Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Angel Eyes on May 02, 2017, 04:44:47 PM
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/john-boch/springfield-armory-rock-river-arms-made-campaign-contributions-to-anti-gun-rights-politicians/
The gun community continues to react to news of a deal made by Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms to carve out an exemption from a state licensing scheme (SB-1657). Both Springfield and Rock River Arms have issued statements denying any knowledge of the deal negotiated on their behalf by the lobbyist for the Illinois Firearms Manufacturing Association (IFMA). An organization funded by Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms.
We can now reveal that Springfield and Rock River have, through IFMA, donated tens of thousands of dollars to Illinois anti-gun politicians over the last several years.
Details at the link.
I don't know how reliable TTAG is as a source, but if even half of this is true . . . . :mad:
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/john-boch/springfield-armory-rock-river-arms-made-campaign-contributions-to-anti-gun-rights-politicians/
Details at the link.
I don't know how reliable TTAG is as a source, but if even half of this is true . . . . :mad:
I think TTAG is a pretty reliable source and I believe what I've read about Springfield and RRA.
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Or maybe not...
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/05/01/springfield-armory-rock-river-arms-oppose-gun-dealer-licensing-act/
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Or maybe yes ... sorta ... in a manner of speaking ... somewhat.
In 2009, we [Rock RiverArms] partnered with other manufacturers to form an organization geared towards representing our interests – The Illinois Firearms Manufacturers Association (IFMA).
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If true, then the Illinois Firearms Manufacturers Association (IMFA) alone is to blame for the group’s decision to remove opposition to the bill, and early assertions made by another firearms news site claiming that Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms directly and intentionally screwed over the citizens of their state as well as smaller manufacturers and gun dealers, would almost appear to be libelous.
So Springfield and Rock River were instrumental in creating the IFMA, and the IFMA was representing them when they cut the deal. And, let's face it, the deal DID further their interests. If, indeed, the IFMA cut this deal without consulting its constituency, then shame on the IFMA. On the other hand, the skeptic in me wonders of SA and RRA would still be opposed to the legislation if news hadn't filtered out about the exemption.
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....
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Consensus here in Illinois is that RRA and SA wanted their special carve-out with the hope that no one would notice.
Then someone (IIRC, it was the Illinois State Rifle Association), found out. And then the defecation storm hit the social media rotating oscillator.
At first SA President and Owner came out with a wishy-washy statement that tried to play both sides.
Social media anger and outrage intensified. Orders were being cancelled right and left. It was getting very ugly, very fast.
So they have back pedaled most ricky-tick. The bill still has to make it through the house and the IFMA has withdrawn their neutral stance, back to against. Along with thousands of gunowners putting in against witness slips... since this is the "hot" issue now.
If it doesn't die in the house, Rauner will (hopefully) veto it. (If he wants to have any chance at being re-elected he will. Signing this will be signing his own death warrant).
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Social media anger and outrage intensified. Orders were being cancelled right and left. It was getting very ugly, very fast.
New store locally was having "Springfield Days" as part of it's grand opening festivities. Second day, nope, canceled (https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1527776003920470&id=538309076200506). (Genesceo is an hour and a half away, so says the google.)
And real soon now, like tomorrow, I will be dropping by my rep's office.
Springfield always has a table out the club's open house. Chat, try out stuff. We'll see.
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The guys at Military Arms Channel have a good writeup about the events.
Here is their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/militaryarms/
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Or maybe not...
https://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2017/05/01/springfield-armory-rock-river-arms-oppose-gun-dealer-licensing-act/
An out and out lie. Too little, too late. Their claim that the lobbyist and IL "industry group" went rogue on them is bunk.
