Author Topic: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???  (Read 65620 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #175 on: May 27, 2008, 05:18:13 AM »
Ayn Rand had some pretty outlandish views. Yet how many people arrived to conservatism, or libertarianism, through Rand?
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Glock Glockler

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #176 on: May 27, 2008, 06:30:43 AM »
Rand wrote books, these guys hold signs and swear at people, also, no matter what your opinion about 9/11 is holding a sign that says "9/11 was an inside job" is going to turn people off, you might attract 10 Cheetos eaters but you'll anger 500 regular people.  There are effective ways to protest something, and a certain degree of protesting is necessary, but these guys wouldn't know it if it fell on them. 

Right now there is the preception among a lot of people that Libertarians are just a bunch of hippies that want pot to be legal so they can smoke it without getting busted, marketing to those exact people might get you a few of those but it'll turn off exponentially more.  You say that all those groups are necessary, so where are the pavement pounders?  You look at the Democrats and Republicans, they have an actual machine in place to get things done, they know specifically what their goals are and have a plan set how they want to achieve them?

What are the specific political goals of the LP and FSP people?  Democrats market themselves to various groups, teachers, unions, pro-choice, etc. and they are able to take people in those groups and get them to work for the party, what is the LP doing to organize various groups on their behalf?    I used to be involved with both the LP and the FSP and can say that it's the blind leading the blind, no one wants to even discuss a common end to work towards.  The most rational of the FSP people that I've met so far had zero interest in the rampant voter fraud that occured here and resulted in a Democratic governor instead of one who was libertarian leaning, they felt to ask anyone to provide identification before voting was an abridgement of their natural rights, instead that wanted to start a class educating people about jury nullification.

Look at it this way, how long has the FSP been around for, what have they accomplished so far?  How long has the LP been around for, since 71, and what have they accomplished?

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #177 on: May 27, 2008, 02:15:50 PM »
As a kid in school, I was somewhat of an outcast.  I was smaller than my classmates but smarter than they and they didn't like being shown up by the "fat little shrimp."  As my marginalization began to show some success (at least from their point of view) they did it to other kids for other reasons and soon there were several of us on the ouside looking in. 

Then something interesting happened.  We "misfits" kinda banded together out of necessity and became a force to be dealt with.  In our small school we had some real power though we lacked the experience to really know how to wield it.  So we became troublemakers.  Nothing real serious because we knew our parents would kill us if we did anything really dumb but we still took every opportunity to pee in the cornflakes of those who had ostracized us.

I think we're now looking at a larger group of people recently labled "moonbats" and "loonies" who have found strength in numbers.  Every once in awhile you can expect them to do something really stupid if for no other reason than to let off steam.  If they also shake the whithered husk that is our present political system and cause a few seeds to fall onto fertile soil...  well, all the better.  But even if they don't those who treasure their status quo had better keep a close eye on their cornflakes!

Well put. Different people have different ways of protesting. You can be as "civilized" as holding hands and singing hymns in a park, or you can dress up like a band of "savages" and throw some tea in a harbor.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #178 on: May 27, 2008, 07:01:27 PM »
The LP has basically accomplished nothing, but the LP is the retarded child of the libertarian movement. I will return later today and post in great detail on the FSP's accomplishments.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #179 on: May 27, 2008, 07:09:20 PM »
The LP has basically accomplished nothing, but the LP is the retarded child of the libertarian movement. I will return later today and post in great detail on the FSP's accomplishments.

Coming from someone who lives in NH, they sure haven't accomplished anything here besides alternately providing annoyance and comic relief to residents.

People snicker when they get shown on the news making a scene and getting themselves arrested, (I've heard "hippies" said in a diner full of locals, even), and get annoyed when they get in-your-face loud and confrontational in public, since that is so not a traditional New Hampshire way to behave at all. And people were actually really upset when their antics brought the US Marshals to question people in the Manchester bar that's their hangout. People at work were talking about that, and someone mentioned the Weathermen. That incident made the front page of the local papers.

I've seen more than a few "FREE STATERS GO HOME" bumper stickers, because the best way to piss off a traditional Northern New Englander is to show up as a newcomer and say you're going to change stuff.

