Post by: telewinz on December 27, 2005, 03:02:22 PM
Post by: Guest on December 27, 2005, 03:23:38 PM
Post by: bratch on December 27, 2005, 03:30:57 PM
Best of luck with your son.
Post by: 280plus on December 27, 2005, 03:37:30 PM
Just my $0.02
Post by: telewinz on December 27, 2005, 04:38:37 PM
That's pretty much what I have been doing and if it were anyone but my son....I just don't get that good, warm feeling inside anymore. I'm disappointed in his weakness/behavior and he feels I "bailed-out" on him, that hurts. I told him I'd help him in his program (NOT paying his irresponsible debts) but hence forth unless it's a legitimate expense (he manipulates) he'll have to learn the hard way through the consequences of his own deliberate poor judgement. I had really hoped to avoid all this pain for him and me, I hope his mother slipping him money on the QT doesn't undermine me. I feel this will end up in a positive manner for him but the emotional cost is very high for me. I (and others I respect) feel I'm doing the right thing but I feel like I'm standing on a mountain top all alone. That he may understand 20 years from now (when I'm dead) gives little comfort. Thanks for the wisdom. I'm still open minded and searching (for relief?).
Post by: Felonious Monk/Fignozzle on December 27, 2005, 05:32:32 PM
In the mean time, a cautionary tale:
My brother is 28 years old. The baby of 4 kids, came along late in my parents' life and was treated to financial opulence the likes of which none of the other 3 kids saw.
He did get 2 different full ride college baseball scholarships. Quit the first one, beat up the coach at the second one.
Graduated from school 4 years ago, has never held a job more than a few months at best and usually survives by selling drugs. Has at least 2 children by young women he's shacked up with, and has now married the second one (here's hoping it "takes").
Mom and Dad (in their early '70's now) STILL continue to give him money, pay auto insurance, and so on.
Let him learn NOW-- tough love!
You'll be glad you did.
Fig
Post by: Jamisjockey on December 27, 2005, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: Barbara
Be nice to him but don't pay his bills and don't let him guilt you into do it. He's 23, not 13. Time to deal with his own consequences.
Amen.Encourage him to declare bankruptcy and go into the military, too.
Post by: bratch on December 27, 2005, 08:21:11 PM
Quote
First off I'm HOPING you meant $60K not $60M.
M is the Roman numeral for 1000. I know it is comonly used in the oil industry and I'll assume other industries as well. NAtural gas is sold by the MBTU or 1000 BTU and money is written $60M for $60000.So $60M=$60K just a diferent system.
Once again good luck with your son.
Post by: jefnvk on December 27, 2005, 09:19:16 PM
Don't bail him out.
If he wants help figuring out how to get this settled, help him. But don't settle it for him.
I'll also tell you what worked for me. Don't keep offering to get him out of trouble. Wait until he realizes the problems he has, and asks for help. None of those money/life talks really sinked in until it finally dawned on me what was happening, I always thought people were trying to pinch a penny here or there. Although, I will say that it wasn't as bad in the situtation he sounds like he is in, my debt was measured in a few hundred dollars.
Post by: telewinz on December 27, 2005, 11:19:03 PM
Post by: 280plus on December 28, 2005, 01:13:41 AM
Quote
So $60M=$60K just a diferent system.
New one on me... 
I think we're all talking about what "they" call "tough love". He's going to have to sink or swim and you're going to have to be tough enough to let it happen. Too many people destroy their own lives trying to prevent their kids (or spouses) from destroying theirs.
One motto I've developed over the years is that:
"You can talk, rant and rave till you're blue in the face but if the person you're trying to help doesn't want to help themselves you are wasting your breath."
Try not to favor one over the other. That will only breed resentment between them. I've seen that too.
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on December 28, 2005, 03:11:28 AM
Quote from: jefnvk
I'll give you some advice from the kid's view.
Don't bail him out.
If he wants help figuring out how to get this settled, help him. But don't settle it for him.
I'll also tell you what worked for me. Don't keep offering to get him out of trouble. Wait until he realizes the problems he has, and asks for help. None of those money/life talks really sinked in until it finally dawned on me what was happening, I always thought people were trying to pinch a penny here or there. Although, I will say that it wasn't as bad in the situtation he sounds like he is in, my debt was measured in a few hundred dollars.
+1. I wasn't 60m in debt, but was well on my way. Looking back (I'm now 32 and still make some mistakes), the best advice is that if he THINKS he is an adult, then treat him like one. It will (I'm sure) be tough, but there will be a respect later.Don't bail him out.