Especially seeing as RRA and SA's officers are board members of the actual group in question.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/IFMA-Form-990-2012.pdf
Scroll to the last page of this .pdf file on the Illinois Firearms Manufacturers Association IFMA. The names are the CEO's/Owners of Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms. The one guy Jay Keller, who was paid $50,000 as the "Executive Director" was their paid lobbyist. They're trying to create the impression this larger Illinois "Industry Group" was doing things they wouldn't have approved of if they were paying attention, except they are the group. Lock, stock, and barrel. The IFMA was probably set up for the sole purpose of creating this carve-out for them, and to try and create a cutout, hoping nobody would look up the filings and figure out who was doing it.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/john-boch/springfield-armory-rock-river-arms-made-campaign-contributions-to-anti-gun-rights-politicians/
I feel bad for the employees, but both companies need to be destroyed, and Zumbo'ed good, long, and hard. My prediction is that RRA will go under, they're on the verge of it already, and SA will survive, but in diminished form, and probably be bought up by somebody in the coming year or two.
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The drama continues: http://blog.springfield-armory.com/springfield-armory-statement-regarding-gun-dealer-licensing-act-sb1657-0 (http://blog.springfield-armory.com/springfield-armory-statement-regarding-gun-dealer-licensing-act-sb1657-0)
6PM today
The Executive Director of the Illinois Firearm Manufacturers Association (IFMA) acted without our prior knowledge and against our principles and those of the industry as a whole with respect to the Gun Dealer Licensing Act. We no longer have confidence in IFMA and after speaking to other directors we have made the decision to sever all ties with the organization, effective immediately.
I take full responsibility for my failure of oversight in this case and deeply apologize to my employees, customers and industry partners for the distraction and divisiveness this situation has caused within our tight-knit community. Our industry has always stood strong and fought fiercely together in the past and I am personally committed to defeating this harmful legislation. To that end, I have pledged to the NRA that we will bring the full resources of my company to bear in this fight.
We are not new to this battle, Springfield Armory has fought and defeated legislation like this in Illinois for decades. We are wholeheartedly against this bill and will fight shoulder-to-shoulder with the NRA, National Shooting Sports Foundation, the Illinois State Rifle Association and others to see it defeated as the unnecessary and harmful overreach that it is.
We want to assure all Americans, like us, who fight to protect the Second Amendment that we and our industry partners will leave no stone unturned to defeat this bill.
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At least they know how much deep *expletive deleted*it they're in. But they're still trying to sell the wider lie of omission trying to create the impression the IMFA screwed up without their knowledge. When they are the IFMA, and it was SA's and RRA's show entirely.
I urge everyone to pass along on other gun forums or FB groups that .PDF I linked to above, and explain that they are the IMFA, they created it. And it was probably created to get the carve-out from the IL anti gun legislators.
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LOL... it gets BETTER. :rofl:
http://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/03/16/Salvador-based-Army-colonel-indicted-on-bribery-charges/5406606027600/
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LOL... it gets BETTER. :rofl:
http://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/03/16/Salvador-based-Army-colonel-indicted-on-bribery-charges/5406606027600/
That date on that is 1989.
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That date on that is 1989.
I'm aware.
So a CEO involved in foreign bribery and chicanery with .mil contracts who only escaped by the skin of his teeth by turning states evidence...
Creating his own lobbying group to get sweetheart deals from anti gun legislators, then denying it by trying to claim they didn't know what the group was doing, when he's one of only a handful of officers in that group...
Well, I think even if it is 28 year old news, it speaks to character, honesty, and patterns.
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I don't know if they will be done for. Even Smith and Wesson and Colt(for a time anyways; until they turned idiots again and may be done now.) didn't go out of business after going with the antis vs. guowners. However I think these two are going to be bleeding for awhile. Gun owners tend to treat traitors pretty harshly. I know I won't be buying any Springfield or RRA Firearms or items for at least a long while and managements changes would need to happen, if ever again. I was a regular purchaser of Springfield Firearms and have a few RRA Firearms.
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I don't know if they will be done for. Even Smith and Wesson and Colt(for a time anyways; until they turned idiots again and may be done now.) didn't go out of business after going with the antis vs. guowners. However I think these two are going to be bleeding for awhile. Gun owners tend to treat traitors pretty harshly. I know I won't be buying any Springfield or RRA Firearms or items for at least a long while and managements changes would need to happen, if ever again. I was a regular purchaser of Springfield Firearms and have a few RRA Firearms.
