Author Topic: NiMH may lose market share  (Read 1774 times)

vaskidmark

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NiMH may lose market share
« on: June 18, 2015, 09:14:55 AM »
NiMH batteies sell themselves on longer service life and repeated rechargability.  That may be seriously challenged.

https://www.yahoo.com/makers/no-joke-new-2-50-gadget-makes-batteries-last-8-120545843275.html

Quote
If you’re still not excited, here are some additional claims from the Silicon Valley startup:

The Batteriser just slips on a normal battery without making it too bulky to fit in your various devices.

It can be used over and over.

The company insists it’s safe to touch and is chemical-free. You can bring it in your carry-on bag or luggage, since it doesn’t violate any TSA rules.

It will slip over any normal AAA, AA, C, or D battery.

It slices, dices, and chops, too!  (OK, we made that one up.)

Given the low cost, I just might get a few.

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MechAg94

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2015, 10:41:26 AM »
Will it make the alkaline batteries leak acid quicker?  

You can get alkaline batteries fairly cheap anyway.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2015, 11:05:15 AM »
Will it make the alkaline batteries leak acid quicker?  

You can get alkaline batteries fairly cheap anyway.

http://www.eevblog.com/2015/06/07/the-batteriser-explained/

From comments:
Quote
Dave,

As you mentioned, rechargeable batteries will be damaged (battery life/capacity dramatically reduced) when discharged too low. Alkaline (Zn/MnO2) and especially Zinc-Carbon batteries are prone to leakage when discharged too low (below 0.8V) ... I've designed on-chip boost converters for microcontrollers used in keyboards, mice, remote controls, cameras, etc. which REQUIRED converter shutoff at 0.8V for 1-cell or 1.6V for two-cell operation to prevent deep discharge and resulting battery leakage. Apple, Samsung, Logitech, Amazon, Microsoft, and others expect converters to include protection circuitry to cut-off battery drain between ~0.8-0.9V. The "Batteriser" would almost certainly cause leaky batteries and damage to devices when discharged down to 0.6V. Since almost no additional energy is available between 0.8V and 0.6V discharge voltage, a lot of pain for no gain!

From Energizer:

13. What increases the possibility for alkaline battery leakage?  Typically alkaline batteries will not leak under normal storage and/or usage conditions. The potential for leakage is significantly increased however if the batteries are subjected to charging, mixing of battery chemistries, mixing of fresh and used batteries, physical damage, extended exposure to high temperature or deep discharged. Alkaline battery leakage is extremely caustic and contact with bare skin should be avoided. In the event that battery leakage comes in contact with your skin, flush the area for 15 minutes with copious amounts of water and seek medical attention.
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MechAg94

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2015, 11:08:35 AM »
Interesting.  Thanks.  I never looked at it before and didn't realize they used cut off circuits, but that makes sense.
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AJ Dual

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2015, 01:25:10 PM »
Looks awesome, but I doubt it'll fit in my AA flashlights.  =(


http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/batteriser-cool-tech-or-scam/

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/15/06/08/1433243/debunking-the-batterisers-claims

If your AA flashlights are LED, they already have that circuit in them. That's all this is, a voltage boost driver, which sucks up the "long tail" (graphed out) of wasted amperage when the voltage drops below the threshold the battery operated device needs. So yes, it's "wasting" some of the battery capacity (generally as waste heat in the circuit) to keep the voltage up longer, but the maker's claims that it's capacity/mili-Amp-hours you're tossing in the trash are quite true.

In reality though, I don't think anything but the form-factor of the slip-on device is patentable, since there's tons of prior art done on voltage boost regulator circuits, and the risk to his business model with the device is that there's nothing stopping device manufacturers from incorporating "joule thief" circuits into TV remotes, Wii controllers, or whatever else is eating batteries. The only real barrier is the price margin of losing a few cents to do so, on something the consumer usually pays no attention to. Or, with the rather tiny IC's costing only a few pennies in bulk, Energizer, Eveready etc. incorporating them right into the skin and contact points of the battery and marketing them in a disposable form factor as both "green" and "longer lived".

LED flashlights are a somewhat competitive among themselves for brightness and runtime, plus often needing a forward voltage for the LED more than a common arrangement of cells in series provides, so the voltage boost driver at the expense of amperage/capacity has been common for a long time now.

