Author Topic: How to discriminate legally  (Read 13541 times)

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
How to discriminate legally
« on: May 05, 2016, 05:16:53 PM »
http://www.foxcarolina.com/story/31888456/tow-truck-owner-bernie-sanders

Quote
Greenville Attorney Steve Sumner weighed in on the situation saying,"We may not like it and we may not agree with it but I don't believe any laws were broken."

Sumner said unlike race, sexuality, and religion, political affiliation is not a protected class.

As was pointed out elsewhere, this should mean you could just ask potential customers if they support legislation and/or candidates that would force you to do work that violates your beliefs, and refuse service if they say yes.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2016, 08:08:24 PM »
Yup. Not a protected class.
Best example was a developer who would not sell houses to lawyers. He, obviously, got sued by a lawyer. The lawyer lost


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,317
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2016, 08:08:39 PM »
As was pointed out elsewhere, this should mean you could just ask potential customers if they support legislation and/or candidates that would force you to do work that violates your beliefs, and refuse service if they say yes.

Unless, of course, your work involves issuing marriage licenses or actually marrying people, in which case you are not allowed to discriminate against people whose beliefs violate your beliefs.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2016, 08:54:10 AM »
Unless, of course, your work involves issuing marriage licenses or actually marrying people, in which case you are not allowed to discriminate against people whose beliefs violate your beliefs.
For baking cakes or taking pictures

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2016, 09:37:00 AM »
Unless, of course, your work involves issuing marriage licenses or actually marrying people, in which case you are not allowed to discriminate against people whose beliefs violate your beliefs.

Not too many independent contractors or small business owners issue marriage licenses. 

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,807
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2016, 09:55:38 AM »
Quote
"Every business dealing in recent history with a socialist minded person I have not gotten paid," Shupe said. "Every time I deal with these people I get 'Berned' with an 'e' not a 'u'."
Not getting paid is a big motivator.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2016, 10:12:19 AM »
I'm totally ok with businesses refusing to do business for any reason.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2016, 10:25:25 AM »
Not too many independent contractors or small business owners issue marriage licenses.  

He has been discriminated against IIRC.  

By law he has to violate his conscience if he wants to keep his position with the government.

Secular egalitarianism is the state religion. You must bend your knee to the state as the only final authority. There are the people, who are all the same and equal, and the state; the state is more equal and is the final arbiter.

All other religion is a private matter that belongs in the box of your private thoughts, particularly traditional Christianity. It should not influence your daily life, particularly if you might expose someone to it by your deeds or words. You should be ashamed of your religious thought crimes. The state in its mercy will let you keep them...for now.

All hail the state.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2016, 10:32:59 AM »
He has been discriminated against IIRC.  

By law he has to violate his conscience if he wants to keep his position with the government.

Secular egalitarianism is the state religion. You must bend your knee to the state as the only final authority. There are the people, who are all the same and equal, and the state; the state is more equal and is the final arbiter.

All other religion is a private matter that belongs in the box of your private thoughts, particularly traditional Christianity. It should not influence your daily life, particularly if you might expose someone to it by your deeds or words. You should be ashamed of your religious thought crimes. The state in its mercy will let you keep them...for now.

All hail the state.

Sounds better in the original Italian:
Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2016, 10:58:47 AM »
By law he has to violate his conscience if he wants to keep his position with the government.

If you take the king's shilling, you are the king's bitch.  I'm more concerned with the right of small business owners and independent contractors to retain control over who gets the benefit of their labor and property.

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2016, 11:10:19 AM »
If you take the king's shilling, you are the king's bitch.  I'm more concerned with the right of small business owners and independent contractors to retain control over who gets the benefit of their labor and property.

You think small business and independent contractors will be spared the same fate as government employees? The military and government are the testing and proving grounds for the policies that are going to be foisted upon the population at large.

Your quaint notions about labor and property are cute considering you probably have zero philosophical grounds to support such notions. Post modernism demands progress, ie following the nihilistic philosophy to its logical conclusion.

Sorry, you owning anything including your labor just doesn't fit the new program.

The state owns (is) the economy.

Your labor is part of the economy.

The state owns your labor.

Your labor is your life.

The state owns you.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2016, 02:18:52 PM »
If you take the king's shilling, you are the king's bitch.  I'm more concerned with the right of small business owners and independent contractors to retain control over who gets the benefit of their labor and property.

