Thoughts on local politicians and dog leash laws

[Iain]

I wouldn't still be around APS and THR if there were not some very basic principles I share with the general community. Anyway, recently there has been an alleged spate of incidents involving morons encouraging their dogs to chase mothers and small children on their way back from a local school on a route that takes them through a public park.

Our local Liberal (they are the Liberal party, claim to be the inheritors of the old British Liberal party, nothing to do with the Liberal Democrat party) councillors put forward a motion, which if passed would result in that park becoming a 'dogs on leash' park. After reading this in the local paper, and in their local newsletter, I shot them an email -

Dear ____ _____,

After receiving your newsletter today, and after reading the article on
this issue that appeared in the ______ recently, I have to say I am
concerned.

I am concerned for those who have been endangered by a reckless and
irresponsible minority. Equally though, I am concerned by any suggested
resolution to this issue that would punish all as though they were
guilty. There are many responsible dog owners who use ___________,
some of us even clear up after our animals.

I don't see how the actions of a few should be responded to with
legislation that punishes all equally, and which the culprits will
likely ignore anyway.

I received a response -

Council's Cabinet Scrutiny Cttee is looking at it again in Feb.
One suggestion is a fenced off dog walking area where dogs can be off leads and then a requirement for dogs to be off leads in rest of park.(like ________ Park)
We have now had a complaint from a resident of _________ whose 3yr old was jumped at and bitten/scratched by a dog which was running loose and who is complaining because the Police are not taking action!
_____ __________

Not sure why the dog is complaining, perhaps the three year old tasted funny, turkey twizzler intake might do that. But really, she addressed the whole damn problem without realising that she had done it - the Police are not taking action, at least there has been nothing done about those causing the damn problem. Deal with them.

I shouldn't have expected much better of this councillor, last year out of curiosity I attended a local meeting of the UK Independence Party which she also attended, and subsequently she got her face in the paper complaining that speakers at the meeting had been racist towards Poles, of which there is an old and large community in this town. Didn't happen, I'm not particularly sympathetic to UKIP, and there may be a xenophobic element about them, but nothing happened at that meeting.

Anyway, that's a bit of a rant. Local politics stories welcome.

[Stand_watie]

Typical local politics, swatting flies with sledgehammers. Around here it seems that youth curfews and school uniforms are all the rage.

My suggestion, buy a lot in the country where you don't have to worry about taking your dogs to the park to run and play off leash. My ten acre lot cost me 8,000 dollars in 1997.

What, you can't find ten acres for that price in the UK? I'll sponsor you if you want to emmigrate.

[Perd Hapley]

All politicians should be kept on leashes.  No exceptions.

[Azrael256]

Leashes, nothing.  I'm thinking shock collars in the megavolt range.

[CAnnoneer]

You can keep any dog off the leash without a muzzler at any time anywhere, so long as I can walk around armed all the time and shoot your pooch dead when I decide it endangers me or other people.

[Iain]

You'd better make sure that decision is correct then CAnnoneer.

Stand - nice offer, can't really see me being able to do that though. Can't really see me being able to afford ten acres of British countryside for a while either.

Not really sure whether to continue the correspondance with this person, might just go straight to the top, Elected Petty Chief Bureaucrat in Charge of Council Cabinet Scrutiny Cttee with additional responsibility for offical jargon and abbreviations.

[Sindawe]

You can keep any dog off the leash without a muzzler at any time anywhere, so long as I can walk around armed all the time and shoot your pooch dead when I decide it endangers me or other people.

I'm with CAnnoneer on this.  Fido/Cerberus may be nothing but sweet and loving with his family and those he knows, but usually *I'M* not in that grouping when I encounter Fido/Cerberus on neighborhood streets, in the park or on the mountain trails.   If his owner ain't around (which happens all to frequently), all I see it a distrustful dog that has its hackles raised and is barking at me.  Doggies that charge aggressively get to become doggie stew.

