Author Topic: GPS units  (Read 5687 times)

jefnvk

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« on: August 22, 2005, 04:25:36 PM »
I am considering a GPS, and would like some input.  This would be used for fishing and hunting, so that I don't get lost, and can find my way back to hot spots.  It would be used out on the Great Lakes, where it is common enough to get far enough out to not be able to see the shore.  I am looking at about a $200 price limit.

I'm not sure if the mapping software would be useful or not, any reccomendations on that would be appreciated as well.

What ones do you guys have, or reccomend?  I see right now, Gander Mountain has the Garmin eTrex Legend with the mapping software for and accessories for $199.  They also have the Garmin Map 76 for $199, but without the mapping software, just the base map.  Any opinions on those?  Any others in that price range that you like?
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Ben

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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2005, 04:38:41 PM »
There's a few of these threads over at THR you should check out.

http://www.gpsinformation.net    is a good place to research stuff.

Basically, any of the units from the big three (Garmin, Lowrance, Magellan) will serve you well. Nowadays I highly recommend WAAS capable units.
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thorn

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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2005, 09:51:33 PM »
if you have a laptop, for $99 you can get microsoft maps which comes with a gps.
the most awesome setup ever. your laptop shows the map, gps puts you on it, endless extra features.
got it for a lady who is a sales person she loves it




for a handheld, just make sure it has memory.
i got a bar bones garmin etrek- works well enough for what i want, and works for not getting lost, you set a home point at camp, and it tells you how to get back, etc. trackbback is VERy cool.
BUT= for a few extra bucks i could have had memory, which means them you can plug into computer , put maps of where you are going in there,. sweet. superimpose your path over the map, yer totally set.

for $200, you can get a reALLY good one. i like my etrek, but by now there must be more powerful ones.

erik the bold

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« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2005, 04:38:05 AM »
I've used the Garmin handheld units for the past 6 years (GPS II, GPS III, GPS V) and found them to be rugged, dependable units with decent battery life. You can also load them with detail maps, including topography, streets, and marine info.  I have a GPS V that use in an offshore race boat in 3-5 footers at 100+ mph and never had a failure.  Another good place to price units is Adventure GPS at: http://www.gps4fun.com/   I've delt with them a couple of times and was pleased with the price, service, and selection.
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Nathaniel Firethorn

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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2005, 05:12:49 AM »
If you can go an extra $21, I'd recommend an eTrex Vista. The magnetic compass and 24MB map can come in handy.

With any manufacturer, you are locked into using that manufacturer's mapping software.

BTW, Magellans are made by the French.

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jefnvk

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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2005, 08:00:16 AM »
What does the electronic compass do?

Wasn't really looking at a Magellan, it is going to be a Lowrance or Garmin.  Don't care much for the design, and they seem to be a step or two behind the other two.

I wouldn't mind the laptop setup, but it is kinda hard to carry around in the woods.  I have though many time it would be nice while driving, though.
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Nathaniel Firethorn

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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2005, 09:03:04 AM »
It's a magnetic compass that's integrated with the GPSr. It lets the GPSr point an arrow to a "goto" point, regardless of the orientation of the GPSr and even if you're standing still.

Without it, the GPSr can't tell what direction it's pointed in. It gets its bearings relative to your heading, not relative to the orientation of the GPSr. And, of course, if you're not moving, you don't have a heading.

You can certainly use a GPSr without a magnetic compass, but it's soooooo much nicer!

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thorn

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2005, 09:06:29 AM »
>>>>It's a magnetic compass that's integrated with the GPS. It lets you get the bearing to a "goto" point while you're standing still. (Without it, the GPSr can't tell what direction it's pointed in; it gets bearings relative to your heading. And, of course, if you're not moving, you don't have a heading.)<<<<


YES YES - mine doesnt have one, and it is very annoying trying to get a bearing standing still - you have to move a few feet to get it to tell you, and it takes a sec to reset itself, a real pain.

think- the GPS calculates everything by measuring where you were vs where you are.
no moving= no data. so you really need a built in REal compass!

jefnvk

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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2005, 09:51:59 AM »
Ah, that could indeed be useful.  I'll be sure to play with that when I go to the store.
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cordex

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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2005, 11:02:28 AM »
I'm pretty happy with my Garmin RINO 120.  Integrated handheld radio comes in handy, plus you can have it transmit your position to others with RINOs.

