Author Topic: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes  (Read 7352 times)

TechMan

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http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2014/02/ann_arbor_landlord_sets_home_a.html

Let me quote the pertinent part of the story:
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A landlord’s attempt to thaw frozen pipes with an arc welder Wednesday night resulted in a house fire and the displacement of two elderly residents from their home on the 1000 block of Pontiac Trail in Ann Arbor. “They were thawing some pipes with this welder. I’m not sure of that process, exactly, but somehow the electrical system back fed through the ground system, caught some electrical wires going up into the second story, and caught the attic and some wood insulation on fire in the back of the house,” said AAFD Battalion Chief Randy Menard.

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Brad Johnson

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2014, 04:53:03 PM »
Lemme guess, he saw someone do it on YouTube...

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zxcvbob

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 05:02:35 PM »
IIRC, the old Lincoln buzz boxes have instructions for using them to thaw pipes.
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RevDisk

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 05:10:34 PM »

Ann Arbor is a weird town to begin with.
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Ben

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2014, 05:13:39 PM »
I read the subject line as, "...tried to thaw frozen pies."  :laugh:
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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2014, 05:15:02 PM »
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and caught the attic and some wood insulation on fire

Huh?   ???
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Tallpine

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2014, 05:22:18 PM »
So did the fire thaw the pipes  ???
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TechMan

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2014, 05:59:25 PM »
So did the fire thaw the pipes  ???

That's my question as well.
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lupinus

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So did the fire thaw the pipes  ???
Be a bitch if only the second floor caught on fire and the pipes did, indeed, remain frozen. That'd be a cosmic FU not to be ignored.

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dm1333

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 07:02:44 PM »
Pure Michigan!

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2014, 08:56:55 PM »
Huh?   ???

Sawdust is used to insulate icehouses.  Why would it not work for houses?

And especially in a locale where wood product byproducts are plentiful?  Ya know, one known as "The Wood City".

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Bob F.

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 09:18:15 PM »
Back in the day, think winter of '76-'77, a welder was the way it was done. No Dummys, not striking an arc; electrodes on opposite ends of frozen section. Helleva lot of pipes thawed that way............
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dm1333

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2014, 09:25:53 PM »
Seems like a brazing torch would be safer.

Gewehr98

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2014, 09:56:22 PM »
As stated previously, it's actually how they do it, assuming you have iron pipes.

The arc welder electrodes are attached to the pipe, one at the street end, one at the house end.

The amperage heats the pipe, thawing the water inside. 

Very common technique, and you'll see a lot of municipal arc welding rigs thawing pipes in my neck of the woods over the last few weeks.



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zxcvbob

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2014, 09:55:02 AM »
Yeah, I'm not sure if it'll work with copper pipes, the resistance is too low.  But it shouldn't be dangerous to try...

It sounds like the landlord didn't have a good ground connection, so it completed the circuit thru the earth.  And hehad the amperage set too high (or was using a BIG ass welder.)  IIRC, you set the welder to the highest amperage that it can maintain 100% duty cycle -- typically 75 to 100 Amps for a small AC welder.  A 6 gauge grounding electrode conductor (the mostly likely victim) should be able to handle that w/o getting all that hot.
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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2014, 10:08:03 AM »
It will work for copper pipes too.Sounds to me like someone used a pipe as neutral for a 110 v circuit and that led to the back feed.
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geronimotwo

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2014, 04:44:42 PM »
a local plumber has a special variarc transformer that he uses to thaw copper lines. it has 50 ft leads, and is adjustable depending on how long the pipes are.  rather similar to and arc welder.
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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2014, 10:31:05 PM »
No way in hell I'd do it with my baby (she's a new style machine, engine driven inverter), but the older style welders can thaw pipes. I would not do it in a normal house, but underground pipes...if I was desperate...

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?38659-Using-welder-to-thaw-pipes



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cordex

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2014, 10:58:40 PM »
Had a plumber use a Hot Shot on my pipes once.  Same idea.

http://www.drainbrain.com/instructionspdf/HotShot%20300320400_1209.pdf

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2014, 11:29:03 PM »
Indeed, using an arc welder can thaw pipes.  Pipe thawers seem to be little more then high current, low voltage sources after all.

While passing voltage through a grounded conductor may seem dangerous and counter-intuitive, consider that most welders feature floating secondary outputs.  That is, there is no potential between either the welding lead or the ground clamp and actual earth ground.  Potential only exists between the ground clamp and the stinger.

Now, this doesn't mean that welding with an AC machine is inherently safe - if you have your ground clamped firmly to your welding table, and you're leaning on said table - there is probably good voltage potential between you and the stinger, even through your leathers.

That said, for the purposes of thawing pipes, it is my understanding that usage of an arc welder is frowned upon anymore, and for good reason.  Water pipes are not designed to be current carrying conductors - as such all sorts of interesting conditions can result when you apply a hundred amps to them.  You may end up with current carried through the earth ground to another section of pipe in unexpected ways, current going through the water heater in unexpected ways, current being coupled to grounded appliances with unexpected potential; all sorts of weirdness can result depending on the particular construction.  And god help you if your welder has any significant primary-secondary coupling.

Frankly, I wouldn't personally try it.  Too much liability.  If I had a pipe frozen between the street and the house, I would pay a plumber.  Even if a plumber fixes it with an AC-225 like I have in the garage, I suspect it's worth the cost because I'm also paying for them to eat the liability.  My insurance guy is a lot happier if, after the building burns down, he has someone carrying a mil in liability insurance to go after instead of little old me. 

Times I've had pipes frozen inside my dwelling, I've sorted it out with a heat gun owing to good access.

Gewehr98

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Re: Ann Arbor house catches fire when landlord tries to thaw frozen pipes
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2014, 12:38:42 AM »
Nick, around here it's actually the municipalities using the arc welders to thaw pipes.

So they can eat all the liability they want, at least the first time they thaw your pipes.

The first visit is free.  The second one you pay for, because they already warned you once. 
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