The biggest fail is just the claims of 800% battery life.   The math on that is shoddy beyond even grade-school.  :P  Since most devices that are high-drain will have multiple batteries, like four of them in series etc, for 6v, and few consumer devices are so picky that they'll give up at 1.3 or even 1.2 v. IMO his product is "good enough" (I won't say revolultionary) at even a theoretical maximum of 50% extra life, down to maybe a more realistic 20%, that I'm not sure why he's pushing it into the snake-oil territory like this.

Even at 20%, assuming his volume price is right, the things pay for themselves pretty quickly. Not to mention putting a price on lost time or failures when that device death at the cell's last 20% happens and you don't have fresh batteries laying around.

He's better off making a run at it, and then getting picked up on licensing for the alkaline makers to cheap it out so much it can be incorporated into cells directly.

I think the worst part will be people forgetting they've clipped them onto batteries and tossing them. Much like how my wife and kids keep accidentally throwing away the NiMh's in our house.  :mad:
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 01:39:54 PM by AJ Dual »
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RevDisk

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2015, 01:43:28 PM »
NiMH batteies sell themselves on longer service life and repeated rechargability.  That may be seriously challenged.

Ehh. Let someone else test it. I'm skeptical.

Edit: See AJ's post. Everything he said. I am in no way doubting the underlaying technology, just the claims of "8 times". Concur that it will be well under half.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 02:12:41 PM by RevDisk »
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Scout26

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2015, 02:32:25 PM »
Let's say a realistic number is 25%.  At $2.50 per device, they might pay for themselves in 2-4 uses/applications.

I'd be interested in trying/testing them.
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KD5NRH

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2015, 05:22:37 PM »
Edit: See AJ's post. Everything he said. I am in no way doubting the underlaying technology, just the claims of "8 times". Concur that it will be well under half.

And will only help in devices that cut off at or not much below 1.2V.  (Which ain't much; remember that's the nominal full charge voltage for nearly every other AAAA/AA/C/D/F battery type besides alkaline or carbon-zinc.)

Brad Johnson

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2015, 06:20:24 PM »
Watch the EEVBlog vid in it's entirety. David tests the cutoff for many common devices. Most of the devices were operating acceptably at under a volt. At this point the remaining energy reserve in a traditional alkaline cell is, at best, very marginal. See his energy drain graphs for a more detailed explanation.

The Batterizer's underlying theory is sound enough but in daily use I don't see the benefit. Home Depot has 36-packs of AA batteries for $15. That's 42 cents per battery. If you get an additional 20% out of them (which I think is being insanely generous) you're only saving 8.4 cents, a 30-battery break even on a $2.50 Batterizer. If your device uses batteries fast enough to warrant considering the Batterizer then you're better off with NiMH recharcheables. WalMart has Rayovac kits (smart charger + 4 batts) for $15. These will easily give you well over 100 charge cycles if used regularly. (I'm seeing online reports of consumer NiMH cells approaching 200 cycles with only minimal performance degradation).

Also, the Batterizer has a current draw. It's minimal but it's still there. This means they are most definitely not suitable for use in long period battery-installed standbye situations (BOBs, natural disaster kits, emergency equipment etc). Maybe keep a couple in your kit to eke out the absolute last vestiges of power in situations where all you have is a bag of alkalines. That's about the only situation I can think of where it might be of any use. Even then the benefit would be, at best, minimal.

I'll pass.

Brad
« Last Edit: June 19, 2015, 10:11:27 AM by Brad Johnson »
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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2015, 06:32:13 PM »
Also, the Batterizer has a current draw. It's minimal but it's still there. This means they are most definitely not suitable for use in long-period standbye situation (BOBs, natural disaster kits, emergency equipment etc).

Actually, that's the one place I'd want a set, just not attached to the batteries; if it gets even 20% extended use for less weight and bulk than a fifth set of batteries, it's a decent gain...plus you could squeeze a bit more life out of others' discarded batteries in a pinch.  Of course, ultra high efficiency devices, and a variety of devices to meet needs more exactly will help more there; a 5-10 lumen area light will keep you from tripping over stuff a lot longer than your 250 lumen tactical light on one set of batteries, for example, but it won't let you see what's coming across the meadow until too late.

Plus, for lighting in the kits, I tend to have a cheaper version of my every day stuff; a $15 Ozark Trail 2AA light that, ideally, serves as just a spare battery holder for my everyday Fenix, but can also be loaned out or traded (after swapping its fresh batteries with the Fenix's somewhat used ones) if that's a better use at the time.