Don't like it?  Keep your canine under control and on a leash when in public.  The establishment of "doggie parks" is a great idea.  It sets up an area where dogs CAN run free and social with other dogs, and those who do not wish to interact with dogs at large don't have too.

Just so I'm accused of anti-dog bias, I feel the same way about cats.  Keep 'em inside, on a leash outside or in an enclosed cat run for outdoors exposure.

[Iain]

Doesn't happen much in my experience. Never had a nasty situation with someone else's dog. Not saying it doesn't happen, but when it does I will blame the owner of that dog. Not the owner of some other dog that hasn't done a thing.

[Stand_watie]

... when it does I will blame the owner of that dog. Not the owner of some other dog that hasn't done a thing.

I agree with you there, and if you train a dog properly (for being off lead in public) it doesn't need a lead.

[CAnnoneer]

You'd better make sure that decision is correct then CAnnoneer.

As stated, the contract stipulates that my decision would be unquestionable. Notice the intentional difference from current self-defense laws.

[Iain]

I thought that's what you meant. In which I'll state this would be unacceptable, and I'll not comment further.

[Art Eatman]

After some decades of casual observation of people and dogs, most pet-dog people don't train their dogs beyond a call at feeding time.  

A public park is suppposed to be safe for all people of all ages, all the time.  A public park is not a doggie-poop repository nor a place for uncontrolled dogs.

Ergo, leash laws.  Dog owners make them necessary, not the politicians.  Not the children.  Not the doddering Old Farts.

An amazing number of people work very hard at avoiding the fact that dogs are predators.  "Not my Phaideaux!"  Sorry, those fangs aren't there for decoration.

Don't want a leash on your dog?  Keep a lawyer on retainer, then.

Art

[Iain]

Maybe this is one of those issues where the US has different attitudes, or maybe it is an urban/rural difference, don't know. If I were to keep my dog on a leash at all times in public he'd not get much exercise, it has been noted that ten acres of British land isn't cheap. Local forest, nature reserves and public parks are used all the time by Britain's approximately 6-10 million dogs.

Irresponsible dog owners do necessitate leash laws. When and where there is a problem with dogs, chasing livestock etc, on a basis that would be more more regular than extremely infrequent, then I'd agree, leash laws may be necessary. I've known of this park for over ten years, and this is the first time I've heard of people encouraging their dogs to chase children.

That's the problem, idiots encouraging their dogs to chase children. That is what should be prevented, and what should be dealt with. And, as I said in my email, if they do introduce this rule I'll have to obey it. Doubt those who are causing the problem, those who are irresponsible and don't train their dogs, will do the same. There is nobody there to enforce the rule, no park wardens or police patrols who perhaps could actually deal with the present situation.

It doesn't need this legislation to deal with those who recklessly endanger others, it just requires someone to go out and enforce existing legislation on dangerous animals and reckless endangerment.

[Jamisjockey]

You can keep any dog off the leash without a muzzler at any time anywhere, so long as I can walk around armed all the time and shoot your pooch dead when I decide it endangers me or other people.

As someone who was bitten by a deadly weapon, I too am in this camp.  Keep your assualt-dog on a leash.  Its for the kids...
Seriously, don't make me post a picture of my ass, right where I was bitten on a public street by a dog that came off the owners property to assault me.  
In public, incorporated areas, your dog damn well better be under control.  I now have a cute little kel-tec for any future doggy-assaults.

[HankB]

I like dogs. Most are friendly towards people, and when they approach they're most often looking for a new friend to play with or scratch behind their ears.

But a dog that endangers - note, endangers, not annoys or barks at - me or a member of my family today will become a bullet catcher. And the individual who encourages his dog to chase a child of mine will rue the day he made that decision.

When I was in school, I found that concentrated ammonia (lab grade, not the weak household product) mixed with powdered cayenne pepper was effective in repelling Fido/Cujo  when squirted in his face.

A baseball bat also worked.

Can Brits obtain ammonia and powdered hot peppers, or perhaps tote along a cricket bat, walking stick, or golf club? (Just sporting goods, you know.)