So, then. Coming from someone who is not here, what have they accomplished?

MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #180 on: May 27, 2008, 09:33:33 PM »
It was asked what goals the Libertarian Party has achieved in the years between 1971 and 2008. The questioner, of course, makes the error of equating the LP with general libertarianism. A mistake on the face of it  as far as I know, most of the people who identify themselves with libertarianism are not members of the party, and most of the prominent libertarians will wave their hands and stage fits if you want to equate them with the Libertarian Party.

Let us now go towards the FSP. The project's aim, in accordance with its founding principles, is to get people with generally libertarian views to move to the state. It does not do any organizational work within the state at all. That said, the very existance of the Project has acted in an invigorating fashion on those libertarians that reside in New Hampshire already, allowing the creation of various activist groups in the state, and getting libertarians to join, and volunteer for, NHLA, GONH [which is naturally not a 'libertarian' group, but obviously the vision of furthering gun rights is common to us all on this forum]. Several FSP members have won various offices, including a guy called Joel Winters in the state legislature. That's some pavement-pounding right there.

Than there's Liberty Scholarship.

At the current time, libertarians (small 'l' or big L) are not likely to win any major elections anywhere, but they are able  to some extent  to affect the platform of the two major parties, their primaries, and so forth.

What the entire Ron Paul thing has done  to what degree it is difficult to judge  is to get many Libertarians to join the various GOP state organizations, to become precinct committee members and so forth. It's not much, but I'm not expecting much, as of now. If it works out  and it might not work out, especially if McCain wins  we're going to see the libertarian wing of the GOP get larger.

As for the accomplishments of libertarians in general, I remind you gently that it is the Cato Institute that started Heller v. DC. 

P.S. Ron Paul's loss is of course not only the libertarians' loss, it is the Republicans' loss. Had he been elected, he'd give the Republicans many Republican stuff (lower taxes, for instance), in exchange for one major issue of ending the War in Iraq (few people genuinely care about the monetary policy of the United States, or are equipped intellectually to argue for, or against, Keynesian monetary policy, or monetarism, or free banking, or the gold standard. Nor is central banking going away any time in the next, say, two decades. No matter who is President.) They decided the War was the one key issue, because the impending threat of 'Radical Islam' was the most terribly important thing. Essentially, it was the revival of W. F. Buckley's idea that huge government is awesome, if it just lets you beat the Soviets.

P.P.S. You do realize the people selling the Free Staters Go home stickers are raving 'progressive' socialists?


Get your Free Staters Go Home! stickers here!
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"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Manedwolf

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #181 on: May 28, 2008, 04:17:03 AM »
Let us now go towards the FSP. The project's aim, in accordance with its founding principles, is to get people with generally libertarian views to move to the state. It does not do any organizational work within the state at all. That said, the very existance of the Project has acted in an invigorating fashion on those libertarians that reside in New Hampshire already, allowing the creation of various activist groups in the state, and getting libertarians to join, and volunteer for, NHLA, GONH [which is naturally not a 'libertarian' group, but obviously the vision of furthering gun rights is common to us all on this forum]. Several FSP members have won various offices, including a guy called Joel Winters in the state legislature. That's some pavement-pounding right there.

That's funny. The most I've seen them do is repeatedly get arrested, call the Manchester PD "Nazis", and then march around the jail wearing "V for Vendetta" costumes.

Quote
P.P.S. You do realize the people selling the Free Staters Go home stickers are raving 'progressive' socialists?

They are? Huh. Well, for one thing, that's not the sticker I saw. They were sans-serif font white on black. Considering in one case the other sticker on the TRUCK was a Bush/Cheney 04 sticker, and in two other cases, on a truck and a car, there were also NRA stickers and one Marine Corps sticker, and on an older jeep, an NRA and SASS sticker. Yeah, that really looks like raving progressive socialists.  rolleyes

I love how you, half a world away, can definitively say what the mentality is of people in cars I pass on the road every day.