If he wants help figuring out how to get this settled, help him. But don't settle it for him.
I'll also tell you what worked for me. Don't keep offering to get him out of trouble. Wait until he realizes the problems he has, and asks for help. None of those money/life talks really sinked in until it finally dawned on me what was happening, I always thought people were trying to pinch a penny here or there. Although, I will say that it wasn't as bad in the situtation he sounds like he is in, my debt was measured in a few hundred dollars.
Think of him as a 6 month old*, of course he likes mommy more, everytime he cries and throws a temper tantrum, he get the proverbial piece of candy.
* I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT YOU SON IS A 6 MONTH OLD, I AM JUST GIVING A MORE CUT AND DRY EXAMPLE TO MAKE A POINT.
----------------------------------
(FWIW---> M= 1,000 in the printing world to. When I read a newspaper I ALWAYS get confused as to what THEIR M equals...)
Post by: Guest on December 28, 2005, 03:22:55 AM
I went through a lot of the same nonsense at his age. I didnt get in as deeply in debt as he did, and I always had a weird sort of pride thing where I didnt ask for help even when I probably needed it. Despite that, i still really didnt get along with my dad, and I continued to make the same sort of mistakes over and over again. At 26 I now have a better relationship with my father than I ever had in the past, we actually like spending time together and I give him a call every now and then. I just needed my space to screw up and figure out what made me tick, you kid probably needs the same thing.
Every single person I know was *deeply* messed up in their early-to-mid 20s. Our society pretty much sets people up for this as its the first time they are really left to their own devices. I would be lying if I said I was completely together, but I think that i have learned enough to say that he will eventually get it together in one way or another.
Post by: Art Eatman on December 28, 2005, 03:56:12 AM
It's natural to love a kid and want to help. It's also natural to not LIKE a kid, certainly on a short-term basis. Even your kid has to earn your respect, 'cause respect is only earned.
Art
Post by: bermbuster on December 28, 2005, 03:59:15 AM
Quote from: Barbara
Be nice to him but don't pay his bills and don't let him guilt you into do it. He's 23, not 13. Time to deal with his own consequences.
Ditto.
Post by: SADShooter on December 28, 2005, 04:27:28 AM
So, I hope that as your son matures, he will understand that the mistakes were his to make, and he will come to appreciate your philosophy and behavior as his father not as punishment or neglect, but the love you expressed as best you could.
Post by: The Rabbi on December 28, 2005, 05:24:46 AM
I'll add that you need to get on the same page with your wife over this. If she's the "soft touch" then your son will simply by-pass you all the time and go straight to mom.
Sometimes we hurt our kids by trying to help them.
Post by: grampster on December 28, 2005, 06:24:15 AM
Kids are a roller coaster ride. Some of us are blessed with a flat track, but the majority of us, if the truth were known, are on a hair raising ride till the day we die.
We love 'em till the day we die. We celebrate their success and agonize over their defeats.
Good luck. I have no advice. What will be, will be and you have no control over it.
He's rolling the dice and you are the table they bounce around on.
Post by: Chris on December 28, 2005, 06:59:49 AM
A wise man told me that when a child is young, he steps on your toes. When the child gets older, he often steps on your heart. You're living that, I'm sorry to say.
Post by: grampster on December 28, 2005, 09:40:21 AM
Your last paragraph says in two sentences what I was trying to say in several paragraphs. Very clear, very true!
Post by: K Frame on December 28, 2005, 10:45:14 AM
Your relationship will never really be the same, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, given what you've recounted.
Post by: telewinz on December 28, 2005, 01:56:35 PM
"I'll add that you need to get on the same page with your wife over this. If she's the "soft touch" then your son will simply by-pass you all the time and go straight to mom."
Regrettably I've had to live with this "handicap" for years, their is no "fix" short of a divorce.
"he truly meant a roof and a meal. All else was my responsibility, from putting gas in the tank of my car, to insurance payments, to whatever other expenses I had. Basically, Dad was a safety net to keep me off the streets and from going hungry."
Your Dad and I could have been best friends.
"Chances are you won't lose him."
True but I had always hoped that we would be friends, that we would enjoy each others company and respect each other.
Post by: 280plus on December 28, 2005, 03:01:44 PM
Quote
Regrettably I've had to live with this "handicap" for years, their is no "fix" short of a divorce.
Believe me, a divorce wouldn't even work. Chance are at that point she'd REVEL in undermining your authority. Try your best to make her understand that she's not helping him. He needs a consistent united front from both parents.
Post by: K Frame on December 28, 2005, 03:03:01 PM
There's no saying you won't be.
