Author Topic: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?  (Read 16615 times)

mek42

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why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« on: May 30, 2008, 06:10:02 PM »
The general consensus seems to be that the Republican candidate, Senator McCain is not a Conservative.  This is a departure from the traditional recent linkage between the Conservative and Republican parties.  Does the Conservative Party plan on putting forth their own candidate?  If not, why not?

I think the two-party system is bad for America as it limits choices and forces compromises on principals rather than compromises on legislation.  Ironically, being that I personally do not consider myself overly Conservative, I feel that the right, especially the religious right are the people most shafted by the two party system.

LAK

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2008, 07:07:01 PM »
If conservatives totally withdrew their support for the "republican" party it would undoubtably undergo the desired change - or disappear. Instead, they keep watching the game - with their eyes on the footballs kick around between the "republican" team and the "democratic" team. While the team owners fleece them.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2008, 07:57:54 PM »
Quote
This is a departure from the traditional recent linkage between the Conservative and Republican parties.

It's not a departure.  There's long been a divide between the Conservative grass roots and the moderates, and I'm not sure it's that much more pronounced than usual.  Perhaps the era of Reagan, and later of the 94 revolution are the exception rather than the norm. 

If you want to know why we haven't seen a Conservative third party candidate, just look at the Republican primaries.  McCain won because Conservatives were splintered between Romney, Thompson, Paul, Huckabee, Hunter, and so on and so forth.  Many of those guys were still on the ballet when I voted in Missouri, even ones that had pulled out several weeks prior.  I wonder how many Republicans voted for, say, Thompson, not realizing he had thrown in the towel. 
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yesitsloaded

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2008, 08:22:56 PM »
Bob Barr of the libertarian party or Ron Paul of the republican party comes to mind. Are we defining conservative as being a good steward of the public trust, or religious zealotry that wants to force it's morals on others?
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LAK

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2008, 02:29:32 AM »
The ruling party is always going to enforce it's morals - it's religion - or whatever you choose to call it. In one form or another, one way or the other. So it really is down to which you prefer.


Manedwolf

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2008, 05:54:03 AM »
Bob Barr of the libertarian party or Ron Paul of the republican party comes to mind. Are we defining conservative as being a good steward of the public trust, or religious zealotry that wants to force it's morals on others?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(We were talking about Goldwater Conservatives, I believe. AKA, actually politically savvy adults.) smiley

Gowen

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2008, 07:10:28 AM »
why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?

Because GWB and the so called conservative Republicans in Washington so poisoned the field against us.  They threw out who they could in 06 and the rest might go in 08.  Just be happy that obama is enough of a boob that McCain will be elected and we can hopefully elect some real conservatives in the future.  It will take time to rebuild what Regan and Newt started.  We just have to suffer through McCain.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2008, 07:15:32 AM »
Bob Barr of the libertarian party or Ron Paul of the republican party comes to mind. Are we defining conservative as being a good steward of the public trust, or religious zealotry that wants to force it's morals on others?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(We were talking about Goldwater Conservatives, I believe. AKA, actually politically savvy adults.) smiley

You may want to read "Glorious Disaster".

And frankly, if McCain is your image of adulthood, I'd rather never grow up.
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Manedwolf

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2008, 08:24:46 AM »
Bob Barr of the libertarian party or Ron Paul of the republican party comes to mind. Are we defining conservative as being a good steward of the public trust, or religious zealotry that wants to force it's morals on others?

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

(We were talking about Goldwater Conservatives, I believe. AKA, actually politically savvy adults.) smiley

You may want to read "Glorious Disaster".

And frankly, if McCain is your image of adulthood, I'd rather never grow up.

You may want to read Barry Goldwater's The Conscience of a Conservative.

McCain is not an ideal candidate by anyone's standard, but it's the least of all evil. Put down the wookie costume and wear a nice suit, and people will take you seriously.