[Iain]

I don't want to see a picture of your ass Jamis. Sorry that you got bit, some stuff from the CDC that I read earlier would indicate that what happened to you is the most common form of dog attack (close proximity to owners house), other than attacks that actually occur on owners property, and most likely the latter involve the owners or their children. If that is reassuring in anyway. Which it isn't. Responsible dog owners don't allow a situation where a dog can escape its own property and get on to public areas. The back garden here is secure, although some of that work was done because of a former neighbour's dogs.

I can remember people talking about dogs getting dumped in the countryside over there, and I'm sure it happens here. Maybe there exists a different culture with dogs, for instance I don't see many dogs just wandering the streets, used to, but it seems to have declined. Certainly I've never encountered an urban pack in this country, but I have seen them in Greece and Spain.

There is another thing that seems different, on a board I used to frequent, one new dog owner posted a poll about getting his male dog neutered. I was the lone voice that argued that if he had no intention of breeding from the animal then neutering was a good option. Don't know about stats, but anecdotally the most frequent problem dogs I encounter (although that is 99% unwelcome sexual advances to my neutered male) are intact males.

Hank - pretty much no options but whatever stick might be to hand. I also don't disagree with your statement about a dog that endangers you becoming a bullet catcher. Have no problems with that whatsover.

[Stand_watie]

I'd imagine it to be more of an urban/non-urban difference, Ian, than a U.S. vs British. Probably if you polled apartment dwellers etc in the US far more would break the way you see things than rural property owners in Britain.

Something called O.C. (pepper spray) is sold over the counter here, that is a fairly decent dog repellent (but not angry grizzly repellent, contrary to the Canadian governments protestations) , a shame you can't at least carry that.  It's actually a lot less dangerous than "whatever might be be handy when your attacked".

[CAnnoneer]

I thought that's what you meant. In which I'll state this would be unacceptable, and I'll not comment further.

Many find a dog without a leash on a public street equally unacceptable.

I would offer another spin to the argument to say that dog owners refuse to realize that their control over their pet is objectively suspect. Even the best-trained animal is inherently unpredictable, much unlike a well-designed well-maintained gun. There have been cases for most docile and friendly pooches suddenly attacking babies, while there is no record I know of of guns spontaneously going off especially when unloaded. That is why I believe the comparison between gun freedoms and doggie freedoms to be inherently flawed.

[DrAmazon]

I kept my dog on the leash 100% of the time unless we were in our own or a friend's fenced in yard OR at the designated off leash dog park.  She had a 30 foot lead, which gave her plenty of room to roam and sniff (and even swim a bit at the local pond), but ensured that I could get her on heel and sitting quickly if I needed to.

I had a large rottie/dobie mix.  She was sweet and very well trained.  However most people at the park were not very well trained or did stupid things because they were startled by her.  I also enjoyed dealing with the off-leash ankle biters that would run up to my dog barking and snarling.  I'd get my dog into a sit-stay or down-stay, while waiting for the owner to run up "oh, Fifi never hurt anyone" or "Oh, don't let your big dog hurt my Fifi".  It was all she could do to just sit there and take it.  I actually kicked one once who I thought was going to bite her.  

I  found small dogs to be a bigger problem than large ones.  There are so many "bad dog" behaviors that are tolerated from little dogs but just don't fly with big dogs.

[Tallpine]

Stand - nice offer, can't really see me being able to do that though. Can't really see me being able to afford ten acres of British countryside for a while either.

Well then, Iain - have you considered becoming an alcoholic ...? 
(and just letting the world go to hell around you )


Oh my - don't get me started on this topic, but you already did - you asked for it.

About 3.5 yrs ago we moved out into the country.  Before that, we owned a house and lived in a small town (<2K people).  Dogs running loose in town were a problem, even though there was a leash law.  There was no animal control, nor even any city police, and the sheriff deputies had to handle everything in town and out of town, including animals.

But - at least at that time - there was no facility to impound dogs.  They contracted with somebody to board them, but apparently that outfit was turning the dogs back to the owners without regard to the fines and fees.