My views on the matter are in line with KD5NRH.  In most cases the state was willing to let them get away with it until they started violating other people's beliefs and moved to block THEM from issuing the licenses, in line with law, either.  As long as they could still get licenses from the county(and in at least one case that was the ONLY place to get them in the state; state rules is that you got your license from the county of your residence), the lawsuits and such were minimal.

To put it another way - should we tolerate the same official refusing to issue hunting licenses per state law because her 'religion' is in line with greenpeace, PETA, and them types?

If you are an employee, you should do what your employer is paying you to do, within 'reasonable' limits.  If you're a Muslim and are so into it that you're unwilling to touch or sell packaged pork products, maybe employment in a grocery store or sub shop isn't for you.  If you're a Mormon that you're unwilling to sell alcohol, smokes, or porn, maybe a position in a truck stop isn't for you. 

You think small business and independent contractors will be spared the same fate as government employees? The military and government are the testing and proving grounds for the policies that are going to be foisted upon the population at large.

I view them as quite different.

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,348
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2016, 02:33:58 PM »
Guess who just got put into my phone as my preferred tow contact?
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,449
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2016, 02:38:07 PM »
If you're a Muslim and are so into it that you're unwilling to touch or sell packaged pork products, maybe employment in a grocery store or sub shop isn't for you.  If you're a Mormon that you're unwilling to sell alcohol, smokes, or porn, maybe a position in a truck stop isn't for you. 

If your job is marriage licensing, and you know what marriage is, issuing marriage licenses is no longer the job for you.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2016, 02:48:39 PM »
I view them as quite different.
Of course you do.

As a progressive you want to make sure that government employees tow the line and enforce secular egalitarianism, the religion of the left.

So in the government workplace only the moral code of progressives like you and KD5NRH are allowed. Basically telling all other groups, in particular Christians who hold traditional morality, that they are no longer welcome as government employees unless they pay fealty to the new moral code.

At least you are honest enough to admit you are allied with the forces that are tearing apart the fabric of the western world.  

For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2016, 02:52:44 PM »
If you're a Mormon that you're unwilling to sell alcohol, smokes, or porn, maybe a position in a truck stop isn't for you.

Actually, I've known a few Mormons who have worked in or even owned businesses that sell alcohol, tobacco and may have Penthouse behind the counter.  Avoiding something and not approving of others' use of it isn't the same as saying they shouldn't be allowed to have it, or refusing to profit from them obtaining it.  Now, I don't think I've ever heard of one owning a business where any of those is a primary product, but in general, people do expect to find those items in certain business types (convenience stores, grocery stores, newsstands, video rental, etc.) that aren't primarily geared toward them.

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2016, 04:23:28 PM »
If your job is marriage licensing, and you know what marriage is, issuing marriage licenses is no longer the job for you.

How bout if as an elected official you take an oath to uphold your states laws? And your state has a constitutional amendment that specifically says marriage is one man one woman?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2016, 04:55:25 PM »
If your job is marriage licensing, and you think you know what marriage is, issuing marriage licenses is no longer the job for you.

Corrected that for you.  You see, you and the clerks involved are getting confused.  Marriage to you is a religious thing.  Marriage to the government is a contract involving a license.  It's a lawyer type thing, or where a scientific 'theory' is a very different thing than a personal theory.

As a progressive you want to make sure that government employees tow the line and enforce secular egalitarianism, the religion of the left.

Now you're just getting insulting.  After years in the military, I expect employees to do their job.  Government employees to do their job as dictated by the laws of the state.  IE If it says to hand out marriage licenses, you hand out the marriage licenses per the applicable rules and regulations.

Quote
So in the government workplace only the moral code of progressives like you and KD5NRH are allowed. Basically telling all other groups, in particular Christians who hold traditional morality, that they are no longer welcome as government employees unless they pay fealty to the new moral code.

Did you miss the part where I was fine with them getting a pass so long as the work got done by somebody?  You also set up a strawman with the whole 'no longer welcome as government employees'.  I doubt the road department particularly cares about your views on marriage.  They could transfer into an office where they don't have to issue marriage licenses.

Quote
At least you are honest enough to admit you are allied with the forces that are tearing apart the fabric of the western world.

Well, I am on this board.  

Actually, I've known a few Mormons who have worked in or even owned businesses that sell alcohol, tobacco and may have Penthouse behind the counter.

Go back to the Muslim thing about handling pork.  I've known plenty of Muslims willing to handle the packaging and sell the stuff, even if they won't eat it themselves.  It's when they start wanting to be a special snowflake and not even touch it or impose their beliefs on others to the point that it interferes with the performance of their job that it becomes an issue.