Fjolnirsson

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2008, 08:29:00 AM »
Quote
Bob Barr of the libertarian party or Ron Paul of the republican party comes to mind.

The same Bob Barr who wants the practice of Wicca banned from the military? Doesn't sound very "Libertarian" to me. But then, that's why I'm not one.
Ron Paul might have had a chance, with just a teensy effort to sound less "extreme". Had he tabled the issue of a Gold Standard ,which nobody was talking about except him, and spoken of issues people were concerned about, things might have been different.

I am saddened and embarrassed that in 2008, the best we have to choose from are McCain, Clinton, and Obama. With Barr as a possible spoiler thrown into the mix.
Hi.

MicroBalrog

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2008, 09:32:30 AM »
Quote from: Manedwolf
You may want to read Barry Goldwater's The Conscience of a Conservative.



Oh, I actually am planning to read it. But if you read any history of the Goldwater Campaign, including "Glorious Disaster" [written by one of the guys who were Goldwater conservatives before Goldwater even knew he was going to run], many of the people who turned out most helpful to Goldwater were 'wackos' by modern standard.

Conservatives have been 'wearing nice costumes' and adopting to the debate language of the status quo for decades now, and it doesn't seem to be working.

You need to raise more hell and less corn.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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grampster

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2008, 12:21:07 PM »
I've been thinking about this for a bit.  I've come to the conclusion that John McCain is a John F. Kennedy Democrat.  I was in high school and college when Kennedy was president.  Kennedy believed in business, national pride, low taxes, smaller government, a strong military and would have drifted toward a bit of social liberalism because of the influence of his family had he lived.

So this time around we have a choice between a JFK Democrat, a strong willed Socialist on the order of FDR and a committed Marxist.  Take yer pick.
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Glock Glockler

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2008, 01:34:00 PM »
Micro,

I find it interesting that being relatively young and living in Israel that you apparently have a better understanding of our internal politics than we do.  Conservatives have been losing ground for a variety of reasons, a lack of hell raising wackos is not one of them.   

Perd Hapley

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2008, 02:59:02 PM »
 grin


But why are we still talking when I answered the question a long time ago? 
Quote

Conservatives were splintered between Romney, Thompson, Paul, Huckabee, Hunter, and so on and so forth.


We're still splintered.  Conservatives are not ready to unite on one candidate. 
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MechAg94

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2008, 05:32:49 PM »
Weren't Ron Paul's guys trying to raise hell?  It didn't seem to work well for them. 

Raising hell only works if you have an audience and you actually have a coherent message.  Oh wait, that is sort of like normal politics isn't it? 
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Glock Glockler

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2008, 06:34:17 PM »
Want to know something crazy?  Many Ron Paul supporters I know are now planning on voting for Obama since it's apparent that Paul isn't going anywhere. 

MicroBalrog

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2008, 07:11:54 PM »
Micro,

I find it interesting that being relatively young and living in Israel that you apparently have a better understanding of our internal politics than we do.  Conservatives have been losing ground for a variety of reasons, a lack of hell raising wackos is not one of them.   

I find it interesting that you criticize my views based on my identity, rather than their content.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Glock Glockler

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2008, 07:44:25 PM »
I have criticized their content extensively, this is what you don't seem to get: we live here, we know what's going on, we also know what we like and what we don't.  Companies will often do all kinds of research to find out what their target market wants so that they can better market to them, on this board alone you have quite a few intelligent people who have an enormous amount of experience regarding our internal politics yet instead of listening to us you'd rather tell us what the weather is in our backyard. 

The weird thing is that the FSPers who've alienated people here do the same thing!  Instead of finding out what NH people are frustrated with and working with that they just do what makes them feel good and important.  You try having a naked pretest here and you're just going to piss us off, if you knock on my door and speak to me like an adult I'll hear what you have to say and you might get aid from me if you've got a good cause, and that's not an uncommon attitude among New Englanders.