thorn

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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2005, 11:38:51 AM »
see Cordex, that;'s what im talking about- i knew there would be some killer innovations since i got mine a few years ago.

sending your position to others! wow!. then they just set to "goto" . man , the uses.

of course the military can scan all of us, and their units are way way better./

civilian units are intentionaly less accurate, and use different freq, no indoors , blacked out around certain buildings, etc ..

the govt could easily switch off ALL civilian units, and retain their GPS since they are on a seperate band
(listed at the bottom of this link, you would have to crack encryption to access mil GPS)
http://gge.unb.ca/Resources/HowDoesGPSWork.html

so it is awesome for camping , fun, but SHTF scenario, it might not be.

i originally got mine for a funny reason- to use as a speedometer in my truck, little gear on tranny was busted, no speedo. ACK! i order GPS, and before it arrives, tranny busted and i replaced it solving problem.
so GPS went to camping supplies. now 3 years later, speedometer totally gave out, gps is back in service as speedometer!

Nathaniel Firethorn

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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2005, 01:04:17 PM »
Quote
I'll be sure to play with that when I go to the store.
You'll need to go out of the store to get any signal. The signal from the satellites is on the order of a ten-zillionth of an eenyweenywatt.

Mrs. Firethorn can tell you a funny story about the GPSr she gave me for Christmas, which I declared to be worthless because it wouldn't lock on when it was in my knapsack...
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thorn

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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2005, 07:30:43 PM »
>>>You'll need to go out of the store to get any signal. The signal from the satellites is on the order of a ten-zillionth of an eenyweenywatt.<<<<

AGAIN- it is INTentionally Not strong enough fofr CIViliAn use indoors.

the military band works fine inside or out, just like a regular fm radio does.

"they" don't want "us" to be able to pinpoint any strategic locations.
also why the elevation detail is the least accurate, especially in urban areas

jefnvk

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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2005, 08:33:17 PM »
I dunno.  The GPS my dad has works just fine indoors.  I don't have any problems with the displays I have looked at so far working indoors.

As for the intentional degredation of the signal, Garmin seems to think that it was stopped in 2000:

http://www.garmin.com/aboutGPS/

Intentional degradation of the satellite signal  Selective Availability (SA) is an intentional degradation of the signal once imposed by the U.S. Department of Defense. SA was intended to prevent military adversaries from using the highly accurate GPS signals. The government turned off SA in May 2, which significantly improved the accuracy of civilian GPS receivers.


Seeing that they can get down to the accuracy of a few feet, I wouldn't think there is much degredation going on.  Of course, that is not to say that they couldn't turn it back on in the future.  but then again, I am not really buying one for a SHTF scenario, where they would feel the need to shut it off.
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Nathaniel Firethorn

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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2005, 05:34:16 AM »
What GPSr does your dad have? Can it actually get position indoors if it's started indoors?

Neither my GPSMAP 76S nor Mrs. Firethorn's eTrex will work if the signal is hindered by so much as a piece of ripstop nylon...

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jefnvk

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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2005, 06:10:34 AM »
It is an older Lowrance, GlobalNav 12 I believe.  And yeah, it will lock on starting inside the house.

Maybe something else I'll have to look at, if the newer ones aren't as good of reception as the older ones.
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cordex

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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2005, 06:24:03 AM »
Nathaniel Firethorn,
Does it work inside your car?

My old Magellan GPS 300 and my new RINO 120 would both lock on eventually indoors most places (if I'm somewhat near an exterior wall, anyway).

Ben

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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2005, 06:50:42 AM »
Newer or older is actually not the factor -- it's antenna design and allowed Dilution of Precision (DOP). I have a $12K unit with a big giant backpack antenna that will not lock on in or near enclosed areas ("military signal" is irrelevant here) because the signal degradation would exceed programmed DOP parameters. Some of my $99.95 field training units will lock inside no problem -- you just deal with much greater error due to signal diffusion.

www.trimble.com has a nice background tutorial that will give you the skinny on all this.
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Nathaniel Firethorn

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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2005, 07:53:03 AM »
Cordex,

It works near the windshield. If it's closer to the center of the interior, it loses the signal.

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jefnvk

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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2005, 12:45:45 PM »
So you are saying ben, that they won't lock, because the error would be greater than they are programmed to allow?

