Author Topic: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group  (Read 13462 times)

De Selby

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2008, 08:37:11 PM »
So, they are not (yet) terrorists, they are just traitors.  rolleyes You win 1 point on semantics and lose 10 points on patriotism. Your balance: -9. Having the right priorities: priceless.  angel

I think it is beautifully ironic that just 60 years ago, a bunch of innocent people were jailed, while today far more numerous and guilty walk free. shocked

Wait, so you think it ought to be illegal to support left wing policies in the US?

Or it should be against the law to advocate primarily on behalf of one race/ethnic group above others?

Seems like handing the government the right to define "acceptable positions", imo.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

CAnnoneer

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2008, 08:45:48 PM »

Wait, so you think it ought to be illegal to support left wing policies in the US?

=jumping to unsubstantiated conclusion.

Quote
Or it should be against the law to advocate primarily on behalf of one race/ethnic group above others?

= twisting the truth. We both know that is not what they are doing.

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Seems like handing the government the right to define "acceptable positions", imo.

We call such definitions "laws". We vote people into office to write them and pass them, then we follow them. Thus, being a traitor is not an acceptable position, no. Just as it is not acceptable to do all sorts of other illegal things.

If you do not think what they are doing ought to be illegal, that is another story and certainly worthy of discussion. As is, it is.

De Selby

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2008, 08:47:52 PM »
So what is it that you would consider a jailable offense here in the activities of La Raza and affiliates?

Or was that treason comment not directed at them?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2008, 08:52:29 PM »
its only when you advocate in a way that makes him uncomfortable that you are a terrorist...er i mean traitor.  if its a position he espouses you are a hwero of the revolution
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

CAnnoneer

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2008, 08:59:50 PM »
So what is it that you would consider a jailable offense here in the activities of La Raza and affiliates?

Or was that treason comment not directed at them?

Yes, it was. The quickest answer is they are guilty many times over of most of what longeyes pointed out in legal terms just a few posts over. Those things are jailable offenses. A longer answer is that what they are advocating and working towards is the dissolution of the USA as a country, or at the least, the surrender of large portions of it to a foreign country. In what world would that not constitute treason??

I feel like I am stating 1+1=2. Why is this necessary?

CAnnoneer

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2008, 09:03:58 PM »
its only when you advocate in a way that makes him uncomfortable that you are a terrorist...er i mean traitor.  if its a position he espouses you are a hwero of the revolution

I cannot say I do not deserve a comment like that. There are issues on which I disagree with the current system of laws. However, that does not make it unreasonable for me to insist that certain laws be followed as written. Moreover, it is disingenuous to criticize me that way when we all know that the respective laws make sense, are in the best interests of the country, and would not be changed anytime soon by legal means. That is one of the things that pro-illegals never want to own up to - that many points of their agenda can only be forwarded by illegal and undemocratic means, IN SPITE OF rather than in accordance to current laws on the books.

De Selby

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2008, 09:04:32 PM »
Quote
Yes, it was. The quickest answer is they are guilty many times over of most of what longeyes pointed out in legal terms just a few posts over. Those things are jailable offenses.

I'm sorry, but there is no possible way to read that statute and then conclude that political rallies in support of immigration reform constitute a crime.  That's why no one has ever been charged for this supposed "crime"-it doesn't exist, because lobbying to change laws you don't like does not constitute a crime against those laws.

Quote
A longer answer is that what they are advocating and working towards is the dissolution of the USA as a country, or at the least, the surrender of large portions of it to a foreign country. In what world would that not constitute treason??

In a world where the freedom to advocate a different government and different laws is the law of the land, that would not be treason, of course.  And that world is a reality here in the good old US of A.

You might want to read the law, FYI:  http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/08/usc_sec_08_00001324----000-.html
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

CAnnoneer

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2008, 09:14:17 PM »

I'm sorry, but there is no possible way to read that statute and then conclude that political rallies in support of immigration reform constitute a crime.  That's why no one has ever been charged for this supposed "crime"-it doesn't exist, because lobbying to change laws you don't like does not constitute a crime against those laws.

People have not been charged for the same reason that our borders are not secured and our internal enforcement is dragging their feet - because of undue political pressure, not because of what is legal or not. Lack of enforcement cannot be used as sufficient proof of legality.

As far as how the law is read, you are free to believe what you wish, just as you are free to believe there are five lights over the Cardassian's head. I and others see four lights.

Another simple proof of illegality is that it is aiding and abetting a crime. Since breaking our immigration laws is a crime, anyone aiding and abetting illegals is breaking the law as well.

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In a world where the freedom to advocate a different government and different laws is the law of the land, that would not be treason, of course.  And that world is a reality here in the good old US of A.

We both know they go far beyond "advocating". I would also point out that if we were talking about a neo-Nazi organization, you'd be on top of them like fly on stink. In the same way as Neo-Nazis are protected by 1A until they entice people to violence, La Raza is protected by 1A until they aid and abett illegals, intimidate officials and private citizens, and entice separatism. We both know they have passed that line for a long time now.

De Selby

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2008, 09:19:30 PM »


We both know they go far beyond "advocating". I would also point out that if we were talking about a neo-Nazi organization, you'd be on top of them like fly on stink. In the same way as Neo-Nazis are protected by 1A until they entice people to violence, La Raza is protected by 1A until they aid and abett illegals, intimidate officials and private citizens, and entice separatism. We both know they have passed that line for a long time now.

Please note that the quote above in Longeyes's post isn't the statute, it's a highly slanted summary.  Click on the link to read the actual law an you'll see what I mean about it not even being close to a crime to hold rallies in support of immigration reform.

And no, I wouldn't be all over letting the government tell me what I can and cannot believe in order to stop neo-Nazis.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

longeyes

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2008, 09:03:32 PM »
The time to "rally for immigration reform" is BEFORE 20 million-plus illegal aliens are encamped inside your society.  "Immigration reform" means aiding and abetting the legalization of people who have no right to be in this country in the first place.

"Highly slanted summary?"  As if we all don't know exactly what La Raza's agenda is.  Come on. 

The voice of the American citizenry is being denied in favor of condoning lawlessness.  This is an unholy alliance between big chunks of government and business and it should be called what it is: tyranny, a form of coup d'etat that subverts our sacred and essential principles of republican governance.  This kind of thing can only go on so long before the massive betrayal leads to the catastrophic rupture of the basic TRUST on which a society like ours rests.  We are not far from that point, and when it comes, general barbarity will be the rule rather than the unhappy exception.

"Domari nolo."

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Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

longeyes

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2008, 06:45:31 AM »
What's McCain's position on the following?

What Does Granting Amnesty Have to Do With Funding Our Troops in Iraq? ( NOTHING! )
townhall.com ^ | May 16, 2008 | Ira Mehlman

Posted on 05/17/2008 6:47:22 AM PDT by kellynla

There is an unwritten rule in Congress that the appropriations process should not be used to pass major legislation. So when the Senate Appropriations Committee makes an exception to this rule, you can bet that they are doing so only to deal with some burning crisis.

For the Senate Appropriations Committee to break with tradition, the interests at stake must be so compelling that circumstances demand that the cumbersome legislative process be bypassed and that the issue be dealt with immediately. And when the legislation gets tacked on to not just any old appropriations bill, but an emergency supplemental appropriations bill to fund our servicemen and women fighting in Iraq, one can assume that the most vital national interests hang in the balance.

What were the compelling interests that led the august Senate Appropriations Committee to include major legislation as part of the military spending bill on Thursday? Amnesty for illegal aliens, and lots of new foreign workers for powerful business interests.

In one afternoon, the Appropriations Committee approved amnesty for 1.35 million illegal alien agricultural workers, and made available an additional 650,000 skilled and unskilled foreign guest workers over the next three years. Thats 2 million new, or newly legalized, foreign workers entering our labor force over the next three years  even as our economy has been losing jobs.

The 2 million figure does not include the dependents of the amnesty recipients or new workers who could be admitted under existing agricultural guest worker programs. Under the agricultural amnesty  written by Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) at the behest of the California agricultural lobby  the spouses of amnesty recipients will also be authorized to compete with American workers for jobs in any sector of our labor market. Nor does it include the potentially unlimited number of new guest workers agricultural employers will be able to import under a streamlined H-2A program that requires the Department of Labor to issue visas within seven days of an employers request.

Just to be extra sure that the agriculture industry will get their workers as cheaply as possible, Sen. Feinstein threw in a provision that freezes wages for these farm workers at 2007 levels.

While the Feinstein amendment offers senators a fig leaf to avoid the dreaded A-Word (thats A-M-N-E-S-T-Y) by legalizing these workers for only five years, the sunset provision is sheer kabuki theater. Everyone knows that once we start down that road there is no turning back. At some point in the next five years, the temporary amnesty will be made a permanent one and will likely include many other categories of illegal aliens  just to be fair to everyone who broke our laws.

California agriculture is not the only business interest powerful enough to hitch a ride on the backs of our military personnel. The Maryland fishing and tourism industries also want a ready supply of cheap foreign labor, and Senator Barbara Mikulski (D-Md.) was happy to accommodate by offering an amendment that exempts returning unskilled or low-skilled H-2B workers from counting against the caps for that category. (Never mind that there are fewer Maryland crabs to harvest each year, and that with the skyrocketing price of gas people may not be able to afford to drive to the Eastern Shore.) Over the next three years, the cumulative number of H-2B workers admitted could reach 432,000.

And while the Appropriations Committee was piling on goodies for the low-skill industries, they found time to take care of the lobbyists for the high tech industry as well. Sen. Patty Murray (D-Microsoft/Wash.) added a provision to recapture 218,000 visas for skilled foreign workers. These visas didnt really escape, so much as they just went unutilized between 1996 and 2004, especially during the years immediately after the high tech bubble burst. But now high tech employers and labor contractors want those visas back, because foreign guest workers tamp down labor costs for the industry.

Americans, no matter what they might think of the war in Iraq, genuinely support our men and women who are over there serving our nation. It seems that the members of the Senate Appropriations Committee love our troops too  but for entirely different reasons: they provide convenient cover for passing special interest legislation to benefit illegal aliens and powerful business lobbies.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

De Selby

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2008, 02:24:16 PM »
The time to "rally for immigration reform" is BEFORE 20 million-plus illegal aliens are encamped inside your society.  "Immigration reform" means aiding and abetting the legalization of people who have no right to be in this country in the first place.

"Highly slanted summary?"  As if we all don't know exactly what La Raza's agenda is.  Come on. 

The voice of the American citizenry is being denied in favor of condoning lawlessness.  This is an unholy alliance between big chunks of government and business and it should be called what it is: tyranny, a form of coup d'etat that subverts our sacred and essential principles of republican governance.  This kind of thing can only go on so long before the massive betrayal leads to the catastrophic rupture of the basic TRUST on which a society like ours rests.  We are not far from that point, and when it comes, general barbarity will be the rule rather than the unhappy exception.



I meant of the statute that was cited.  That wasn't a textual quote of the law, it was someone else's summary of the law that badly distorted the activity it prohibits.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

freakazoid

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2008, 03:51:26 PM »
Just because something is a law doesn't make it right. And if it isn't right then you shouldn't follow it.
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longeyes

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2008, 03:52:10 PM »
Why don't you post the Federal statute verbatim?
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

De Selby

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2008, 03:28:32 AM »
Why don't you post the Federal statute verbatim?

I did, with that link, but I will repost it here in full:
Quote
§ 1324. Bringing in and harboring certain aliens
 (a) Criminal penalties
(1)
(A) Any person who
(i) knowing that a person is an alien, brings to or attempts to bring to the United States in any manner whatsoever such person at a place other than a designated port of entry or place other than as designated by the Commissioner, regardless of whether such alien has received prior official authorization to come to, enter, or reside in the United States and regardless of any future official action which may be taken with respect to such alien;
(ii) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, transports, or moves or attempts to transport or move such alien within the United States by means of transportation or otherwise, in furtherance of such violation of law;
(iii) knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has come to, entered, or remains in the United States in violation of law, conceals, harbors, or shields from detection, or attempts to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection, such alien in any place, including any building or any means of transportation;
(iv) encourages or induces an alien to come to, enter, or reside in the United States, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such coming to, entry, or residence is or will be in violation of law; or
(v)
(I) engages in any conspiracy to commit any of the preceding acts, or
(II) aids or abets the commission of any of the preceding acts,
shall be punished as provided in subparagraph (B).
(B) A person who violates subparagraph (A) shall, for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs
(i) in the case of a violation of subparagraph (A)(i) or (v)(I) or in the case of a violation of subparagraph (A)(ii), (iii), or (iv) in which the offense was done for the purpose of commercial advantage or private financial gain, be fined under title 18, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both;
(ii) in the case of a violation of subparagraph (A)(ii), (iii), (iv), or (v)(II), be fined under title 18, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both;
(iii) in the case of a violation of subparagraph (A)(i), (ii), (iii), (iv), or (v) during and in relation to which the person causes serious bodily injury (as defined in section 1365 of title 18) to, or places in jeopardy the life of, any person, be fined under title 18, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both; and
(iv) in the case of a violation of subparagraph (A)(i), (ii), (iii), (iv), or (v) resulting in the death of any person, be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, fined under title 18, or both.
(C) It is not a violation of clauses [1] (ii) or (iii) of subparagraph (A), or of clause (iv) of subparagraph (A) except where a person encourages or induces an alien to come to or enter the United States, for a religious denomination having a bona fide nonprofit, religious organization in the United States, or the agents or officers of such denomination or organization, to encourage, invite, call, allow, or enable an alien who is present in the United States to perform the vocation of a minister or missionary for the denomination or organization in the United States as a volunteer who is not compensated as an employee, notwithstanding the provision of room, board, travel, medical assistance, and other basic living expenses, provided the minister or missionary has been a member of the denomination for at least one year.
(2) Any person who, knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that an alien has not received prior official authorization to come to, enter, or reside in the United States, brings to or attempts to bring to the United States in any manner whatsoever, such alien, regardless of any official action which may later be taken with respect to such alien shall, for each alien in respect to whom a violation of this paragraph occurs
(A) be fined in accordance with title 18 or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; or
(B) in the case of
(i) an offense committed with the intent or with reason to believe that the alien unlawfully brought into the United States will commit an offense against the United States or any State punishable by imprisonment for more than 1 year,
(ii) an offense done for the purpose of commercial advantage or private financial gain, or
(iii) an offense in which the alien is not upon arrival immediately brought and presented to an appropriate immigration officer at a designated port of entry,
be fined under title 18 and shall be imprisoned, in the case of a first or second violation of subparagraph (B)(iii), not more than 10 years, in the case of a first or second violation of subparagraph (B)(i) or (B)(ii), not less than 3 nor more than 10 years, and for any other violation, not less than 5 nor more than 15 years.
(3)
(A) Any person who, during any 12-month period, knowingly hires for employment at least 10 individuals with actual knowledge that the individuals are aliens described in subparagraph (B) shall be fined under title 18 or imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both.
(B) An alien described in this subparagraph is an alien who
(i) is an unauthorized alien (as defined in section 1324a (h)(3) of this title), and
(ii) has been brought into the United States in violation of this subsection.
(4) In the case of a person who has brought aliens into the United States in violation of this subsection, the sentence otherwise provided for may be increased by up to 10 years if
(A) the offense was part of an ongoing commercial organization or enterprise;
(B) aliens were transported in groups of 10 or more; and
(C)
(i) aliens were transported in a manner that endangered their lives; or
(ii) the aliens presented a life-threatening health risk to people in the United States.
(b) Seizure and forfeiture
(1) In general
Any conveyance, including any vessel, vehicle, or aircraft, that has been or is being used in the commission of a violation of subsection (a) of this section, the gross proceeds of such violation, and any property traceable to such conveyance or proceeds, shall be seized and subject to forfeiture.
(2) Applicable procedures
Seizures and forfeitures under this subsection shall be governed by the provisions of chapter 46 of title 18 relating to civil forfeitures, including section 981(d) of such title, except that such duties as are imposed upon the Secretary of the Treasury under the customs laws described in that section shall be performed by such officers, agents, and other persons as may be designated for that purpose by the Attorney General.
(3) Prima facie evidence in determinations of violations
In determining whether a violation of subsection (a) of this section has occurred, any of the following shall be prima facie evidence that an alien involved in the alleged violation had not received prior official authorization to come to, enter, or reside in the United States or that such alien had come to, entered, or remained in the United States in violation of law:
(A) Records of any judicial or administrative proceeding in which that aliens status was an issue and in which it was determined that the alien had not received prior official authorization to come to, enter, or reside in the United States or that such alien had come to, entered, or remained in the United States in violation of law.
(B) Official records of the Service or of the Department of State showing that the alien had not received prior official authorization to come to, enter, or reside in the United States or that such alien had come to, entered, or remained in the United States in violation of law.
(C) Testimony, by an immigration officer having personal knowledge of the facts concerning that aliens status, that the alien had not received prior official authorization to come to, enter, or reside in the United States or that such alien had come to, entered, or remained in the United States in violation of law.
(c) Authority to arrest
No officer or person shall have authority to make any arrests for a violation of any provision of this section except officers and employees of the Service designated by the Attorney General, either individually or as a member of a class, and all other officers whose duty it is to enforce criminal laws.
(d) Admissibility of videotaped witness testimony
Notwithstanding any provision of the Federal Rules of Evidence, the videotaped (or otherwise audiovisually preserved) deposition of a witness to a violation of subsection (a) of this section who has been deported or otherwise expelled from the United States, or is otherwise unable to testify, may be admitted into evidence in an action brought for that violation if the witness was available for cross examination and the deposition otherwise complies with the Federal Rules of Evidence.
(e) Outreach program
The Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Attorney General and the Secretary of State, as appropriate, shall develop and implement an outreach program to educate the public in the United States and abroad about the penalties for bringing in and harboring aliens in violation of this section.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

longeyes

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2008, 08:07:30 AM »
And the gross distortion inheres in what exactly?

"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

Manedwolf

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Re: McCain to attend convention of 'reconquista' group
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2008, 08:11:12 AM »
Wow.

Now SS supports Hamas, Hezbollah, and La Raza and illegal immigrants, who are criminals, as well.

How about Chavez? You behind him as well? Picking some real winners. Ahmadinejad?

Do you wear American flags on the soles of your shoes as a statement, too?