Glock Glockler

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #182 on: May 28, 2008, 06:21:36 AM »
Micro,

Regarding Joel, I've met him on several occasions, so I know a little about him being elected, before I get to that you should know that the NH House a few hundred representatives.  Anyway, a lot of times the Democrats and Republicans actually can't get people from every district to run for all the available seats, so if anyone from that district who is a member of the party says "I want to run" they'll put them on the ballot.  With many elections a voter won't know all the specific people running for a particular office so they have a "straight ticket" option, you check that and everyone in that party will get your vote, so it's entirely possible to win a seat and never have to get off the couch.

Joel decided to run as a Democrat in a heavily Democratic city and managed to win, good for him, but I'm not exactly going to break out the champagne over it.  One thing you seem to forget is that I live in NH and I was involved with the FSP for about 2-3yrs after NH was chosen, and I know many of the people involved in it.  There's a reason why I'm not involved anymore. 

roo_ster

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #183 on: May 28, 2008, 07:56:00 AM »
I reject your reality and replace it with my own!
Regards,

roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #184 on: May 28, 2008, 08:21:54 AM »
You know, I'm going to cede the argument. You dismiss any achievements that I refer to, overstate side points of my argument as important, and deliberately avoid the crux of my argument.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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The Annoyed Man

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #185 on: May 28, 2008, 01:08:03 PM »
You know, I'm going to cede the argument. You dismiss any achievements that I refer to, overstate side points of my argument as important, and deliberately avoid the crux of my argument.

Some people thrive for winning arguments online. Today at least, you are not one of those people. Salute.

I sense that you are perhaps frustrated at your loss. Here is an article that I hope will provide you with some comic relief:

http://www.jonathancrossfield.com/blog/2008/05/how-to-win-arguments-online-a.html

Quote from: Robert Frost
There is no arguing with him, for if his pistol misses fire, he knocks you down with the butt end of it.

MechAg94

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #186 on: May 28, 2008, 02:09:35 PM »
Quote
P.S. Ron Paul's loss is of course not only the libertarians' loss, it is the Republicans' loss. Had he been elected, he'd give the Republicans many Republican stuff (lower taxes, for instance), in exchange for one major issue of ending the War in Iraq (few people genuinely care about the monetary policy of the United States, or are equipped intellectually to argue for, or against, Keynesian monetary policy, or monetarism, or free banking, or the gold standard. Nor is central banking going away any time in the next, say, two decades. No matter who is President.) They decided the War was the one key issue, because the impending threat of 'Radical Islam' was the most terribly important thing. Essentially, it was the revival of W. F. Buckley's idea that huge government is awesome, if it just lets you beat the Soviets.
I think Ron Paul is the one who ruined his chances by not compromising his message a bit to stick with the primary issues he could accomplish.  The smaller govt/lower taxes message is a good one as well as cutting useless govt programs.  I think he should have shut up about the gold standard and the Fed and left that for another day.  Proposing changes like that are going to scare or concern more people than not.  Sort of like saying you are going to completely end Social Security. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

oldfart

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #187 on: May 28, 2008, 08:40:20 PM »
"I think Ron Paul is the one who ruined his chances by not compromising his message a bit to stick with the primary issues he could accomplish."

You may be right.  If so, it's a sad commentary on American politics that a candidate must water his message down to please an electorate that has learned to expect compromise rather than principle.  Ron Paul seems to believe in all the right things.  He was never able to make a populace addicted to the government teat realize it had to be weaned before America could prosper again.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #188 on: May 28, 2008, 09:02:45 PM »
if he can't handle that to get elected he woulda been a nonstarter once in office as far as getting anything done in dc   we already hada suffer the peanut farmer we can ill afford another one like him
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #189 on: May 28, 2008, 11:12:44 PM »
if he can't handle that to get elected he woulda been a nonstarter once in office as far as getting anything done in dc

Would you like to separate, purely mental-exercise thread, as to what Ron Paul would be able to achieve, if elected? [Given he lost] I believe I could argue that one. But I think it would be a poinltess argument.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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MechAg94

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #190 on: May 29, 2008, 05:19:41 AM »
That was what I was getting at.  I think Ron Paul should have looked at the things he wanted to change in DC and seriously judged which ones he was actually likely to get guys in Congress to agree with; that he could accomplish.  He could then pick out a handful of things to run on and say "this is what I will do in office".  There is no way in hell that he would get any substantial support in Congress for abolishing the Fed or going back to the Gold standard.  Why even bring it up?  This wasn't some think tank discussion group on PBS.  He was running for President.  He should run on the things he seriously thinks he can do.  If he must, other ideas can be trotted out later if he thinks he has support for them.

