Author Topic: Another step toward the nationalization of everything  (Read 5688 times)

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« on: November 12, 2008, 05:12:23 PM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081112/ap_on_go_co/auto_bailout
Quote
WASHINGTON – A key House Democrat is writing legislation that would send $25 billion in emergency loans to the beleaguered auto industry in exchange for a government ownership stake in the Big Three car companies.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid are pressing for quick passage of an auto bailout during a postelection session of Congress that begins Tuesday.

The legislation being drafted by Democratic Rep. Barney Frank, chairman of the Financial Services Committee, would dip into the $700 billion Wall Street rescue money approved by Congress last month for the auto aid. President Bush is cool to that idea, although the White House says he is open to helping the troubled industry.

Manedwolf

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 05:26:23 PM »
Yes, give them lots of money because they can't get their heads out of their ___es to make cars people wish to buy.

Businesses that can't adapt to changing market conditions SHOULD go away to be replaced with something new. That is how the market works!

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2008, 05:26:56 PM »
Damn right.  If GM can't make a car people want, they deserve to fail. 

ctdonath

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2008, 05:28:19 PM »
Additionally, that big "bailout" that was going to buy bad mortgages is now instead going to buy stocks in those banks - not buffering the mortgage problem, but nationalizing the banks instead. Bait-and-switch.
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Nick1911

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2008, 05:32:27 PM »
Businesses that can't adapt to changing market conditions SHOULD go away to be replaced with something new. That is how the market works!

Not anymore, apparently.

You see, it isn't fair to let GM go under!  They can't help it that Honda and Toyota make a better product; what can they do?  Think of the social impact, Mand; those union workers need their jobs!











 =D

Come on, that could be right out of Atlas Shrugged!  Like when the man is complaining to Dagny about the failed motor company...

Kinda scary, actually...

Manedwolf

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2008, 05:33:36 PM »
My parents rented a Cadillac DTS last year for a road trip. They were not impressed.

It had lots of gadgets, but they were poorly made gadgets, with exactly the same lack of quality you'd find in cheap fallapart electronics at wal-mart. It was like the Emerson clock radio that looks all nice from a distance, but up close, it's cheap chrome over plastic, the knobs fall off, and the display goes out. That's how the car was. Brand-new, and the gadgets were already malfunctioning. The switches on things (if you looked beneath the overmolded bezel) were the cheapest possible switches, the flimsiest plastic ones, the ones you'd see for the lowest price from Digi-Key or some other catalog.

Why would you pay $60,000 for that instead of buying a Lexus or Acura instead that's far more solid, thoughtfully built, and with more of a feel of crafted quality...not just chromeplated plastic on everything?

Interior materials and fit and finish should be excellent. We're too good with composites now, and robots can fit things perfectly and inspect with lasers. Doors should close with a solid, quality latch thunk, not a lowgrade-alloy clack from somewhere within. Buttons and controls should feel solid, not like there's a flimsy plastic surface epoxied to the stalk of the cheapest possible contact switch beneath that bends and wobbles uncertainly as you push on it.

And GM has not learned that. So they should go away till someone can re-form a new version that turns quicker than a supertanker, that focuses on quality, not bland repetition of poorly executed ideas and massive union handouts. Let the winners actually win. It's how the market works.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 05:39:38 PM by Manedwolf »

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2008, 05:34:00 PM »
Yeah, it's like we're living that book right now.  Someone please point me towards the Gulch.  I've got marketable skills.

yesitsloaded

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2008, 09:15:07 PM »
UAW killed them.
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Lennyjoe

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2008, 10:29:04 PM »
Radio said up to 3 million jobs would be lost if they rolled over. I don't think we this economy can afford that. I don't agree with saving any business that can't adapt to their chosen market and survive. FWIW, what part did the auto manufactures play during WWII?

Declaration Day

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2008, 10:32:51 PM »
My parents rented a Cadillac DTS last year for a road trip. They were not impressed.

It had lots of gadgets, but they were poorly made gadgets, with exactly the same lack of quality you'd find in cheap fallapart electronics at wal-mart. It was like the Emerson clock radio that looks all nice from a distance, but up close, it's cheap chrome over plastic, the knobs fall off, and the display goes out. That's how the car was. Brand-new, and the gadgets were already malfunctioning. The switches on things (if you looked beneath the overmolded bezel) were the cheapest possible switches, the flimsiest plastic ones, the ones you'd see for the lowest price from Digi-Key or some other catalog.