They are replaceable.
What does Rock River make now? I remember them as being into 1911s and AR-15s. Plenty of companies making either.
Likewise, Springfield's unique offering is the XD and variants. It would be too bad if support went away, but...
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They are replaceable.
What does Rock River make now? I remember them as being into 1911s and AR-15s. Plenty of companies making either.
Likewise, Springfield's unique offering is the XD and variants. It would be too bad if support went away, but...
They import the XD. I don't know about all the variants. But I bet someone else would pick up that pistol line, seeing how many SA sells.
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They import the XD.
I'm well aware of that. "Made in Croatia" on each of mine.
I don't know about all the variants.
By which I meant, XD, XDM, XDS and now XDE.
But I bet someone else would pick up that pistol line, seeing how many SA sells.
Probably. My point is it wouldn't be the end of the world if buyers ended up needing to go to some other brand of europlastic.
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Probably. My point is it wouldn't be the end of the world if buyers ended up needing to go to some other brand of europlastic.
If the Turks don't already make a clone that's just as good and half to two-thirds the price ... they will within six months.
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If the Turks don't already make a clone that's just as good and half to two-thirds the price ... they will within six months.
Well, the Canik models are supposed to be pretty reliable pistols.
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An out and out lie. Too little, too late. Their claim that the lobbyist and IL "industry group" went rogue on them is bunk.
Especially seeing as RRA and SA's officers are board members of the actual group in question.
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/IFMA-Form-990-2012.pdf
Scroll to the last page of this .pdf file on the Illinois Firearms Manufacturers Association IFMA. The names are the CEO's/Owners of Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms. The one guy Jay Keller, who was paid $50,000 as the "Executive Director" was their paid lobbyist. They're trying to create the impression this larger Illinois "Industry Group" was doing things they wouldn't have approved of if they were paying attention, except they are the group. Lock, stock, and barrel. The IFMA was probably set up for the sole purpose of creating this carve-out for them, and to try and create a cutout, hoping nobody would look up the filings and figure out who was doing it.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/05/john-boch/springfield-armory-rock-river-arms-made-campaign-contributions-to-anti-gun-rights-politicians/
I feel bad for the employees, but both companies need to be destroyed, and Zumbo'ed good, long, and hard. My prediction is that RRA will go under, they're on the verge of it already, and SA will survive, but in diminished form, and probably be bought up by somebody in the coming year or two.
I think those director positions are likely symbolic. I would be curious to know who makes day to day decisions with the IFMA group as well as with SA and RRA.
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I also bet every other company is seeing this and taking a closer look at what they are doing for lobbying such. Probably a good reminder for them in the long run. Considering they all were just going for the pistol contract, they probably all gave to politicians from both sides last year.
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I think those director positions are likely symbolic. I would be curious to know who makes day to day decisions with the IFMA group as well as with SA and RRA.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fseh6p.gif&hash=6db3e36c3c657948fa2d5c72d763398008c4158f)
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fseh6p.gif&hash=6db3e36c3c657948fa2d5c72d763398008c4158f)
Most board of directors for non-profits meet twice a year and are rarely involved in the day-to-day running of the non-profit.
It doesn't mean they weren't involved, but it also means they are not necessarily lying about being surprised.
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Most board of directors for non-profits meet twice a year and are rarely involved in the day-to-day running of the non-profit.
It doesn't mean they weren't involved, but it also means they are not necessarily lying about being surprised.
Not when there's only 5 people in the entire organization. Two of the owners/founders of Springfield Armory, and two of the owners/founders of Rock River Arms, and the 5th is the lobbying consultant they're paying to do the actual lobbying.
So we have to believe the four of them ponied up $50k and then never checked up on what the guy was doing, and that they simply gave him marching orders, something vague like "Go do good gun stuff in Springfield for us!"?
BTW... I've got this bridge for sale...
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Here is their 2013 990 https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/IFMA-Form-990-2013.pdf (https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/IFMA-Form-990-2013.pdf) They claim to have dissolved that organization and transfer its assets to another similar organization.
