British exit of EU guesses

[Perd Hapley]

Thread on reddit for those interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/4pks0a/uk_citizens_vote_to_leave_the_european_union/
Also, if you click on the "Other discussions" on the top, you'll find all the other subreddits where the same link was posted, and the discussion in that subreddit. Currently /r/news is at around 11k posts, and /r/worldnews is at around 12k posts.

Should have give us boatymcboatface

I just added my yes vote, so I can say I called it. 

[Perd Hapley]

http://imgur.com/a/mpXut

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/06/23/brexit-britain-votes-trump-hillary-obama/

[HankB]

. . . It's about sovereignty, nationalism.

I was watching Varney's show on FBN last night, and this was mentioned. John Bolton was happy with the result, and some other talking head mentioned that the Brits would rather be governed by their own parliament rather than a bunch of bureaucrats and politicians they didn't knowin Brussels.

Oh, and mention was made in passing of a recent ruled handed down by the EU (in the name of controlling climate change) which outlawed the electric teapots and toasters used in most British homes. 

[De Selby]

From an article I just read:

It's about sovereignty, nationalism.

It's a lot like Trump actually - people with different values but who share a consciousness of how global governance is rigged in favour of state-corporate financiers.

It's really farcical to read all these arguments about economic catastrophe, when the EU has basically an entire generation unemployed and before the brexit, was mostly talking about how to deprive those people of any benefits that might offset the damage big finance has done to their countries.

If the EU is so economically awesome why is half of Europe being told to cut all payments to their people in order to pay back banks?  Why is unemployment ranging up on a quarter of the population?

It's popular to blame those problems on welfare socialists, but in fact the cause is the hard line Neo-liberalism of the EU.  Their policies are hugely unpopular, which is why they need the unaccountable and mercurial EU machinery to keep it running.

[Perd Hapley]

Uh, you realise that the people most upset by this are the economic conservatives, right???

UK socialists have been the most consistent and ardent supporters of the brexit.

OK, but...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/8858823/Half-of-Conservative-MPs-want-to-pull-out-of-the-EU.html

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/04/05/the-conservative-party-split-on-brexit/

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21701257-results-paint-picture-angry-country-divided-class-age-and-region-country-divided

David Cameron, the Conservative prime minister, only agreed to hold this referendum in 2013 in a moment of political weakness before the most recent general election, as his own members panicked about the threat of UKIP and agitated for a chance to vote on a European Union that most rank-and-file Conservatives dislike or actively loathe. Mr Cameron is no instinctive lover of the EU and struggled to make a positive case for continued membership. Having offered unrealisable promises to reduce net immigration into Britain to tens of thousands a year, he was unable to defend the free movement of workers and people that is one of the EU’s founding pillars.

http://iainmacwhirter2.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-do-tories-hate-europe-so-much.html

[wmenorr67]

Does this now spell the end of the EU?

[De Selby]

OK, but...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/8858823/Half-of-Conservative-MPs-want-to-pull-out-of-the-EU.html

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/04/05/the-conservative-party-split-on-brexit/

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21701257-results-paint-picture-angry-country-divided-class-age-and-region-country-divided

http://iainmacwhirter2.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-do-tories-hate-europe-so-much.html

I hate to be pendatic, but that's the name of a party, not a description of ideologies of its members.

[RoadKingLarry]

Does this now spell the end of the EU?

Probably not, the elitist EU French will just get snootier, the Spanish will get more arrogant and the Germans more condescending towards the dumb Brits who were so stupid as to propose to abandon the great and powerful EU.
Hell I've already heard talk of the UK having another referendum vote to cancel out the one they just had.

[Viking]

Marine Le Pen, leader of Front National in France, is calling for a French referendum on whether to stay in the EU.

[Ben]

Marine Le Pen, leader of Front National in France, is calling for a French referendum on whether to stay in the EU.

Yeah, my understanding is that France is just as frustrated with the EU as the UK is, and just as sick of the micromanagement down to what household goods they can buy. Once some busybody in Brussels tells them what wine they can drink, that might be the tipping point. 

[brimic]

Yup.  the lefty meltdown is truly epic already - just a quick skim of /r/news on reddit is pretty funny...  

"Britain has made the biggest mistake ever!! it's the end!!!!"

"Hey, how about we wait and see what actually happens?"

"F--- YOU!!!  IT'S THE END!!!!!"

I noticed the same on failbook. The ones seeming to scream the loudest are of the same big government/globalist demographics that we have in the US. 

[roo_ster]

It's a lot like Trump actually - people with different values but who share a consciousness of how global governance is rigged in favour of state-corporate financiers.

IOW, corporatism.  

Too many conservatives, libertarians, and GOP-dwellers do not understand that globalist corporations are also enemies of freedom, just as is an overweening state.  They are of a part with NGOs, and other globalist institutions with zero allegiance to their own nation.  Because freedom, thus far, has only been able to exist in the nation-state.  And freedom the way we supposedly like it, as found in the founding documents & such, only found in some few NW-european nation-states and their former colonies.

I hate to be pendatic, but that's the name of a party, not a description of ideologies of its members.

Crazy-talk, that.  No way a party with the names "Republican" or "Democrat" would endorse militaristic and corporatist globetrotting--along with similarly self-serving domestic policy--in service to their donors, thus each being more an "Imperialist Co-Party."

https://www.amazon.com/Republic-Not-Empire-Reclaiming-Americas/dp/0895261596

[Perd Hapley]

I hate to be pendatic, but that's the name of a party, not a description of ideologies of its members.

Then don't be. By whatever name one calls it, nationalism and nativism are more right than left.

I was just providing some counterpoint to what you said about "economic conservatives." I trust it is widely understood that Euroscepticism has long been the preserve of small-c conservatives. Interesting that socialists have made common cause with them.