Why would you pay $60,000 for that instead of buying a Lexus or Acura instead that's far more solid, thoughtfully built, and with more of a feel of crafted quality...not just chromeplated plastic on everything?

Interior materials and fit and finish should be excellent. We're too good with composites now, and robots can fit things perfectly and inspect with lasers. Doors should close with a solid, quality latch thunk, not a lowgrade-alloy clack from somewhere within. Buttons and controls should feel solid, not like there's a flimsy plastic surface epoxied to the stalk of the cheapest possible contact switch beneath that bends and wobbles uncertainly as you push on it.

And GM has not learned that. So they should go away till someone can re-form a new version that turns quicker than a supertanker, that focuses on quality, not bland repetition of poorly executed ideas and massive union handouts. Let the winners actually win. It's how the market works.

Bingo, Manedwolf.

For too long the American auto manufacturers were peddling cars that were sub-par in quality, and far less desirable than imports.  Granted, American cars have been 90-95% on par with the Japanese with models that have been released within the last few years, but it's too little, too late.

For example, I drive a 2005 Chevy Silverado 2500HD.  This truck's design, save for a few cosmetic updates, was released in '98 or '99.  The panel gaps are so wide I almost don't have to open the door to get in.  Every time I climb in, the interior makes me feel like I've just stepped into a $34,000 Rubbermaid garbage can, and I've had the truck in for warranty repairs twelve times before it ran out of warranty.  I've put several hundred dollars in repairs into it since then. 

So why did I buy it?  I need it for work, and Toyota doesn't yet offer an HD truck.  Otherwise, there's no way in hell I'd shell out that kind of cash for a piece of junk.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 10:44:15 PM by Declaration Day »

HankB

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2008, 10:52:36 PM »
My mother drives an '06 Toyota Avalon.

Designed at Toyota's studio in California (which is almost America); engineered at Toyota's engineering center in Detroit, built by American workers at Toyota's factory in Kentucky, out of mostly US-sourced parts.

Just over three years old, it still appears to be well-made and reliable.

So . . . why can't GM build 'em like that? I'll point the finger at corporate leadership.

I'd make resignation of the CEO, CFO, President, and Board of any company that wanted taxpayer bailout money a requirement, with the additional proviso that they could not be replaced by similarly-displaced executives from another company being bailed out, and that no executive bonuses could be paid or stock options granted until the loans were paid back.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 11:08:16 PM »
Don't get too smug about Toyota.  My newest one, a 2003 Camry, isn't giving me warm and fuzzies anymore.  I've already spent more this year on repairs than I did on both of my previous Toyotas in nearly 15 years combined ownership.  Earlier this year, I replaced the water pump, belt tensioner, and alternator all at once.  Two weeks ago, I replaced the struts.  The car only has 130k miles.  I've NEVER had struts wear out in less than 150k before, even on American cars.  The service manager at the local Toyota dealership told me over the phone that the struts were not likely worn out because they normally got well over 200k.  Not only did they wear out, they wore out so completely the tires were wearing oddly.  Even the strut bearings were toast.  The guy at the (non-Toyota) shop said the reason they wore out so quickly is because Toyota switched to a cheaper strut in 2001-2002.  The car has also had other minor issues such as trim popping loose, environmental control backlights going out, etc that I would not expect, and did not see, in my other Toyotas.

I am this car's second owner and bought it at 72k miles.  The carfax report didn't indicate any wrecks or problems.  I fear Toyota may be making it's own slide towards mediocrity.  I hope I got a lemon, but based on what I've seen on Toyota forums, this may be normal.

Chris

Monkeyleg

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 11:12:04 PM »
Thanks to the UAW, General Motors was paying on average $81 an hour for factory workers' wages and benefits. Toyota has been paying half of that.

I'm not denying that GM, Ford and Chrysler have made sub-standard cars for many years, but they've been hamstrung by the unions. GM is close to having as many workers receiving pensions and health care benefits as they have current workers. My father was receiving a generous pension until he died two months ago at 91. My mother will continue to receive the pension for as long as she lives, which could be another ten years.