IMO, it underscored the fact that he was not an effective campaigner and he would not likely be a good leader.  I like the idea of guys like him in Congress or in a President's cabinet, but not as the POTUS. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #191 on: May 29, 2008, 05:24:45 AM »
His ideas on ending the WOT and Iraq were another issue of contention.  I know people who liked him, but specifically mentioned his position on that as a no go.  I think that one issue limited his support base in the Republican Party substantially.  I am not 100% how he explained his position on that.  I have heard him talk about his foreign policy ideas and I liked what he had to say, but it was separate from the Iraq issue.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #192 on: May 29, 2008, 05:32:11 AM »
I think that - since msot people don't care about banking policy either way - it's the war that killed him.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #193 on: May 29, 2008, 08:14:38 AM »
Ayn Rand had some pretty outlandish views. Yet how many people arrived to conservatism, or libertarianism, through Rand?

She called it "objectivism" and it had many valuable and rational ideas at the core. Anyone unwilling to think with the crowd should expect to be labeled, ridiculed, lambasted, lampooned and disparaged. Doesn't mean their ideas have no value.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #194 on: May 29, 2008, 08:43:23 AM »
Ayn Rand had some pretty outlandish views. Yet how many people arrived to conservatism, or libertarianism, through Rand?

She called it "objectivism" and it had many valuable and rational ideas at the core. Anyone unwilling to think with the crowd should expect to be labeled, ridiculed, lambasted, lampooned and disparaged. Doesn't mean their ideas have no value.

Yes. Objectivism has great value. But inquire about the personal life and habits of Ayn Rand, and you'll discover some pretty strange stuff - quite on par with the wookie suits.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #195 on: May 29, 2008, 08:49:52 AM »
Ayn Rand had some pretty outlandish views. Yet how many people arrived to conservatism, or libertarianism, through Rand?

She called it "objectivism" and it had many valuable and rational ideas at the core. Anyone unwilling to think with the crowd should expect to be labeled, ridiculed, lambasted, lampooned and disparaged. Doesn't mean their ideas have no value.

Yes. Objectivism has great value. But inquire about the personal life and habits of Ayn Rand, and you'll discover some pretty strange stuff - quite on par with the wookie suits.

I'm well aware of the strange stuff. She was a cult of personality. I can separate her weirdo trysts and odd marriage and cult like followers from her philosophy. Hell, I hope people will do the same for me. What I believe in and what I actually do day to day don't make much sense sometimes either.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #196 on: May 29, 2008, 01:03:42 PM »
Anyone unwilling to think with the crowd should expect to be labeled, ridiculed, lambasted, lampooned and disparaged. Doesn't mean their ideas have no value.   


Heck, you can go along with the crowd and still get all of that.  Just log on to APS. 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #197 on: May 29, 2008, 10:51:36 PM »
Quote from: 40 caliber
I'm well aware of the strange stuff. She was a cult of personality. I can separate her weirdo trysts and odd marriage and cult like followers from her philosophy. Hell, I hope people will do the same for me. What I believe in and what I actually do day to day don't make much sense sometimes either.

Which is EXACTLY my point.

You can't expect a normal, tie-wearing, no-noise-making, nine-to-five person to make a revolution.
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"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

seeker_two

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #198 on: May 30, 2008, 01:19:08 AM »
Anyone unwilling to think with the crowd should expect to be labeled, ridiculed, lambasted, lampooned and disparaged. Doesn't mean their ideas have no value.   


Heck, you can go along with the crowd and still get all of that.  Just log on to APS. 

Nope....that's just you....  cheesy
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Sylvan-Forge

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Re: Ron Paul??? What the Heck???
« Reply #199 on: June 04, 2008, 12:42:32 PM »
For anyone interested in a summary of Ludwig von Mises' economic theories ..

Mises on Money
by Gary North

http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north83.html