Author Topic: Paging Fly320s - French A330 Crash of 2009 (Read 8304 times)

Devonai · « **Reply #25 on:** July 07, 2012, 11:31:14 PM »

Jesus, remind me never to up anything more complicated than a 172...

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 07, 2012, 11:50:39 PM »

AJ, regarding what you found via Nova...

Google "Coffin Corner" or "Mach Tuck" sometime.

There's a very narrow window of airspeed at altitude where only a few knots' difference means you're either overspeed or in a stall.

My U-2 buddies call their planes Dragon Lady for many reasons, but that's one of them.

Boomhauer · « **Reply #27 on:** July 07, 2012, 11:53:13 PM »

Quote from: Devonai on July 07, 2012, 11:31:14 PM

Jesus, remind me never to up anything more complicated than a 172...

Haven't seen the new 172s, have you?

And you can only get them in glass panel nowadays (as far as new production goes). Been that way for a few years.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 08, 2012, 12:09:03 AM »

Yup. Steam gages are going bye-bye, even in vintage USAF heavies.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #29 on:** July 08, 2012, 12:17:56 AM »

Quote from: Fly320s on July 07, 2012, 09:56:40 PM

Dials is heavy. Electronics is light and more functional.

I'll give you the "light" but I won't give you more functional. The problem with anything digital is that you have to read it, and reading takes time. One of the major advantages of analog instrumentation is that the operator's eyes and mind register where the needle points under "normal" conditions. Before very long, this becomes ingrained, like muscle memory. All the operator has to do is glance at the dial -- if the needle is where it's supposed to be, everything is A-Okay. No need to read any numbers.

If the needle is out of position, it's a boot in the rear to see WHY it's out of position.

Phyphor · « **Reply #30 on:** July 08, 2012, 12:18:53 AM »

Why do the words "General Protection Fault" come to mind - and send a shiver down my spine?

Tallpine · « **Reply #31 on:** July 08, 2012, 11:25:21 AM »

Quote from: Phyphor on July 08, 2012, 12:18:53 AM

Why do the words "General Protection Fault" come to mind - and send a shiver down my spine?

Your thirty day trial period has expired.

Hawkmoon · « **Reply #32 on:** July 08, 2012, 11:30:43 AM »

This could give an entirely new meaning to the term "Blue screen of death."

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #33 on:** July 08, 2012, 11:52:31 AM »

All of our digital replacement gages mimicked the older steam gages in the ability to scan or sweep the panel functions. That's a programming function, and the designers of glass cockpits know they have transitioning aircrews.

MillCreek · « **Reply #34 on:** July 08, 2012, 12:17:26 PM »

Exactly the same reason why I still prefer analog watches and clocks. At a glance I can tell the time, as opposed to doing the digital translation.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #35 on:** July 08, 2012, 02:47:49 PM »

Like I said, the glass cockpits still take into account the need to sweep or scan the instrument panel. That never went away, just like master caution lights.

I'd love to see what other instruments failed on that Airbus. The artificial horizon?

The copilot maintained aft stick pressure for 3.5 minutes because he got erroneous high airspeed indications and was trying to bleed off that airspeed before overstressing the airframe past the limits.

There's an old saying, "The throttle is for altitude, the elevator is for airspeed". Much truth there.

I know Crew Resource Management became mandatory for military aircrews after the Sioux Falls miracle landing. I don't know if it went further than the DoD, but it forces all involved to take a cohesive approach to inflight emergencies. Rule #1 is still "Fly the airplane!", but when stuff starts getting wonky, get your nose into the boldface checklist and make sure all have situational awareness.

Fly320s · « **Reply #36 on:** July 08, 2012, 03:38:17 PM »

Lots to answer, but first...

For Fistful.

Fly320s · « **Reply #37 on:** July 08, 2012, 03:45:56 PM »

Quote from: Hawkmoon on July 08, 2012, 12:17:56 AM

I'll give you the "light" but I won't give you more functional. The problem with anything digital is that you have to read it, and reading takes time. One of the major advantages of analog instrumentation is that the operator's eyes and mind register where the needle points under "normal" conditions. Before very long, this becomes ingrained, like muscle memory. All the operator has to do is glance at the dial -- if the needle is where it's supposed to be, everything is A-Okay. No need to read any numbers.

If the needle is out of position, it's a boot in the rear to see WHY it's out of position.

Notice that the gauges still retain the easy-to-read pointer and dial format, but they are now drawn by a computer. They are still easy to read and much more precise. Plus, the computers can put markers at the reference point which can change as needed. For instance, our engine power settings have three different maximums: TOGA, Flex/MCT, and climb. Each limit is automatically calculated and displayed on the engine gauges. I don't have to read a dial, I just check that the engine power is at or below the limit. Easy.

Fly320s · « **Reply #38 on:** July 08, 2012, 03:52:16 PM »

Quote from: Gewehr98 on July 08, 2012, 02:47:49 PM

Like I said, the glass cockpits still take into account the need to sweep or scan the instrument panel. That never went away, just like master caution lights.

I'd love to see what other instruments failed on that Airbus. The artificial horizon?

The copilot maintained aft stick pressure for 3.5 minutes because he got erroneous high airspeed indications and was trying to bleed off that airspeed before overstressing the airframe past the limits.

There's an old saying, "The throttle is for altitude, the elevator is for airspeed". Much truth there.

I know Crew Resource Management became mandatory for military aircrews after the Sioux Falls miracle landing. I don't know if it went further than the DoD, but it forces all involved to take a cohesive approach to inflight emergencies. Rule #1 is still "Fly the airplane!", but when stuff starts getting wonky, get your nose into the boldface checklist and make sure all have situational awareness.

AFAIK, only the airspeed failed initially, and that was recovered fairly quickly.

CRM was started by United Airlines back in the '70s. It started after one of their infamous crashes, but I forget which one. Basically, the captain was an a-hole and the first officer and engineer said, "Screw it. Let him eff up." He did.

Yes, the focus is still "Fly the plane!" Surprisingly, some people forget this simple concept.