A former neighbor of mine was making $55,000 a year driving a forklift at GM, and that doesn't even take into account all of the benefits.

How much of the price of a GM, Ford or Chrysler vehicle is inflated wages and benefits?

RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2008, 11:13:31 PM »
After my 2003 GMC Sierra kicks the bucket (And it will soon) I am going back to beaters.  Late 80s to early 90s asian cars.  Spend 1200 bucks, drive it till its a pile of rusted metal parts, then buy another one.  New cars are stupid.

RevDisk

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2008, 11:49:35 PM »

Something I noticed is that having consequences to one's actions tends to make one more proactive.  If you actually hold folks accountable, they tend to do a better job.  Gods, HOW many times has the feds bailed out the auto industry? 

If GM had half an IQ point, they'd shutter their plants until their unions agreed to disband or at least become somewhat reasonable.  Or they could actually look into manufacturing vehicles that are reliable and wanted by the general public.   Generally speaking, if you make a horrible product, people eventually stop buying it. 


I'm the proud owner of a Kia Spectra.  It's not flashy, but it was reasonably priced and it's friggin comfortable.  My car prior to that was a Ford Taurus.  After the engine exploded and caught fire (it threw a rod) while I was on the highway to Hell (Michigan), I decided to swear off  "US brand" cars.  I have no problem with the car being made in America (preferably with a nonunion American work force and foreign management), just not one of the big 3. 
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roo_ster

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2008, 12:03:22 AM »
A bailout will NOT cure what ails the Big 3.

What they need is good, old-fashioned bankruptcy where they shed pension & health-care obligations like Continental Airlines did a couple years back.  Also, where they go hammer & tongs in labor negotiations.

That will get costs down from "crushing" to merely "ridiculous" and solve half their problems.

The other half is getting management to get  their head out of their backsides and increase the tempo of model revisions and increasing quality.
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PTK

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2008, 12:16:41 AM »
Folks, before crying that those Japanese cars are such-n-such, you might take a look at where they're built...  =)

I haven't, and never will, ever owned a GM/Ford/Chevy/etc. Too much money for not enough vehicle, AND the dang things really aren't "American". Ford - made mostly in Mexico, some components made in Canada, assembled here in the USA. How is that "USA MADE"?
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RevDisk

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2008, 12:22:31 AM »
A bailout will NOT cure what ails the Big 3.

What they need is good, old-fashioned bankruptcy where they shed pension & health-care obligations like Continental Airlines did a couple years back.  Also, where they go hammer & tongs in labor negotiations.

That will get costs down from "crushing" to merely "ridiculous" and solve half their problems.

The other half is getting management to get  their head out of their backsides and increase the tempo of model revisions and increasing quality.

Just like to point out that shedding pension obligations means privatizing gains and socializing loss.  The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation would have to pick up the tab, which means ultimately the US taxpayers.  The best way would be to crush the union and smack the management.  Hard in both cases.  Good luck with that, because it won't happen in either. 

If you're needing some horror material and don't feel like renting one of Correia's recommendations, read up on the Employee Free Choice Act.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_Free_Choice_Act  Allegedly one of Obama's top priorities, albit it hasn't really made the news yet. 
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K Frame

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 12:33:45 AM »
"Yes, give them lots of money because they can't get their heads out of their ___es to make cars people wish to buy."

Well, they were doing exactly that. People wanted SUVs and pickup trucks.

Until the price of gas spiked and people nationwide did a collective palm-to-forehead plant and said "I can't afford $4 a gallon for this thing! I need a microfartbox!"

Had GM been building only microfartbox cars and blowing static inventory records each month and going under, you'd be saying the same thing.

You don't turn heavy industry like an auto manufacturing plant from SUVs or pick ups to making microfartboxes in a month, or even three.

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Waitone

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2008, 02:24:29 AM »
It is SOP for companies in trouble to try to off load pensions.  GM and Ford have only started to fix what is wrong.  I dispise bailouts but in the case of the US auto industry one auto jobs is supported by something like 10 support jobs in the supplier network.  Let's say I'm half right.  Leverage is 5 to one.  200,000 UAW jobs translates into 1,200,000 total jobs.  So we may be right in letting auto makes reap the consequences of their stupidity.  Trouble is a lot of others will pay a price.  In all things corporate, when elephants fights it is the ants that catch hell.  Same here.