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Not when there's only 5 people in the entire organization. Two of the owners/founders of Springfield Armory, and two of the owners/founders of Rock River Arms, and the 5th is the lobbying consultant they're paying to do the actual lobbying.
So we have to believe the four of them ponied up $50k and then never checked up on what the guy was doing, and that they simply gave him marching orders, something vague like "Go do good gun stuff in Springfield for us!"?
BTW... I've got this bridge for sale...
Ah, my mistake. When you said to scroll to the bottom, I assumed there were more names. Your assessment is likely spot on.
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Considering the NRA meeting was just going on, I think surprise is understandable (for what happened the last few days). They give the lobbyist money to do that stuff for them so they don't have to worry about. What they (or the lobbyist) were likely doing is playing both sides. Opposing the bill yet trying to get a cut out for themselves at the same time in case it passed. The lobbyist screwed up either on his own or with their input. How much of a direct hand the CEO's had in it is a question.
I would be happy if they just get it fixed, make sure the bill gets killed, and do some good make up work for gun rights. However, based on what I see in a lot of places there is a lynch mob forming so I don't know what they can do to recover.
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Ah, my mistake. When you said to scroll to the bottom, I assumed there were more names. Your assessment is likely spot on.
IMO, all that means is they formed a political entity to pay this one lobbyist to represent them in the state capitol. The assumption being made is they knew every little thing the lobbyist was doing and approved it. As I said above, I am sure they had the guy playing both sides a bit. What I don't know is if they told him to go neutral on the bill after they got their cut out. I don't know if we will ever know those details for certain.
Is there is a state level gun rights organization in Illinois? I am curious if there are any other state level gun rights people who can weigh in on this.
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I just noticed an email this evening. I am on Springfield Armory's email list. They forwarded an NRA-ILA alert about the bill in the Illinois legislature asking residents to contact their reps.
We will see what else they do.
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Either way, the FN 509 was catching my interest more than the XDe. Good thing I guess.
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IMO, all that means is they formed a political entity to pay this one lobbyist to represent them in the state capitol. The assumption being made is they knew every little thing the lobbyist was doing and approved it. As I said above, I am sure they had the guy playing both sides a bit. What I don't know is if they told him to go neutral on the bill after they got their cut out. I don't know if we will ever know those details for certain.
Is there is a state level gun rights organization in Illinois? I am curious if there are any other state level gun rights people who can weigh in on this.
Yes, the Illinois State Rifle Association (ISRA). Again, if IIRC, it was the ISRA* that discovered that the IFMA has gone from "Oppose" to "Neutral" after the carve out amendment was added, which helped the bill to pass the State Senate.%
I got several e-mails about this from the NRA, ISRA and Illinois Carry, along with some other smaller groups.
From Illinois Carry at 7:04PM on 30 April:
One bill that did move from Senate to House before the deadline is SB1657 Gun Dealer Licensing. Despite our best efforts, this bill took another step in the process of becoming law. But it isn't law yet. There's still time to stop it, and stop it we must!
The Illinois Firearms Manufacturers Association, representing Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms, seems to have negotiated a carve out to exempt manufacturers from licensing under this bill, resulting in the association changing their opposition to a neutral stance. This change very possibly gave the sponsor the number of votes needed to pass the bill.
Our efforts against SB1657 must be unified and we urge Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms to stand with us. We ask them to do the right thing and oppose this attack on their firearm dealers and the millions of customers who made them great.
Direct, personal contact by the CEOs of Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms to each and every House Representative, correcting their position to “oppose”, would be a great help to all. Call the CEOs of these two manufacturers and ask them to stand with Illinois gun shops and gun owners. Ask them to do everything within their power to show all state legislators they stand united with us now and in the future.
Rock River Arms: 309-792-5780 or 866-980-7625
Springfield Armory: 309-944-5631 or 800-680-6866
Beginning tomorrow please also start calling your State House Representatives in their district offices, letting them know you oppose gun dealer licensing regardless of who has been carved out and who hasn't.