So the city council - in their inestimable wisdom and in defiance of vocal protest - enacted new dog ordinances limiting residents to two dogs per household, plus increased dog license fees including a prohibitive tax on unaltered dogs (even registered show animals), and an outright ban dogs breeding in town.  But nothing to deal with the enforcement problem of all the dogs currently running loose, many of them unlicensed. <roll-eyes>

Can't you just imagine the enforcement on that last prohibition: (from the weekly newspaper) "Deputies were called to investigate a report of two dogs copulating in the 600 block of third street west...." 

On top of everything else, our daughters were attacked by two large loose dogs while they (our daughters, not the loose dogs) were walking their own dogs on leashes before school.  They ran to the SO/jail a couple blocks away to get help but the attacking dogs disappeared.  Later, we spotted the canine perpetrators and called the SO.  They dispatched a deputy who found the dogs but "couldn't catch them without getting hurt."    WTF?  Isn't that what they carry shotguns for ....?

When I raised hell about it, they informed me that I had better not shoot a dog in town.

OTOH, if OUR dogs accidently got out and off our property for 10 seconds (literally), they would run right up to the deputies with their tails wagging and so we would get a ticket (deservedly, technically - but still ridiculous).

Out in the rural countryside, there is NO dog problem - because any problem dogs get shot by landowners before you can say "jack russel terrier". 

Some ranchers shoot all stray/unknown dogs on sight - no questions asked, and SSS.  I don't do that, but I did kill one dog that was killing our cats.

In town, they essentially forbid you to defend yourself, and then fail to provide any protection.

(btw, did I mention that I basically don't like people?  )

Remember, I said not to get me started on this topic

[mak]

The lightbulb went on for me a couple years ago when I saw a little kid get bit in the face by a big mutt tied outside a coffee shop. The owner was standing a couple feet away and the mother, holding her crying child, said, "your dog just bit my baby." The owner looked at the dog and started talking to it like IT was a child; "why did you do that, bad boy"...etc. And there is the whole problem. People get these big dung machines as surrogate children because they are too busy to have real ones. The time, money, and tender loving care lavished on these worthless animals pretty much disgusts me. They did a study of college students asking them if a stranger and their dog was drowning and they could only save one, which would they save. Over half said the dog. People are stupid- that's why you have to have laws. I like working dogs, I like little dogs that keep old people company- the other hundred million or so should be put down. Sorry, just being honest.

[CAnnoneer]

A curious thought: If a dog is a deadly weapon and you get attacked by it, are you justified in shooting the owner in self-defense? If so, under what circumstances?

[Devonai]

Only if the owner is swinging the dog like a mace.

[Sindawe]

And there is the whole problem. People get these big dung machines as surrogate children because they are too busy to have real ones.

Have you considered that there is another motivation for people to get these "big dung machines" rather that kids?  That some people simply don't WANT children, and so don't have them?

The time, money, and tender loving care lavished on these worthless animals pretty much disgusts me.

Same can be said for the time, money and tender loving care lavished on unappriciateive sprogs who not only seek to run & ruin their parents lives, but that of everybody around them?  It disgusts me to no end when I walk through the neighborhoods and see the streets littered with ungodly amounts of plastic kid toys, or I'm out hiking and come across a discarded disposable diaper just off the trail. : puke :

People should mind ALL their animals, four and two legged both.  Want a dog in your life?  Look after it, keep it under control and obedience train it to NOT jump on strangers, don't let it run loose and clean up after the critter.  Want a child in your life?  Look after it and teach it to respect other peoples property.

...the other hundred million or so should be put down. Sorry, just being honest.

Same could be said for all the feral yard-apes running loose.  The ones who leave their trash littering other peoples property, ride their bikes up against other peoples fences, break limbs off of other peoples landscaping and then have an attitude when confronted about their inconsiderate ways.

[Perd Hapley]

Sindawe, I fear this anger reflects a lack of fulfillment.  Is your childless life feeling terribly empty?  Have you looked into adoption? 
  
Do you have any kids?