If you actually want the FSP to suceed the first thing needed to be done is to change the voting laws, we've had quite a bit of fraud up here with people voting more than once and even people coming up from other states to vote in our election.  What good is moving people here to affect the voting block if others can waltz in and make every vote irrelevant?

If you really want to know at least one reason why Conservatives have lost ground check out "The Art of Political War" by David Horowitz.

Manedwolf

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2008, 07:47:59 PM »
Micro,

I find it interesting that being relatively young and living in Israel that you apparently have a better understanding of our internal politics than we do.  Conservatives have been losing ground for a variety of reasons, a lack of hell raising wackos is not one of them.   

I find it interesting that you criticize my views based on my identity, rather than their content.

I think what he's saying is that this is as if we, over here in America, were talking with "authority" about the hows and whys of internal politics of Kadima vs. Likud and the like.

Which we can't. Because we don't know what the sentiment is there, because we don't live there.

The weird thing is that the FSPers who've alienated people here do the same thing!  Instead of finding out what NH people are frustrated with and working with that they just do what makes them feel good and important. 

That is exactly what they've done. The only thing that NH people are frustated with...is the free staters. Old-style New Englanders HATE pushy carpetbaggers, and the FSP people just won't get a clue about that. Unless your family has been in New England for centuries, you're a newcomer, which is fine, everyone will be friendly as long as you respect the traditions and culture of the place. Making a scene and being obnoxious, pushy and loud in public is not part of that culture. Neither is telling the longtime residents that they're wrong, and that your group of newcomers is going to change things. That is what the FSP did, and that's why they are being rejected. They need to move on to someplace like Wyoming, where they can be alone.

MicroBalrog

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2008, 11:31:11 PM »
Why are you so fixated on my FSP membership? grin

Anyhow, long post:

MicroBalrog Disclaimer: This post is being written away from my home, as such I have no access to my books, and am unable to provide detailed bibliographical reference. Bear with me, please.

* * *

Consdier, if you will, the following. The conservative movement can be subdivided  for the purposes of my argument  into what the New York Times would call 'creedal conservatives' and 'mindset conservatives. The mindset conservatives would be best described by pointing to Edmund Burke's  diatribe against the French Revolution  i.e., their key opposition to social-democrats or Progressive does not stem from some principled opposition to Big Government, or to secularism, but rather from their opposition to radical change.

In the modern era, these people are often represented by neoconservatives. By the term 'neoconservative' I do not mean 'anyone who disagrees with me', as some people are wont to, but rather, I direct you to Irving Kristol's book on Neo-Conservatism. Kristol speicifically advises that conservatism, as he sees it, is not to be entrapped by some 'ideological' opposition to big government, and rather, moderation is to be pursued  in this venue. Above all, remember Burke [whom Kristol references very fondly]: RADICAL CHANGE BAAD!

On the other hand, you have the people who want particular change  the evangelicals, the libertarians, and whoever else. Note that  libertarians are conservatives no matter how some of them bitch and moan and try to pretend they're a separate movement. The libertarians and evangelicals and Reaganites are all separated from the social-democrats by virtue of believing that capitalism is better than socialism, that human beings are individually responsible for moral choices, and that good and evil are not subjective. They differ of course on the extent of the policies they puruse. But the point is, none of these people are 'conservatives' in the sense that they oppose radical change. In fact, technically speaking  and as Reagan pointed out  the people who want to preserve the welfare state are the Tories. The Reaganites, and the evangelicals, and the libertarians, are revolutionaries.[A useful book on this is Exit With Honor: The Life and Presidency of Ronald Reagan].

The mindset conservatives (whom I'll call Burke conservatives from now on) have very often won primaries and elections, among other things, by promising the creedal conservatives that they're either better than the other guy [If you don't vote for McCain, Obama will win and take all of your guns!] or that they are a 'way to get what you want, slower'.

Newsflash: It has not worked.