There's an old saying by Mark Twain...
"When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."
Sounds like that's what you're hitting right now, only the age cycle has been extended somewhat.
Ultimately, he's got to make his own decisions, and his own mistakes, and live by their results. It sounds like he's experiencing that right now, full force, for the first time, and it's kind of unsettling for him. He may even resent you somewhat, not for being there for him, but because you're at the point where you can be. Complex and confusing.
Don't lose hope, but don't hold out unrealistic expectations, either. Realize that the view you have of your hopes for your relationship may take years to develop, and may develop totally differently from what you expect.
As an aside, it's funny, but I got into a minor fight with my parents this weekend over money. They wanted to give me some to help me out with some costs that I'm having to defer because of a major expense I had for my pet's health. I refused to take the money. When I moved out on my own after college, I made the decision that I was never going to dip back into the parents in the way that my older, and a LOT more selfish, brother has repeatedly done over the years.
Post by: 280plus on December 29, 2005, 02:31:32 AM
I know exactly what you're feeling. You want the very best for them and you know the track they are on will not get that for them. And they won't listen to you. Very frustrating.
I watched mine blow scholarships to a very good school. His GPA for his second semester was 0.00. I tried to advise him throughout the whole ordeal. He said ,"Yea, yea, yea,,," but in the end he didn't listen. Smart kid too, he doesn't yet realize what he's wasted. In a way it's ok though. I have been squirreling away $ for education forever and they know about it. The deal with both my kids was, "It's for education. If you don't use it, I will." The other one is 19, I've been on his ass to get into the local Community College. He says, "Yea. yea, yea." but it ain't happening as far as I can see. I may get back in school yet. Maybe I'll go to Yale. My grandfather always wanted me to go to Yale. I joined the Navy.
Post by: Guest on December 29, 2005, 08:12:44 AM
Quote from: JamisJockey
Quote from: Barbara
Be nice to him but don't pay his bills and don't let him guilt you into do it. He's 23, not 13. Time to deal with his own consequences.
Amen.Encourage him to declare bankruptcy and go into the military, too.
Post by: telewinz on December 29, 2005, 01:41:44 PM
It has to be caused by the fluoridation of our drinking water. It certainly isn't caused by a poor example or "bad luck"!
"Encourage him to declare bankruptcy and go into the military, too."
I signed the loans too. As for joining the military...We both hope so.
Post by: Skeptic on December 29, 2005, 01:59:56 PM
Good luck.
Post by: grampster on December 29, 2005, 03:26:08 PM
It has to be the water. 7 years in LE and 37 in business dealing with families, I have seen it all. Good families = bad kid. Bad families = good kid and every variation that is possible.
Suck it up, provide the roof and meal gig. That was good advice. Regarding you and swmbo being on the same page? Sigh....I wish I could encourage you there. But women and kids are a whole 'nother plane of existence that dad's don't inhabit. Best you can hope for is to gently express your game plan, stick to it, and maybe she'll come around. You ain't gonna make any demands on her in that regard that will be effective.
Post by: telewinz on December 31, 2005, 05:41:17 AM
Post by: 280plus on December 31, 2005, 07:10:18 AM
Post by: TheWalkinDude on September 19, 2014, 03:44:03 PM
My father passed on almost 4 years ago, suicide with a snub-nose .38.
Long story short, yes I *expletive deleted*ed up in college by spending beyond my means. That was absolutely due to an entitlement mentality that because all the rich kids could have fun, why couldn't I.
The *expletive deleted*ck-up my father referred to was me losing my ROTC scholarship my senior year because I failed the 2 mile run while sick with the flu. The "technical" error that my father referred to was that it was my first and only mistake, and even the military has to work with you to resolve the problem before cutting ties. So yes, I was reinstated, passed my run just fine and served with honor and distinction as an Army officer, even serving in those desert countries so many read about.
And while I love my father, my entire life ( I was the oldest son and first born) was spent trying to live up to his impossible standards. My father didn't mention how every Sunday after Church (he would force me to go and stay at home and play with his guns) he would apologize for all the cruel things he had said during the week and swore he would never do them again, only to attack me hours later. My father was so loving, that when I was 7, he took the dog they had got me for my birthday present and walked it into the garage with one of his rifles and told me he was going to shoot my dog. How hilarious it must have been to listen to your son cry and bang on the door begging his father not to shoot his dog! Dad thought it was hysterical. 25 years later I'm still trying to figure out the joke.