That makes sense.
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Ben

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« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2005, 01:05:16 PM »
Basically, yeah. On a consumer unit, it's as simple as saying " I won't lock if I have less than 3 sats, and then only in 2D mode. Some units will let you get more particular. On a professional unit for instance, I can specify exactly what my minimums should be. I can say that  I want minimum of 5 sats, PDOP of 3.0 or less, and all locked sats must be at elevation 15 deg or greater. That would keep my pro unit from locking in a lot of instances, even in the open, where a $100 unit would tell you it's getting good nav.
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jefnvk

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« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2005, 04:13:46 PM »
Cool, that certainly explains a lot.
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thorn

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« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2005, 09:23:39 PM »
>>>>>>
Intentional degradation of the satellite signal  Selective Availability (SA) is an intentional degradation of the signal once imposed by the U.S. Department of Defense. SA was intended to prevent military adversaries from using the highly accurate GPS signals. The government turned off SA in May 2, which significantly improved the accuracy of civilian GPS receivers<<<<<<<


re instated after 9-11??? . =
ok no, i found this =
In the GIS community, the Current Situation created a buzz around SA. On September 17, 2001, the Interagency GPS Executive Board, which governs the system, posted a statement on its website by saying SA will never be reinstated. However, the Pentagon has developed the capability to jam civilian GPS signals within a specific targeted area and could easily deny the 36-meter-accuracy civilian signal, without interfering with users in other areas of the world. That would mean only military GPS receivers in planes, ships and in the hands of US special forces would work within the targeted area. But can we really rely on this statement?

>>>
It works near the windshield. If it's closer to the center of the interior, it loses the signal.<<<

same here.

Otherguy Overby

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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2005, 07:43:26 AM »
My limited experience with GPS is that it doesn't work very well, if at all, in the woods.

I thought I wanted one, but after trying a friends, I found it nearly useless.  It only worked on trails and roads where there was a good view of the sky.

Maybe some are better than that, but color me skeptical.
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gaston_45

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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2005, 08:38:05 AM »
I have the gpsmap60 from Garmin and it works great, it was 299 so it might be a bit higher in price then you were looking for.  It will run for around 12 to 14 hours on 2 AA batteries depending on how much you use the backlight.  I live in Oregon and we have a few trees here.  If your are totally under thick cannopy then the signal is all but lost but even then there are usually enough breaks in the cannopy to allow a lock and a general idea of where you are( general being within 80 feet or so).  These things run in the ghz range so basically anything solid will reflect the signal, leafy trees are worse than needled trees.  The 60 series can accept amplified external antennas, which run around 50 dollars or so on up to a couple hundred depending on how serious you are about recieving the signal.

When you are looking you need to think about how you want to carry the thing too, the etreks, Magellins, and the Lowrances use a patch antenna.  This reguires you to hold them as if they were lying on a table top, they HAVE to be flat to get a good signal.  The gpsmap 60, Rhino, and gpsmap76 series from garmin use a quad Helical antenna setup, this one you have to hold upright like a cell phone when you are speaking on it. they both have advantages but I think it is easier to see the screen when it is held upright, you don't get the glare that you do when it is flat.  

As far as locking on indoors, mine will here, but only in certain locations, the satellites only put out 500 milliwatts, about what a cell phone does.  It is not blocked by the millitary anywhere right now, and with the WAAS enabled units you can get within three feet or so.  In a city the multipath can get pretty bad with the signal bouncing off all the buildings, all those same signals arriving a few milliseconds apart confuses the reciever.  Oh, that's the other thing, the government CANNOT track you by your gps RECIEVER, it is, afterall, only a reciever, it NEVER transmits anything, unless you get the optional serial cable, hook it to a ham radio or a laptop, and have THAT piece of equipment transmit your position.  Or get a RINO with the FRS radio built in.

The gpsmap is the one I have the most experience with, as far as addon stuff it is extremely flexible.  With it's io port and built in software you can recieve depth and temp signals from a depth finder and display them on the gps, or send the location signal from the gps to an auto pilot in a boat for navigation.  Basically any equipment designed around the NEMA standard or several others can be interfaced with the unit.

There is a lot more but that should get you started.  Oh, Geocaching is a fun game for learning to use your gps, a scavanger hunt  that is world wide, you pick which you want to hunt.  http://www.geocaching.com/