The current status-quo is not going away. The Burke conservatives LOVE the status-quo. The Obamaniacs are going to further the status-quo, and possibly make it slightly* worse

[* During the reign of President Johnson, stuff like guaranteed income (putting everybody on welfare) was seriously discussed in Congress. Reading Man versus Welfare State, one can get really surprised at how left-wing Johnson and the Democrats were then.]

The first thing you need to do to go anywhere is to realize that people like John McCain are NOT like you. They're not 'people just like you, but much more moderate'. They operate on a completely different mindset and set of ideas.

The system where everybody wears suits and ties, speaks only within the allowed frame of debate (enforce existing laws vs. add more laws, cut taxes slightly vs. increase taxes, and so on) benefits 'Da System' and those people who are in charge of it (I don't believe in conspiracies, but I do believe that, 'in every system of government, an olygarchy lurks behind th facade').

You want freedom? Do you SERIOUSLY want freedom or do you just want to avoid Obama eating your children? If B, let me remind you that you can't win every election. You avoided having your nightmare candidate win in 2000, and in 2004, and maybe you're going to avoid having your nightmare candidate win in 2008. Maybe Obama really is the guy who will eat your kids, but seriously, unless you change the system all around, you can't win every single time.

Eventually an unAmerican candidate is going to win and REALLY eat your kids. Unless you destroy the Welfare State first, that is.

And as we demonstrated above, you can't do that by wearing a suit and a tie and voting every few years.

People on these forums argue, repeatedly, that the leftists, and especially Obama, hate America  not in the sense that they want to blow up the White House and the Pentagon, but in the sense that they hate everything America is actually about. Forever do the very people who are arguing against me on this thread argue, also, that the leftists are 'at war with America.'

Very well, then. Act like it. Protest. Scream. Subscribe to The American Conservative. You are the people who claim you're at war, aren't you?

Pass to the right. Sign for your placard here.

No, the wookie-suits only come in two sizes, soldier  too big and too small.

[I had the vision of a giant, military-like, depot, where Manedwolf and Fistful sign for their wookie-suits. The mental image was too goddamn awesome to pass up.]
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MicroBalrog

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2008, 11:37:29 PM »
P.S. I do not think that ACTUAL, literal screaming and wookie suits are necessarily constructive. However, that said,  I still love the mental image of a giant R-LOVE-ution depot where Glockler, Maned, and Fistful sign for said suits.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Tallpine

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2008, 06:32:35 AM »
Quote
Put down the wookie costume and wear a nice suit, and people will take you seriously.

I for one am getting really sick of the personal attacks against people you (plural - not just MW) disagree with  angry
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Manedwolf

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2008, 06:44:38 AM »
Quote
Put down the wookie costume and wear a nice suit, and people will take you seriously.

I for one am getting really sick of the personal attacks against people you (plural - not just MW) disagree with  angry

It's a metaphor for the ineffectual and local-alienating methods they've chosen here, which includes yelling in public, deliberately getting arrested and hassling the police. And, to be honest, beclowning themselves. Nobody takes them seriously.

yesitsloaded

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2008, 04:55:56 PM »
How did I miss out on the Wookie suit opportunity when my first post ever was about hewhoshallnotbenamedlestthegovernmentshrinkandactuallydoproductivethingslikeguardtheborder.
I can haz nukular banstiks ? Say no to furries, yes to people.

mek42

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Re: why doesn't the Conservative Party put forth a candidate?
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2008, 02:08:57 PM »
As an aside, but related to topic, who was the Conservative gentleman who recently passed away?  I heard his (pre-death, obviously) interview aired on NPR recently and was thinking it would be good to read more about him and his thoughts.

Back to topic, if conservatives aren't ready and/or willing to do what it takes to get behind someone, even as a third party, isn't it time to stop whining?  Kind of a do-your-business or get off the pot moment?

If there was a Conservative person on the ballot with no other party affiliations I might vote for them just to give the Rs and Ds a wake up call that the people need to be listened to.