that a fact.

Yes it is a fact.
Im Pro-Choice but this is sick and disturbing.  I dont know anyone that would consider a baby born prematurely as a "fetus" and able of being thrown away killed.

From what I know about abortions related to me first hand, the woman is usually unconscious from the anesthesia. Was this woman under anesthesia?

From the article I read a second party not the woman, nor the abortion doctor killed the baby by placing him/her in a plastic bag and throwing it away. Was this woman conscious as her baby was being thrown away? Second how the hell did the media find out about this; someone said something. Was it the woman supposed to get the abortion, or another party that worked at that clinic.

There are alot of questions to still be answered, If the woman getting the abortion was conscious and of able mind (not medically drugged because those realllllly f*** you up) at the time her baby was being killed she needs to be charged with infantcide along with the worker who commited the murder.

Please do not think Pro-Choice people want this, or are anywhere near supporting this. The baby took a breath on his/her own, that means he/she was alive and capable of living on his own. The very definition that Pro-Choice supporters use as the mark of human life.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2009, 02:57:24 PM »
So, did Obama name this bloke as Surgeon General, yet?

He isn't elligable, he paid his taxes.
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makattak

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2009, 03:12:00 PM »
Yes it is a fact.
Im Pro-Choice but this is sick and disturbing.  I dont know anyone that would consider a baby born prematurely as a "fetus" and able of being thrown away killed.

From what I know about abortions related to me first hand, the woman is usually unconscious from the anesthesia. Was this woman under anesthesia?

From the article I read a second party not the woman, nor the abortion doctor killed the baby by placing him/her in a plastic bag and throwing it away. Was this woman conscious as her baby was being thrown away? Second how the hell did the media find out about this; someone said something. Was it the woman supposed to get the abortion, or another party that worked at that clinic.

There are alot of questions to still be answered, If the woman getting the abortion was conscious and of able mind (not medically drugged because those realllllly f*** you up) at the time her baby was being killed she needs to be charged with infantcide along with the worker who commited the murder.

Please do not think Pro-Choice people want this, or are anywhere near supporting this. The baby took a breath on his/her own, that means he/she was alive and capable of living on his own. The very definition that Pro-Choice supporters use as the mark of human life.

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/02/links_to_barack.html

Yeah, "Pro-Choice" people want to stop this practice, for sure.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2009, 03:17:01 PM »
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/02/links_to_barack.html

Yeah, "Pro-Choice" people want to stop this practice, for sure.

Yes, because what Obama feels on this issue is shared by all pro-choice people.
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makattak

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2009, 03:20:54 PM »
Yes, because what Obama feels on this issue is shared by all pro-choice people.

Quote
Please do not think Pro-Choice people want this, or are anywhere near supporting this

I have no doubt that Obama does not represent all Pro-Choice people.

There are, however, at least some who do- most notably, President Obama.

I was merely pointing out that it's not verboten to all "Pro-Choice" individuals.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2009, 04:56:24 PM »
Quote
Yeah, "Pro-Choice" people want to stop this practice, for sure.

Yea but when you quote my entire post, and reply with a snippy one line responce it comes across as antagonistic and a "Yea sure" attitude.

If you can list me or cite alllll these Pro Choice people who think its alright to kill a baby that is breathing on its own, I will conceed that Pro Choice supporters are just baby killers in sheeps clothing.

If you can't list anyone (not voting on a bill does not = I support killing new born babies) please tone down the retoric, its bordering on slander because if you actually think this is what 90% or even 51% (Of course there will be some lunatic fringe what group doesn't have its wackjobs??) of Pro Choice supporter belive it just shows how out of touch you are with the abortion issue.

jackdanson

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2009, 05:05:11 PM »
Quote
If you can list me or cite alllll these Pro Choice people who think its alright to kill a baby that is breathing on its own, I will conceed that Pro Choice supporters are just baby killers in sheeps clothing.


Sooo, if it's breathing on it's own, it's alive; but if the baby is getting it's breath through it's mother it's not?  I'm confused.  What about people on ventilators, are they alive?  Does your soul magically enter your body when you take your first breath?  What about if you draw the baby out of the mother, but kill it just before it has a chance to take it's first breath?  Is that OK?

Do you believe abortion is unethical?  Would you reccomend someone get one?

Jocassee

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Re: Abortion vs Murder: The Line is Officially Blurry
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2009, 05:06:32 PM »
Yes it is a fact.
Im Pro-Choice but this is sick and disturbing.  I dont know anyone that would consider a baby born prematurely as a "fetus" and able of being thrown away killed.

From what I know about abortions related to me first hand, the woman is usually unconscious from the anesthesia. Was this woman under anesthesia?

From the article I read a second party not the woman, nor the abortion doctor killed the baby by placing him/her in a plastic bag and throwing it away. Was this woman conscious as her baby was being thrown away? Second how the hell did the media find out about this; someone said something. Was it the woman supposed to get the abortion, or another party that worked at that clinic.

There are alot of questions to still be answered, If the woman getting the abortion was conscious and of able mind (not medically drugged because those realllllly f*** you up) at the time her baby was being killed she needs to be charged with infantcide along with the worker who commited the murder.

Please do not think Pro-Choice people want this, or are anywhere near supporting this. The baby took a breath on his/her own, that means he/she was alive and capable of living on his own. The very definition that Pro-Choice supporters use as the mark of human life.

You make some good points, but you miss THE point--which is, a life is a life, whether it is in the womb or breathing on its own. That is what makes abortion wrong, not some semantical difference over whether it is really "alive" by a definition set up by the abortionists.

I will concur that the article needs more detail about the situation in question, but the issue remains the same.
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