*- Again, IIRC the ISRA has three lobbyists in Springfield. The NRA also has one. But he's "Part-time" as he also is the lobbyist for the Operating Engineers' Union.
%- Going back and checking the e-mails I got show that it actually was Illinois Carry that first blew the whistle on the SA and RRA. Mea Culpa.
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I got that email too, Mech. Sort of on the nose, but better late than never.
As far as the various assumptions as to what they knew and when they knew it - I don't see the answer as necessarily obvious.
First of all, even had it applied to them this bill wouldn't be that big of a deal to large manufactures. The compliance overhead and additional cost would be peanuts compared to the rest of their costs. As with most legislation, this bill really hurts the little guys the most.
Secondly, the members have worked with this lobbyist for years. Up until this broke, they may have trusted him to take care of things. Not all companies are really hands-on with their lobbyists (especially when it is one shared by a group) and in a case where the law would be at worst a minor impact to the members I'm doubting the membership spent very many clock cycles micromanaging.
All told, while it is certainly possible that Springfield and RRA were aware of and approved of the lobbyist's decisions, it is equally if not more plausible that their interaction with him this session was limited to: "What's on the docket this year? Okay, that's not great. See what you can do about it."
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Back in law school, we had a lobbiest come and talk about his work. He went on about a great situation he was involved in how he went to a junior legislator to get a bill introduced that was in opposition to the position of a group he represented. He then bragged about how he went to the group, informed them of the bill, and then got paid a bonus when he lobbied successfully to get the bill killed before it made it out of committee. Sometimes I wonder how much proposed legislation is generated by lobbiest just playing legislators so the lobbying firms can make money. Kind of wonder if this is why some companies play both sides of the fence.
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Most board of directors for non-profits meet twice a year and are rarely involved in the day-to-day running of the non-profit.
It doesn't mean they weren't involved, but it also means they are not necessarily lying about being surprised.
This is not a typical non-profit. This is an organization that was created by firearms manufacturers for the express purpose of lobbying for the [member] firearms manufacturers.
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*- Again, IIRC the ISRA has three lobbyists in Springfield. The NRA also has one. But he's "Part-time" as he also is the lobbyist for the Operating Engineers' Union.
Is Todd V. back to splitting his time between the two? Last I recall from 3-4 years ago was that he quit the one to focus on NRA's interests full time.
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Is Todd V. back to splitting his time between the two? Last I recall from 3-4 years ago was that he quit the one to focus on NRA's interests full time.
As far as I know he's still an Operating Engineer. I do know that he put the Operating Engineer stuff on the back burner a few years back, when Concealed Carry was being forced upon the state by the 7th District (also there wasn't much, if any legislation affecting the OE's that year).
He's a member at ASC, if I see him there I'll ask him.
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Either way, the FN 509 was catching my interest more than the XDe. Good thing I guess.
they advertise on a local station i catch the rush limbaugh show on at work, i have been meaning to at least look it up because i want gun makers to advertise more.
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The main thing I am waiting for on the FN 509 is to see one personally and see how large it is compared others guns and how it feels in the hand. I have an FNX 9mm and a CZ P-07. I am not sure it will do anything those don't do. The collector in me wants to buy them all though. =)
I have seen some youtube stuff and other commentary on this whole event. I agree that SA was playing both sides of the fence. I expect them to take hard action to make up for this. I heard one writer call for the senior leadership to resign. That would likely help with a lot of people. I hate to go as far as saying I will never buy another one of their guns because I probably will at some point in the future. I guess we will see what happens after when it gets to 2 weeks old and the typical news attention cycle focuses on something else.
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I don't know if SA is now a publicly traded company, but the head honchos are brothers and they are the people who founded the company. Not likely we'll see them resign any time soon.
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Lee N. Field,
I saw Todd yesterday at Pub West, after we had spent the day teaching shotgun at our Youth Program (he had been over on one of the rifle/pistol ranges shooting two-gun)) and asked him.
You were correct, he and OE's, went their separate ways in 2013, although he did do some "freelance" work for them for the roads amendment.