What my father didn't mention is that his attention was so focused on me that he completely neglected his other Son (who was strangely absent from this post) who is now 30, still lives at home with my mother and has never held a full time job in his life. Not to mention his 3 DUIs and the fact we have to get special permission for him to be released from jail to attend my father's funeral. Maybe if dad had been more worried about being a parent and not a friend, he wouldn't have argued with mom every time my brother stole $20 that they couldn't prove which child stole the money. One time the four of us (Mom, Dad, Sister and I) returned from a family outing to find the lock box they kept their money in pried open while only my brother was home. Yet that wasn't proof enough that my brother was the culprit. Just as my father did nothing after my brother started drinking at 13 and one time was absent from school for 45 days straight.
Maybe, just maybe instead of bitching on the internet about me (the one who made Captain, has a bronze star and now works for a Fortune 500) he had focused on my brother's truly deplorable behavior, my brother wouldn't be a 30 year old waste of space.
I don't want you to think I harbor resentment for my father. I don't. I love him with all my heart and would do anything if I could bring him back.
Yes, I acknowledge my father helped me. He did hand me $20 here and there. But he never paid a dime for my college. I had the ROTC scholarship with stipend and had loans that my mother cosigned (Dad told me what a disappointment I was when ROTC kicked me out and openly mocked me in front of family and friends alike - that's why our relationship was strained when he wrote this) and that I have entirely paid off on my own.
So to my point, there are always two sides to a story. I understand my father used this forum to vent like any other human. Hell, I don't even know if this reply will go through. I only found it googling my father's user name to see what he may have posted online. But here's the kicker and why I swear I will be more patient with my son....
I always knew my father and grandfather had a falling out. But I didn't know the details until my uncle told the story after my father passed. My grandfather DID pay for my dad to goto college. My grandfather had served in WW2 and had been a steel worker after the war. So he understood how important an education can be. My uncle and aunt went to college (paid for by my grandfather) and did well. My father on the other hand didn't do well in college. And while I may have been an idiot who wracked up $20k in debt, I always did what was necessary to get by. I had a job since I was 16 and my father never had to encourage me, in fact he stopped me from getting a paper route when I was younger because "it didn't pay enough for the work." But dad failed out of college and chose to enlist in 1972. Grandfather didn't like that and encouraged Dad to apply himself and get a degree. Dad was determined to join the Army, and grandfather left him saying "If you want to be a loser all of your life, I won't stop you." Those same words were said to me.
My point is try to listen and understand the other person's viewpoint. Maybe you're not the nice guy you think you are. Maybe your son is a *expletive deleted*ck up. But pick up the phone and have a conversation. And remember, words have power and like a bullet, they can't be taken back once they're out.
Post by: Jocassee on September 19, 2014, 04:29:57 PM
Thank you for coming back and setting the record straight, and best of luck as you go forward.
Out of curiosity, how did you find this post?
Post by: TheWalkinDude on September 19, 2014, 04:45:18 PM
Add this to the list of object lessons in life I've learned from APS.
Thank you for coming back and setting the record straight, and best of luck as you go forward.
Out of curiosity, how did you find this post?
I knew dad's user name and googled it today to see what came up. I remember him loving the forum the high road and the firing line (no idea if those are active, what I saw was archived) and reading through his posts I found this one.
Don't worry though, dad taught me well and I inherited all 50+ guns when he passed. They're in good hands.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on September 19, 2014, 04:51:39 PM
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Post by: Balog on September 19, 2014, 04:56:28 PM
Also, yet more proof that the most interesting threads/posts start with people stumbling across APS on google.
Post by: grampster on September 19, 2014, 04:56:45 PM
Hope you stick around, sir. I think you would bring value to this room. It is not often we are blessed with a follow up to a rather personal reach out by a member.
Post by: Scout26 on September 19, 2014, 05:27:06 PM
I am truly sorry for the loss of your father. I can tell he loved you greatly.
Post by: Fitz on September 19, 2014, 07:10:09 PM
Maybe this is closure for me, or maybe just my ego. But I'm the son my father wrote about almost 10 years ago.
My father passed on almost 4 years ago, suicide with a snub-nose .38.
Long story short, yes I *expletive deleted*ed up in college by spending beyond my means. That was absolutely due to an entitlement mentality that because all the rich kids could have fun, why couldn't I.
The *expletive deleted* ck-up my father referred to was me losing my ROTC scholarship my senior year because I failed the 2 mile run while sick with the flu. The "technical" error that my father referred to was that it was my first and only mistake, and even the military has to work with you to resolve the problem before cutting ties. So yes, I was reinstated, passed my run just fine and served with honor and distinction as an Army officer, even serving in those desert countries so many read about.