MechAg94

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2015, 07:43:46 PM »
Okay, I can see the emergency use idea.  I was just thinking that you would get more benefit by making sure you buy fresh batteries that haven't been sitting in a warehouse for 5 years already.  For me, I use few enough batteries that half a 36 pack of alkalines will go bad before I use them.
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Boomhauer

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2015, 07:56:20 PM »
I smell lots of bullshitium

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2015, 08:50:41 PM »
If your device uses batteries fast enough to warrant considering the Batterizer then you're better off with NiMH recharcheables. WalMart has Rayovac kits (smart charger + 4 batts) for $15. These will easily give you well over 100 charge cycles if used regularly. (I'm seeing online reports of consumer NiMH cells approaching 200 cycles with only minimal performance degradation).

Bing!  You can get decent NiMH AA cells for $1.10 each these days.  An OK charger is $10 and a good one is $30.  It doesn't take long to beat the pants off of alkalines even with the 'joule thief' thing and assuming you got the impossible 800% increase in run time.

KD5NRH

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2015, 11:55:55 AM »
Okay, I can see the emergency use idea.  I was just thinking that you would get more benefit by making sure you buy fresh batteries that haven't been sitting in a warehouse for 5 years already.  For me, I use few enough batteries that half a 36 pack of alkalines will go bad before I use them.

Yeah; the only things I use regularly that don't have their own proprietary rechargeable batteries are AA flashlights and AA/AAA bike lights.  The Bell Radians I keep on the bike in case I end up out after dark when I hadn't planned to be take 6 AAAs, but last several months even keeping them turned on as a backup when I have other lights on.  I don't think I've used up the pair of AAAs the Radbot 1000 came with a couple years ago.

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2015, 01:26:21 PM »
And here I thought this was going go be about Lithium Ion batteries.

NiMH tools are starting to be hard to find.  As lithium-ion drops in price, it makes more and more sense to go with them.  You can make more powerful tools that have faster charging batteries that last twice as long at less weight.


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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2015, 02:15:34 PM »
NiMH tools are starting to be hard to find.  As lithium-ion drops in price, it makes more and more sense to go with them.  You can make more powerful tools that have faster charging batteries that last twice as long at less weight.

And still use glued-shut proprietary battery packs that go off the market just about the time the ones that came with the tools fail.

The manufacturer who makes one where I can simply pop open the pack and replace the 18650s inside in a couple minutes will get my next cordless tool purchase.

Firethorn

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2015, 02:19:23 PM »
And still use glued-shut proprietary battery packs that go off the market just about the time the ones that came with the tools fail.

Hmm...  Makes me wonder if there's an opportunity for aftermarket battery packs here...

KD5NRH

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2015, 02:24:23 PM »
Hmm...  Makes me wonder if there's an opportunity for aftermarket battery packs here...

One of the most popular accessories for a Kenwood ham radio I had was a replacement battery pack that took AAs.  The hassle would be stocking packs for all the different tools on the market.  OTOH, for a dealer who has access to cheap-but-uncommon-on-the-consumer-market batteries like 18650s, it would be a huge moneymaker to offer packs like that.

Of course it would void the tool's warranty, but that usually runs out about the same time the included pack won't hold a charge anyway.

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2015, 03:14:16 PM »
And still use glued-shut proprietary battery packs that go off the market just about the time the ones that came with the tools fail.

That's not quite true anymore.  I bought a cordless tool for my dad for Christmas and was discussing this with the sales guy.  He pointed out that battery pack designs haven't changed for the major players for years.  They change the capacity and voltage, but the dimensions are the same.  Then, I realized, I can still get batteries for the Skil set I bought roughly 10 years ago (NiCad and Lithium).

What prompted this discussion was him pointing out the lifetime warranty on batteries that came with the Ridgid brand tools.

Chris

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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2015, 12:10:04 AM »
I can get batteries for 10+ year old tools NiMH, and the batteries are pretty much universal for my Milwalkee tools.

They changed the battery stuff between NiMH and LiIon, but that was actually pretty logical.  But all the same voltage batteries are compatible.


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Re: NiMH may lose market share
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2015, 12:19:51 AM »
Yep most of the makers are pretty stabilized on the batteries. The exception is DeWalt, and hopefully they stabilize on the 20V MAX batteries.

Milwaukee, for example, is pretty committed to the RedLithium M18 18V and the M12 12V batteries for their compact line. Ryobi, same thing, their one battery is shared across the whole family and they say they are sticking with it for a long time so your cordless tools won't go obsolete anytime soon.





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