I was just using the Mormans as a second example.  I know full well that many are willing to sell that stuff, and a few that aren't.  Just like there are Muslims who will happily ring up pork products and use alcohol based hand sanitizer, even as there's a few who won't.

Quote
Avoiding something and not approving of others' use of it isn't the same as saying they shouldn't be allowed to have it, or refusing to profit from them obtaining it.

I agree.  I consider myself a libertarian.  I might not be a good one, but it's the closest fitting party.  I do not smoke or drink, but I believe that people should be allowed to.  I think California raising the smoking age to 21 is a mistake.  

Quote
Now, I don't think I've ever heard of one owning a business where any of those is a primary product, but in general, people do expect to find those items in certain business types (convenience stores, grocery stores, newsstands, video rental, etc.) that aren't primarily geared toward them.

Well yes.  I'm just of the thinking that if a store sells smokes, they're generally a small but important byline - they're higher profit than most of the rest of the stuff in the store.  The owner isn't going to want customers trying to guess when Employee X is on the counter because he won't sell them.  

How bout if as an elected official you take an oath to uphold your states laws? And your state has a constitutional amendment that specifically says marriage is one man one woman?

In that case they shouldn't be issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples.  Where it gets complicated is when the courts, the designated interpreters of that constitution, say it isn't valid.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,449
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2016, 05:00:20 PM »
Corrected that for you.  You see, you and the clerks involved are getting confused.  Marriage to you is a religious thing.  Marriage to the government is a contract involving a license.  It's a lawyer type thing, or where a scientific 'theory' is a very different thing than a personal theory.


Those dogs do not hunt. You can't blame religion or "personal theories" for the ubiquitous heterosexuality of marriage.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

KD5NRH

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,926
  • I'm too sexy for you people.
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2016, 05:11:09 PM »
How bout if as an elected official you take an oath to uphold your states laws? And your state has a constitutional amendment that specifically says marriage is one man one woman?

The drawback to those oaths is that they're not locked in to the current laws; you have to be prepared to either continue to follow laws as they change or resign the position for which you took the oath.

So in the government workplace only the moral code of progressives like you and KD5NRH are allowed.

Nope.  In a workplace, only the moral code of the employer is truly relevant.  If you're a sole proprietor, then you should have the absolute right to set the moral code to which everyone must adhere.  In a partnership, (especially at the extreme of a democratic government that is - in theory - just a grossly unprofitable partnership with 300 million partners, most of whom don't actually work there) there will have to be major, and often ugly compromises in establishing a single moral code for all employees.

Go back to the Muslim thing about handling pork.  I've known plenty of Muslims willing to handle the packaging and sell the stuff, even if they won't eat it themselves.  It's when they start wanting to be a special snowflake and not even touch it or impose their beliefs on others to the point that it interferes with the performance of their job that it becomes an issue.

And that's one of those cases where the employer should be asking up front as a part of the application if you are willing and able to do each of the normally expected tasks, with a focus on things like handling known allergens and items known to be objectionable to major religious groups.  Then they need the lawyers and the guts to stand behind firing someone for telling a substantial lie on the application.  When job circumstances change after hire, then look at accommodating the employee, but if, for example a non-observant Jew has a sudden...uhhh...(what do Jews have instead of come-to-Jesus moments?) then the employee should be the one asking whether they can continue with what they originally agreed to, or leave of their own volition if the employer is unwilling to alter the agreement upon request.

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2016, 05:29:22 PM »
Those dogs do not hunt. You can't blame religion or "personal theories" for the ubiquitous heterosexuality of marriage.

Again - to the government 'marriage' is a contract, not a religious term.  Contract terms can be changed.  Personally, if you want to get married, find a priest or whatever, the government should only do civil unions. Separation of church and state.

That being said, you also have dogs that don't hunt.  What affair of yours is the marriage of people who are not you, your relatives, or your religion?

That's not a progressive view, by the way, that's a libertarian view.  What others do that don't affect you beyond your desire to stick your nose into their affairs shouldn't matter.  Are they harming people other than themselves?  No?  Leave them be.

The drawback to those oaths is that they're not locked in to the current laws; you have to be prepared to either continue to follow laws as they change or resign the position for which you took the oath.

Life sucks.  Sometimes you have to leave your comfort zone, or perhaps that guaranteed job isn't quite so guaranteed as you thought.