BTW, ever notice how we can't hand out money fast enough to the financial world but think the moral hazard is too high to hand money to manufacturing?
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Gewehr98

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2008, 03:29:53 AM »
I've no sympathy for the UAW.

None.

Entry-level pay scale:

http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/gm/gm03.php

Standard, "skilled-trade" pay scale:

http://www.uaw.org/contracts/07/gm/gm02.php

Cry me a friggin' river. 
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Manedwolf

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2008, 08:53:26 AM »
"Yes, give them lots of money because they can't get their heads out of their ___es to make cars people wish to buy."

Well, they were doing exactly that. People wanted SUVs and pickup trucks.

Until the price of gas spiked and people nationwide did a collective palm-to-forehead plant and said "I can't afford $4 a gallon for this thing! I need a microfartbox!"

Had GM been building only microfartbox cars and blowing static inventory records each month and going under, you'd be saying the same thing.

You don't turn heavy industry like an auto manufacturing plant from SUVs or pick ups to making microfartboxes in a month, or even three.

It's not just the SUV lines. GM has WAY too many bland K-car like vehicles that do nothing but cannibalize each other's sales. So does Ford and Chrysler! They both could axe half their brands and cut out half of the cars that mostly only rental car fleets buy because they're disposable-crap they pay union employees $$$$ to build...and nobody would notice what was missing.

Seriously, who buys stuff like a Dodge Stratus, and how much are they paying UAW workers to build them?

How much does it cost Ford to keep separate-marketing the Mercury brand, which pretty much only has stuff like a rebadged Crown Vic? Why don't they just drop it and consolidate? And as far as style? This was my favorite review of a recent Ford product...

Quote
The only way the 2008 Lincoln Navigator could be flashier and more "blingtastic" would be if it came with a flashing orange neon sign bolted to the roof advertising "Free Cristal." The front end is adorned with not one, but two huge chrome grilles complete with an optional chrome hood mustache and a Lincoln cross logo so big it could double for a religious icon.

Fire the designers or the execs who keep overriding good designers with committee meetings. Realize that 1980's engine tech is not what people want in full-sized sedans. Fire people who keep cutting the quality of interior materials, thinking that consumers will not notice. (THEY DO! As was just said here, who wants to drive a Rubbermaid bin around?) Cut redundant brands that undercut each other. And tell the UAW to go pound sand.

MAKE the unions realize that they either get realistic wages, or no wages at all, because the company will be gone.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 09:08:00 AM by Manedwolf »

MechAg94

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2008, 09:26:30 AM »
Why do they have so many bland K-cars?  The answer is more GOVERNMENT REGULATION!  They are forced to build enough of those crap cars so their average vehicle fuel economy is meets the government regulatory standard arbitrarily set by Congress.  They can't meet that standard by building more trucks. 

I have 2003 GMC Sierra that has had pretty much perfect reliability.  The only time I got under the hood was to change the drive belt past 100,000 miles.  However, If I was to buy an economy car, I doubt I would buy a GM model. 
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Firethorn

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2008, 09:46:33 AM »
Just like to point out that shedding pension obligations means privatizing gains and socializing loss.  The Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation would have to pick up the tab, which means ultimately the US taxpayers.

Still, needs to be done.  Bankruptcy hearings would cost a LOT of people, as the company is restructured, shedding it's assets and obligations.

Quote
  The best way would be to crush the union and smack the management.  Hard in both cases.  Good luck with that, because it won't happen in either. 


The various chapters of bankruptcy would help enable this though.

Quote
Why do they have so many bland K-cars?  The answer is more GOVERNMENT REGULATION!

Agreed.

Nick1911

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Re: Another step toward the nationalization of everything
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2008, 09:52:46 AM »
Folks, before crying that those Japanese cars are such-n-such, you might take a look at where they're built...  =)

I haven't, and never will, ever owned a GM/Ford/Chevy/etc. Too much money for not enough vehicle, AND the dang things really aren't "American". Ford - made mostly in Mexico, some components made in Canada, assembled here in the USA. How is that "USA MADE"?

FWIW, A very good friend of mine works for a Honda plant in Ohio.  American workers cast, machine and assemble entire engines there, in Ohio.  It's an absolutely huge facility that employs a LOT of people...