And while I love my father, my entire life ( I was the oldest son and first born) was spent trying to live up to his impossible standards. My father didn't mention how every Sunday after Church (he would force me to go and stay at home and play with his guns) he would apologize for all the cruel things he had said during the week and swore he would never do them again, only to attack me hours later. My father was so loving, that when I was 7, he took the dog they had got me for my birthday present and walked it into the garage with one of his rifles and told me he was going to shoot my dog. How hilarious it must have been to listen to your son cry and bang on the door begging his father not to shoot his dog! Dad thought it was hysterical. 25 years later I'm still trying to figure out the joke.
What my father didn't mention is that his attention was so focused on me that he completely neglected his other Son (who was strangely absent from this post) who is now 30, still lives at home with my mother and has never held a full time job in his life. Not to mention his 3 DUIs and the fact we have to get special permission for him to be released from jail to attend my father's funeral. Maybe if dad had been more worried about being a parent and not a friend, he wouldn't have argued with mom every time my brother stole $20 that they couldn't prove which child stole the money. One time the four of us (Mom, Dad, Sister and I) returned from a family outing to find the lock box they kept their money in pried open while only my brother was home. Yet that wasn't proof enough that my brother was the culprit. Just as my father did nothing after my brother started drinking at 13 and one time was absent from school for 45 days straight.
Maybe, just maybe instead of bitching on the internet about me (the one who made Captain, has a bronze star and now works for a Fortune 500) he had focused on my brother's truly deplorable behavior, my brother wouldn't be a 30 year old waste of space.
I don't want you to think I harbor resentment for my father. I don't. I love him with all my heart and would do anything if I could bring him back.
Yes, I acknowledge my father helped me. He did hand me $20 here and there. But he never paid a dime for my college. I had the ROTC scholarship with stipend and had loans that my mother cosigned (Dad told me what a disappointment I was when ROTC kicked me out and openly mocked me in front of family and friends alike - that's why our relationship was strained when he wrote this) and that I have entirely paid off on my own.
So to my point, there are always two sides to a story. I understand my father used this forum to vent like any other human. Hell, I don't even know if this reply will go through. I only found it googling my father's user name to see what he may have posted online. But here's the kicker and why I swear I will be more patient with my son....
I always knew my father and grandfather had a falling out. But I didn't know the details until my uncle told the story after my father passed. My grandfather DID pay for my dad to goto college. My grandfather had served in WW2 and had been a steel worker after the war. So he understood how important an education can be. My uncle and aunt went to college (paid for by my grandfather) and did well. My father on the other hand didn't do well in college. And while I may have been an idiot who wracked up $20k in debt, I always did what was necessary to get by. I had a job since I was 16 and my father never had to encourage me, in fact he stopped me from getting a paper route when I was younger because "it didn't pay enough for the work." But dad failed out of college and chose to enlist in 1972. Grandfather didn't like that and encouraged Dad to apply himself and get a degree. Dad was determined to join the Army, and grandfather left him saying "If you want to be a loser all of your life, I won't stop you." Those same words were said to me.
My point is try to listen and understand the other person's viewpoint. Maybe you're not the nice guy you think you are. Maybe your son is a *expletive deleted* ck up. But pick up the phone and have a conversation. And remember, words have power and like a bullet, they can't be taken back once they're out.
I'm impressed with this... a lot.
Welcome to the forum. Please do stay.
Also, your username... are you a stephen king fan?
Fitz
Fellow army, 11b. :-D
Post by: wmenorr67 on September 19, 2014, 08:26:25 PM
Thank you for coming in and telling us your side.
We are glad to have you and we think of ourselves sort of a dysfunctional family.
We have all kinds in here from all walks of life and if you stick around you will find that as any family we have our disagreements but in the end at worse we agree to disagree.
Post by: Hawkmoon on September 19, 2014, 09:23:34 PM
I imagine I disappointed my father, too. He was an Army officer in WW2 -- and so were several other family members in his generation. After I graduated from college I enlisted for OCS -- and then I dropped out of the program because I wasn't mentally prepared to being treated like the lowest common denominator. So I was an enlisted man. I did my term of enlistment, got sent to Vietnam, earned a couple of minor medals, and came home in one piece.
I know how proud my father was of having been an officer. I'm sorry I disappointed him, but that's what is. He died 30+ years ago -- I have no idea if any of the things I've done in life since then would salve his disappointment.
Post by: cassandra and sara's daddy on September 19, 2014, 09:27:22 PM
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Post by: birdman on September 21, 2014, 09:42:54 PM