Quote
Nope.  In a workplace, only the moral code of the employer is truly relevant.  If you're a sole proprietor, then you should have the absolute right to set the moral code to which everyone must adhere.  In a partnership, (especially at the extreme of a democratic government that is - in theory - just a grossly unprofitable partnership with 300 million partners, most of whom don't actually work there) there will have to be major, and often ugly compromises in establishing a single moral code for all employees.

I agree.

Quote
but if, for example a non-observant Jew has a sudden...uhhh...(what do Jews have instead of come-to-Jesus moments?)

With all religions, I'd go with words like 'radicalization', or 'fundamentalization'.  You see, I've learned that Muslims in Muslim dominated countries are often LESS religious than the special snowflakes here, because they can't afford to be.  They're taking advantage of their religious freedom here to be even more fundie than most of the fundies back home.

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,449
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2016, 05:59:45 PM »
Again - to the government 'marriage' is a contract, not a religious term.  Contract terms can be changed.  Personally, if you want to get married, find a priest or whatever, the government should only do civil unions. Separation of church and state.

 :rofl:  There's nothing religious about the fact that marriage is heterosexual. You're the one who keeps bringing religion into it. Empirically, factually; cultures with differing attitudes about sex, sexuality, religion, and everything else still know/knew that marriage is predicated on a heterosexual relationship (even when individual participants were homosexual).


Quote
That being said, you also have dogs that don't hunt.  What affair of yours is the marriage of people who are not you, your relatives, or your religion?

That's not a progressive view, by the way, that's a libertarian view.  What others do that don't affect you beyond your desire to stick your nose into their affairs shouldn't matter.  Are they harming people other than themselves?  No?  Leave them be.

Then why are you arguing for the government to be involved? I continue to :rofl:
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2016, 07:49:56 PM »
:rofl:  There's nothing religious about the fact that marriage is heterosexual.

And there's very little non-religious keeping it that way. 

Quote
Then why are you arguing for the government to be involved? I continue to :rofl:

Recognition of the current state of affairs shouldn't imply approval of it.  We also need some sort of governmental recognition of pair-bonding so long as the government is handing out benefits for it and having it be codified into the legal system for things like custody, medical rights(power of attorney), inheritance, etc...

Again, what's the bug up your butt about the flavors of junk in somebody's drawers when it comes to them signing a particular contract between each other?  It's not like you're the one licking them.   [barf]

Ron

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,882
  • Like a tree planted by the rivers of water
    • What I believe ...
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2016, 08:02:07 PM »
The downstream affect of codifying the perversion as normal marriage is that it will further erode the right of freedom of association and then (sooner rather than) later the freedom of religion.

Proprietors of businesses are already forced to associate with folks they would prefer not to deal with and religious institutions are next.

Eventually churches will have to bow to the authority of the state and violate their conscience. They will be forced to recognize same sex couples as married, perform the marriages and will be persecuted by the state if they preach against homosexuality.

It's not about anyones junk or what they lick. It is about the power of the state.

You fail as a libertarian.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

Firethorn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,789
  • Where'd my explosive space modulator go?
Re: How to discriminate legally
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2016, 08:23:38 PM »
The downstream affect of codifying the perversion as normal marriage is that it will further erode the right of freedom of association and then (sooner rather than) later the freedom of religion.

Okay, you're going to have to explain the first to me better.  How does letting queers marry erode 'freedom of association'?  Because it seems the opposite to me.

Now, freedom of religion does have some points for it - but I think that you have to be careful.  I think that imposing restrictions on the actual freedom of one group in order to prevent theoretical losses in the freedom of others requires an extraordinary amount of evidence

Would I be correct in assuming that your evidence of the latter would be businesses being forced to provide services to gay couples doing things?  Because, if so, there's the fun with Hobby Lobby getting it's way, and the idea that I don't support going that far, though I acknowledge that it has in hyper-liberal areas.  Remember - libertarian, not liberal.  I'm generally trying to maximize freedom for everybody.

Quote
Proprietors of businesses are already forced to associate with folks they would prefer not to deal with and religious institutions are next.

Should have read ahead, I guess... ;)  BTW, the religious institutions have the 800 pound gorilla of the constitution behind them.

Quote
Eventually churches will have to bow to the authority of the state and violate their conscience. They will be forced to recognize same sex couples as married, perform the marriages and will be persecuted by the state if they preach against homosexuality.

That, I think, would get slapped down rather hard by the supremes.

Quote
You fail as a libertarian.

Meh.  The strawmen people keep setting up are libertarian failures.  Should I start making snarky comments about how you guys are just pissed that you can't harass people doing things you don't agree with?   :old: