Author Topic: Powell endorses Obama.  (Read 16428 times)

De Selby

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2008, 06:34:55 AM »
ArmedBear,
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Responding to damn near everything with the same sentence, reworded, is tedious.

Must have been a pregnant sentence I used somewhere, because you've got several pages of response to my posts on this thread.

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Colin Powell was not a well-respected voice. He just bought himself some attention for a day or two.

Note the passive voice-if you rearrange the sentence to identify exactly by whom Colin Powell is not respected, it will be much more informative.  Simply saying "he's not respected!" doesn't really address the issue of how far his statements will go, or what effect they have on the race. 

Powell likely has higher approval ratings than anyone in the game at this point except, perhaps, for Barack Obama.  Of course, the effect that Powell's general polling for honesty and integrity has on the election will be tough to measure, given that it was already a virtual done deal before Powell made his endorsement.

Moving on to the economy, we have this:
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The arguments about cutting corporate taxes are not over, primarily since the global economy has made it feasible for corporations to go where their expenses, taxes being one of them, are lowest.

This would explain why Europe and Australia are experiencing massive capital flight, wild fluctuations in their markets, and have been impoverished by financial crises that ate up nearly half of their countries' invested wealth in the past year...

Oh wait, that was America, not Europe and Australia, where taxes, expenses, labor regulations, and unabashedly socialist policies do govern.  The scare tactic of claiming that corporations will abandon America because of regulation and taxation is just that-a scare tactic, and given the level of mismanagement on wall street and the public outrage over the bailout plan, one that is unlikely to influence the next administration's policy.

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OTOH, I find Obama's opposition to missile defense puzzling, at best. I've always wondered about this peculiarity of the American Left. Why NOT neutralize the threat we've lived under for so many decades?

While I don't think it's clear which side is right, there is an obvious and sensible argument in support of the left's position on this.  Missile defense systems reduce the security of the other nuclear armed states like Russia and China-it means that, in a moment of crisis, they will have much itchier trigger fingers and be more likely to undertake blindside attacks, rather than risk being attacked and unable to respond.

Reducing the amount of time that another ICBM armed nation has to decide whether or not it should pull the trigger, and also raising the stakes for its failure to launch a first strike, is nothing to play around with.

You're right that the fundamental problems and "oh, we'll do this to fix it!" will be back: My point is that the conservative response will definitely not be sold in terms of the Reason-Bush continuity, as that brand is badly damaged, and McCain is losing because of his association with it.  The language that those interests use to lobby the voters is going to change drastically, just like it had to with Nixon and then Reagan.

The whole line about privatizing every service (to be managed by friends of the guys who managed Lehman Brothers and Enron) and blaming all the failures on welfare moms, terrorists, and liberals is simply not going to work anymore.  The scope of the failure, and the identification of the conservative movement with it's engineering, is too much this time.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

seeker_two

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2008, 06:37:29 AM »
Why?  He's aknown gun control advocate, and Schwarzkopf did the heavy lifting of GWI.  Also, Powell was instrumental in stopping us short of Baghdad, (he was sared of media reaction to the "highway of death"), thus leading to GWII - da Schwarz wanted to keep going. 

Spot on.....he was more politician than military leader....as are most officers above the rank of Major....

This endorsement just confirms the contempt I've had for the man...
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2008, 08:15:52 AM »
SS, you're like a broken record playing really bad music.
JD

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Intune

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2008, 08:43:47 AM »
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While I don't think it's clear which side is right, there is an obvious and sensible argument in support of the left's position on this.  Missile defense systems reduce the security of the other nuclear armed states like Russia and China-it means that, in a moment of crisis, they will have much itchier trigger fingers and be more likely to undertake blindside attacks, rather than risk being attacked and unable to respond.
Just give 'em the lunch money.  They kinda really deserve it, right?  Sorry about the Redwoods, the Spotted Owl & the Snail Darter.  Just say NO to nukes.  Solar power & pedal power make us nicer.  No more war.  Save Darfur.  No more war.  Free Tibet.  Terrorists are people too.  There is no such thing as an illegal human.  Share the wealth. Kumbaya.  ;/

There are countries who seek to destroy us.  Utter, total eradication.  I'd rather we didn't make it any easier by weakening ourselves to make them "feel" more "comfortable" during their quest to do so.

"...We live in a world that has walls and those walls need to be guarded by men with guns...  I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest that you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."


slingshot

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2008, 09:01:59 AM »
No surprise as far as his endorsement goes.  He probably wants a job.  Powell is an excellent speaker and would make a very good UN person.  He is also sufficiently liberal to meet Obama's lib-test.
It shall be as it was in the past... Not with dreams, but with strength and with courage... Shall a nation be molded to last. (The Plainsman, 1936)

MechAg94

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2008, 11:09:43 AM »
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While I don't think it's clear which side is right, there is an obvious and sensible argument in support of the left's position on this.  Missile defense systems reduce the security of the other nuclear armed states like Russia and China-it means that, in a moment of crisis, they will have much itchier trigger fingers and be more likely to undertake blindside attacks, rather than risk being attacked and unable to respond.
 
Reword this argument for self defense and you can see how bad it is.  If you have the means to defend yourself against something, do it.  Don't be afraid to do it just because someone else may not like it. 

You might as well say we shouldn't deploy F-22 and F-15 fighter because they make other countries afraid that their own air forces are ineffective and they will have to sneak in bombs instead of just attacking directly. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

longeyes

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2008, 12:37:28 PM »
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While I don't think it's clear which side is right, there is an obvious and sensible argument in support of the left's position on this.  Missile defense systems reduce the security of the other nuclear armed states like Russia and China-it means that, in a moment of crisis, they will have much itchier trigger fingers and be more likely to undertake blindside attacks, rather than risk being attacked and unable to respond.

You're right, SS: my having a gun in my house is provocative and only encourages home invasions out of spite.  God help me if I start carrying on my person, "outside."  No telling who I'd be ticking off then.
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ArmedBear

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2008, 03:02:11 PM »
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Must have been a pregnant sentence I used somewhere, because you've got several pages of response to my posts on this thread.

I apologize for not clarifying my context. The context is months, perhaps years, not minutes.

What amazes me is that I hadn't read anything you wrote for a rather long time, and, lo and behold, here it all is again.

Your writing varies little in style or subject matter. I will grant that you have a fair number of talking points that you repeat, but given enough time, they do all sound alike. The aggregate impression I've gotten is that you're really not much into conversing about something. I have never once seen you reconsider anything you believe, as a result of a dialogue.

You already know everything. So why call yourself "student"?

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

ArmedBear

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2008, 03:12:01 PM »
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This would explain why Europe and Australia are experiencing massive capital flight, wild fluctuations in their markets, and have been impoverished by financial crises that ate up nearly half of their countries' invested wealth in the past year...

LOL

Australia's ASX 200 is down 34.66% YTD, the FTSE 100 is down 34.71%, vs. the DJIA's -30.43%

Where exactly do you get the notion that markets are doing better across the Atlantic or the Pacific?

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The whole line about privatizing every service (to be managed by friends of the guys who managed Lehman Brothers and Enron) and blaming all the failures on welfare moms, terrorists, and liberals is simply not going to work anymore.

Nice injection of a straw man at the end of your post. It's the sort of "repeat it until everyone thinks it's true" talking point that gets thrown around in every campaign. You should run for office.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 03:25:17 PM by ArmedBear »

buzz_knox

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2008, 03:20:18 PM »
The whole line about privatizing every service (to be managed by friends of the guys who managed Lehman Brothers and Enron) and blaming all the failures on welfare moms, terrorists, and liberals is simply not going to work anymore.  The scope of the failure, and the identification of the conservative movement with it's engineering, is too much this time.

Do you understand how the financial crisis developed?  It had far less to do with "privitization" than it did forcing lenders to make loans to those with lousy credit in order to promote "home ownership."  That was a Clinton initiative by the way.  Said initiative is why Dems blocked reform of Fannie and Freddie in 2005, and why Barney Frank was calling for allowing Fannie and Freddie to have more such loans on its backs as late as February 2008. 

The law, by the way, is still in place and will continue to be an albatross around the American economy until it gets repealed.

By the way, you shouldn't mention Enron, unless you want to deal with the fact that Enron had been carrying out its fraud for quite a few years and got political cover from the Clinton Administration.  When Enron called the White House during the Bush Administration, as it had done quite a few times before with the Clinton Administration, to get the SEC off its back, it was told to pound sand. 

ArmedBear

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2008, 03:24:16 PM »
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Missile defense systems reduce the security of the other nuclear armed states like Russia and China-it means that, in a moment of crisis, they will have much itchier trigger fingers and be more likely to undertake blindside attacks, rather than risk being attacked and unable to respond.

That's an utterly silly argument.

MAD still exists. It would be virtually impossible for anyone to undertake a blindside attack that would disable the enemy. Yes, you could take out New York before a response was mounted, but then it would be all over anyway.

If anything, our ability to stop an incoming missile would make it possible that MAD would be averted. It provides a line of defense that doesn't involve destroying the other country within, say, 30 minutes. I.e. it makes for less-itchy trigger fingers, not more-itchy.

Furthermore, that denies the reality that no major power has failed to match another's military technology within a fairly short time. Once a working system exists, it will not be too long before missile defense is a common thing for major countries to have. At that point, we can finally shed MAD as our only real nuclear strategy.

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Note the passive voice-if you rearrange the sentence to identify exactly by whom Colin Powell is not respected, it will be much more informative

Actually, I had intended that to be read as a past participle, not a passive verb. Note that this was in direct response to Powell being referred to as "respected", which was a past participle.

True enough about identifying "by whom", but I'm not all that interested in rehashing the past 15 years. Read all about him if you want. I have little doubt that you could dig up some intriguing lines from Joe Biden before and during Desert Shield and Desert Storm, to start with. That's just a guess.

Most recently, though, Mickey Kaus in Slate, snidely.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 04:05:07 PM by ArmedBear »

De Selby

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2008, 06:30:16 PM »
 
Reword this argument for self defense and you can see how bad it is.  If you have the means to defend yourself against something, do it.  Don't be afraid to do it just because someone else may not like it. 

You might as well say we shouldn't deploy F-22 and F-15 fighter because they make other countries afraid that their own air forces are ineffective and they will have to sneak in bombs instead of just attacking directly. 

Yeah, the game changes a little when the danger you're looking at is having another country shoot down your planes, vs. having another country eradicate your whole country with nuclear weapons.

MAD, which has kept the world free of a nuclear exchange for more than 50 years, is not even remotely similar to self defense between people or a conventional war.  It works on the principle that, if you start it, you will be destroyed too.  It is a guarantee of mutual suicide.

So what happens when one party to the MAD equation suddenly has the possibility of attacking the other side first, but not suffering a counter-attack because of its defense shield?  You don't have MAD anymore-and it is very simple to see what happens to calculus from the other side of the pond in that situation.

You now have a Russian guy with his finger on the button, whose decision in any time of crisis is "Okay, if I wait to push this, they may launch first and then they'll easily stop any counterattack....and maybe if I send the nukes first, I can wipe out their defense system and enough of their nukes to spare my country."

The better the defense systems and missiles involved, the shorter the period of time this nameless Russian will have to consider the options. 

See how that's different from fighter jets and having a pistol in your house? 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2008, 06:42:56 PM »
Your writing varies little in style or subject matter. I will grant that you have a fair number of talking points that you repeat, but given enough time, they do all sound alike. The aggregate impression I've gotten is that you're really not much into conversing about something. I have never once seen you reconsider anything you believe, as a result of a dialogue.

You already know everything. So why call yourself "student"?

I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

Well, if you think this, it's because you weren't around when I started on these forums-I was an Iraq war supporting, full on neo-con back in 2003.  I supported Bush in both of the past elections, and there is no question in my mind that dialogue, including what I've seen between TFL, THR, and APS, has radically changed my views. 

My notions of how the economy is doing out here in Australia came from driving around and noticing the distinct lack of foreclosure announcements, runs on banks, and the lack of talk regarding insane mortgage default rates.  Then there's also the "Urgent-Help Needed" signs in the window of virtually every retailer at least in the ACT and NSW.  I most certainly did not notice that trend back in the economic centers of America.

With both Europe and Australia, the markets appear to be mirroring Wall Street, but what they don't have is millions of people losing their homes and they also have plenty of corporations left, despite a good 50 years of true-blue socialism.



"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #63 on: October 21, 2008, 07:45:56 PM »
Which forums were you on in 2003?  ???
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MechAg94

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2008, 08:03:01 PM »
Yeah, the game changes a little when the danger you're looking at is having another country shoot down your planes, vs. having another country eradicate your whole country with nuclear weapons.

MAD, which has kept the world free of a nuclear exchange for more than 50 years, is not even remotely similar to self defense between people or a conventional war.  It works on the principle that, if you start it, you will be destroyed too.  It is a guarantee of mutual suicide.

So what happens when one party to the MAD equation suddenly has the possibility of attacking the other side first, but not suffering a counter-attack because of its defense shield?  You don't have MAD anymore-and it is very simple to see what happens to calculus from the other side of the pond in that situation.

You now have a Russian guy with his finger on the button, whose decision in any time of crisis is "Okay, if I wait to push this, they may launch first and then they'll easily stop any counterattack....and maybe if I send the nukes first, I can wipe out their defense system and enough of their nukes to spare my country."

The better the defense systems and missiles involved, the shorter the period of time this nameless Russian will have to consider the options. 

See how that's different from fighter jets and having a pistol in your house? 
No, your example is horrible.  :)  The principle is the same no matter what the weapon.  The scale is what changes.  IMO, you seem to be saying that if I respond to his attack, my response will be less effective due to missile defense so I will just attack first and have my attack be less effective.  If anything, missile defense would make it more difficult for an initial strike to affect the responding attack.  

MAD works because if one guy has a gun he thinks has power over others.  If the others also have a gun, then he has no advantage.  Back in the 70's or whenever that term was coined, idiots were talking about giving up our nukes as a gesture of peace and other idiotic stuff like that.  It doesn't work against criminals and it wouldn't work against enemies either.  Weakness always invites aggression.  

Adding missile defense technology doesn't really change the MAD system all that much.  We don't have a system to defend against an all out nuke attack.  It would likely take years for us to attain that sort of goal even if we wanted to.  I think even Russia could figure out how to build their own system by then (or steal the tech).  This is very similar to one guy having some body armor.  It might help him survive getting shot, but it might not.  He is still not going to go attacking other guys with guns for no reason.  

The main reasons I like the missile defense technology are 1) it provides some defense against countries like N.K. or Iran who might in the future develop true ICBM capability yet not the numbers of someone like Russia or China and 2) if we can build it, so can our enemies.  If we say we don't need it today, I bet we will regret that down the road.  At least fielding a working system (even limited) allows us to test and maintain it and hopefully help develop the next generation of system down the road.  
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Teknoid

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2008, 09:00:46 PM »
Endorsements don't impress me, no matter who makes them. I prefer to make up my own mind, not use the opinions of others dictate my actions. Powell endorsing Obama doesn't surprise me. Now if Norman Schwarzkopf endorsed him, that would come as a shock.

buzz_knox

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Re: Powell endorses Obama.
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2008, 10:05:13 PM »
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I think even Russia could figure out how to build their own system by then (or steal the tech).

Russia already has these systems.  Not only do they have the treaty authorized ABM system in place around Moscow, but their S400 SAM system has an ABM capability.

Add in the fact that more than a few Russian sources have said Russia has deployed nuke equipped SAMs, and even their "lesser" SAM systems have an ABM capability.

ABM tech is decidedly old school.  We had the capability in the 1950s to 1970s.  Unfortunately, we destroyed it in order to comply with ABM treaty.