[brimic]

IOW, corporatism. 

Too many conservatives, libertarians, and GOP-dwellers do not understand that globalist corporations are also enemies of freedom, just as is an overweening state.  They are of a part with NGOs, and other globalist institutions with zero allegiance to their own nation.  Because freedom, thus far, has only been able to exist in the nation-state.  And freedom the way we supposedly like it, as found in the founding documents & such, only found in some few NW-european nation-states and their former colonies.

I've become so cynical that I'm to the point of wanting to discourage my kids from attending Universities and instead go to tech schools, learn a trade or marketable skill and start their own businesses....
It used to be that a lot of people coming out of high school wanted to work for the Big Corporations as a status/upward mobility thing, I, and I'm guessing a lot of others, are at the point that they see big corporations as fascist organizations that push their own social/economic/progressive/globalist agenda that fall well outside of what are the majority values of a representative republic.

[roo_ster]

I've become so cynical that I'm to the point of wanting to discourage my kids from attending Universities and instead go to tech schools, learn a trade or marketable skill and start their own businesses....
It used to be that a lot of people coming out of high school wanted to work for the Big Corporations as a status/upward mobility thing, I, and I'm guessing a lot of others, are at the point that they see big corporations as fascist organizations that push their own social/economic/progressive/globalist agenda that fall well outside of what are the majority values of a representative republic.

The deal wife and I are contemplating with our kiddos:
1. Pay for training in a trade or cert or whatnot after HS.
2. If they want college after that (in a remunerative course of study), help them as they also work their trade to help themselves.
3. If they are happy without college, capital investment in their business when they decide to strike out on their own.

The objective being their independence rather than a credential.

All this after some serious talk, which began as soon as they were able to understand it, about how your training/education will have a great impact on where and how you live.  Want to live in BFE on land with critters in a rural setting?  A bachelors in electrical engineering is less likely to find you there than, say, something leading to an independent business. 

I have known plenty of folk who managed to make it this way.  And a couple were good friends who were mechanics while getting engineering degrees. 

[brimic]

The deal wife and I are contemplating with our kiddos:
1. Pay for training in a trade or cert or whatnot after HS.
2. If they want college after that (in a remunerative course of study), help them as they also work their trade to help themselves.
3. If they are happy without college, capital investment in their business when they decide to strike out on their own.

The objective being their independence rather than a credential.

All this after some serious talk, which began as soon as they were able to understand it, about how your training/education will have a great impact on where and how you live.  Want to live in BFE on land with critters in a rural setting?  A bachelors in electrical engineering is less likely to find you there than, say, something leading to an independent business. 

I have known plenty of folk who managed to make it this way.  And a couple were good friends who were mechanics while getting engineering degrees. 

That is pretty much my thought process, bolded part being the ultimate goal.

[Ron]

I certainly owe the Brits an apology and do apologize.

My cynicism was apparently misplaced. It seemed improbable to me that they still had the stones to walk away from the globalists.

[roo_ster]

I certainly owe the Brits an apology and do apologize.

My cynicism was apparently misplaced. It seemed improbable to me that they still had the stones to walk away from the globalists.

But will they (and we) have the stones to stone the globalists?  As I suspect power and status and influence will not easily be given up by the globalists.

[HeroHog]

Can we start UNEXIT now and get the US out of the UN and the UN out of the US? Please?

[Balog]

IOW, corporatism.  

Too many conservatives, libertarians, and GOP-dwellers do not understand that globalist corporations are also enemies of freedom, just as is an overweening state.  They are of a part with NGOs, and other globalist institutions with zero allegiance to their own nation.  Because freedom, thus far, has only been able to exist in the nation-state.

We disagree about much, but this is spot on.

[Balog]

Then don't be. By whatever name one calls it, nationalism and nativism are more right than left.

That's silly. Left v right as we use it in America does not relate to nationalism and nativism, even if our particular parties in America have staked out positions on it. Plenty of countries where the folks who want state control of business are also nativist and nationalist.

[Balog]

I've become so cynical that I'm to the point of wanting to discourage my kids from attending Universities and instead go to tech schools, learn a trade or marketable skill and start their own businesses....
It used to be that a lot of people coming out of high school wanted to work for the Big Corporations as a status/upward mobility thing, I, and I'm guessing a lot of others, are at the point that they see big corporations as fascist organizations that push their own social/economic/progressive/globalist agenda that fall well outside of what are the majority values of a representative republic.

No need to start your own business and take on that risk/liability/headache. Sprinkler fitters around here make a minimum of $50/hour upon completion of a four year apprenticeship and passing the journeyman test. If they fail it then they stay as apprentices making $40/hour. Six figures a year before overtime, no need to deal with payroll and personnel management and all the other business hassles.

[brimic]

No need to start your own business and take on that risk/liability/headache. Sprinkler fitters around here make a minimum of $50/hour upon completion of a four year apprenticeship and passing the journeyman test. If they fail it then they stay as apprentices making $40/hour. Six figures a year before overtime, no need to deal with payroll and personnel management and all the other business hassles.

Electricians and plumbers don't do so bad either, and will be needed everywhere that there is civilization.

[TechMan]

Electricians and plumbers don't do so bad either, and will be needed everywhere that there is civilization.

And only getting better, since more and more of them are retiring.

[Perd Hapley]

That's silly. Left v right as we use it in America does not relate to nationalism and nativism...

I wasn't talking only about America, but in any context, I disagree. If right or left mean anything, I'm comfortable saying that rightists (anywhere) are more likely to skew nationalist and/or nativist. I'm pretty certain that's true in America. Of course, it also depends on how one defines the two n-words, there.

Plenty of countries where the folks who want state control of business are also nativist and nationalist.

OK