editorial about teachers unions

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/romney-vs-teachers-unions-the-inconvenient-truth/2012/05/30/gJQA7KVv1U_story.html?hpid=z2


and a good one   balanced and looks at a period of decades

[AJ Dual]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/romney-vs-teachers-unions-the-inconvenient-truth/2012/05/30/gJQA7KVv1U_story.html?hpid=z2


and a good one   balanced and looks at a period of decades

This is one of the few areas where the political Left is poised to "eat it's own", except that the Leftist constituency of Teachers Unions has money and power, and the Leftist constituency of poor minority inner city parents of school-age children do not.

Truth be told, the Teachers Unions aren't even really out for the Teachers, witnessing how they're always willing to allow hundreds of their union "siblings" to be laid off or fired when the school district in question runs out of money, rather than take small concessions across the board for everyone so they can at least keep their jobs, and a higher teacher/student ratio.

Here in WI, the corruption was so bad, the main WI Teachers Union, WEAC, actually formed an insurance company, charged rates (for a Cadillac plan) that were significantly higher than any other carrier for the same plan, and then the same union would demand that the WEAC insurance be in the contracts.  

Hopefully what's happened in Wisconsin to cure our state of that cancer will be upheld in the Governor Walker's recall election next week.

And IMO, the editorial's prime argument seems rather similar to "Communism is great! We just haven't had the right people in charge yet." It's rather naive to think that what works in culturally and ethnically homogeneous South Korea or Finland or wherever, places where there's also other cultural forces that shore up the work ethic and taking pride in one's work are at play as well, would work in the much more ethnically, culturally, and socio-economically diverse U.S.A. (or where this affects the students even more so...)

Simply put, I'll call a spade a spade, and say that what Matt Miller proposes in terms of a strong union that's interested in "recruiting teacher excellence" isn't possible in America, at least until Affirmative Action is done away with. Call me a bigot if you want, but I'll lay my money on the demographics of such a teaching meritocracy looking very white/Indian/Asian, well beyond the actual racial makeup of America. And the sister-ideologies of Affirmative Action that prevent enforcing REAL learning and discipline in the blighted inner-city schools that generally need the most help wouldn't stand for it either.

[roo_ster]

That reality is this: The top performing school systems in the world have strong teachers unions at the heart of their education establishment....The chief educational strategy of top-performing nations such as Finland, Singapore and South Korea

Could it be that Finland, Singapore, and South Korean educational systems have such awesome outputs because their systems are chock full of Finns, overseas Chinese, and S Koreans...all of whom score really freaking high no matter what school system they happen to inhabit at the time?

The elephant in the room, she is stomping about yet nobody can acknowledge her existence.  

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Could it be that Finland, Singapore, and South Korean educational systems have such awesome outputs because their systems are chock full of Finns, overseas Chinese, and S Koreans...all of whom score really freaking high no matter what school system they happen to inhabit at the time?

The elephant in the room, she is stomping about yet nobody can acknowledge her existence.  

it could be that but i can remember a different time when teachers held a position of greater respect and responsibility. my folks had my teachers over to dinner regularly.  heck i had the same teacher for 4th and 5th grade and she went on a couple family vacations with us.  if that happened today someones head would explode and that was a pg county md public school

[AJ Dual]

On that side of the coin, the students, and the communities in which the schools find themselves imbedded... This all boils down to the fact that Political Correctness has successfully managed to make culturalism equivalent with racism.

Some sub-cultures in America absolutely, and without a doubt, are inferior to others. And no one, except save for those as being perceived as being "within" that culture are allowed to comment on it. (i.e. Bill Cosby's rant from a few years back) And even then, it's often just self-serving lip-service, and even then, the offender is often either ejected from the fold, or reined in, and forced to moderate their comments. 

[Terpsichore]

it could be that but i can remember a different time when teachers held a position of greater respect and responsibility. my folks had my teachers over to dinner regularly.  heck i had the same teacher for 4th and 5th grade and she went on a couple family vacations with us.  if that happened today someones head would explode and that was a pg county md public school

We had similar experiences when I was in school.  We would see a favorite teacher while out and about as kids and run up and give her a hug and our parents would stop and chit chat.  She was like a favorite aunt to a lot of students.  Now, a teacher has to almost distance themselves to a point.  In my degree program, we got into so many debates about the teacher/student professional relationship.  This last year alone, there have been quite a few stories of teachers dating their high school students and whatnot.  It put the rest of us going into that field or already in it on edge.  Teachers used to be seen as someone a student could go to when they needed help.  Now...there seems to be, not quite a barrier, but more like a "you can't cross this line".

"Truth be told, the Teachers Unions aren't even really out for the Teachers, witnessing how they're always willing to allow hundreds of their union "siblings" to be laid off or fired when the school district in question runs out of money, rather than take small concessions across the board for everyone so they can at least keep their jobs, and a higher teacher/student ratio. "

Gonna agree with you on this one.  We've lost some excellent teachers in our district because of lay offs.  Several were even offered early retirement before they were even close to "retirement age".  Never once, did any mention about WEAC stepping in to offer assistance.

[SteveS]

Could it be that Finland, Singapore, and South Korean educational systems have such awesome outputs because their systems are chock full of Finns, overseas Chinese, and S Koreans...all of whom score really freaking high no matter what school system they happen to inhabit at the time?

The elephant in the room, she is stomping about yet nobody can acknowledge her existence.  

There must be something about their system because I can't find any data that suggests Finns score high outside of their own system.  Heck, I went to school with tons of Finns and they weren't any smarter (on average) than any other group.

[brimic]

There must be something about their system because I can't find any data that suggests Finns score high outside of their own system.  Heck, I went to school with tons of Finns and they weren't any smarter (on average) than any other group.

I'm guessing Finland has a pretty homogeneous culture which lacks poor or even hostile attitudes towards education in certain ethnicities as seen in the USA which push average academic metrics downward.
'Smarter' is not a good measure of academic success either, the value a culture puts on education is far more important.
Asian students in the USA outperform whites consistently, not because of higher IQs, but because of much greater work ethics when it comes to their studies.
Within a generation or two of large immigrations of illiterate Jews that came to America, their children and grandchildren dominated academia.

[roo_ster]

There must be something about their system because I can't find any data that suggests Finns score high outside of their own system.  Heck, I went to school with tons of Finns and they weren't any smarter (on average) than any other group.

Minnesota has a bunch.  Maybe look there for independent confirmation.

'Smarter' is not a good measure of academic success either, the value a culture puts on education is far more important.

The data does not agree.  The factor with the largest correlation with academic success is g (general intelligence).

Asian students in the USA outperform whites consistently, not because of higher IQs, but because of much greater work ethics when it comes to their studies.
Within a generation or two of large immigrations of illiterate Jews that came to America, their children and grandchildren dominated academia.

Northeast Asian(1) IQ deltas above the white mean persist several generations in, past Americanization.  Same with Jews. 





(1)  As the oriental population groups approach the equator, the IQ delta above mean is reduced. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/dud_of_the_class_V94XccuHkAS9OKOVaTtWMK

teacher perv can't be fired

[makattak]

I'm guessing Finland has a pretty homogeneous culture which has poor or even hostile attitudes towards athletics unlike in certain elasticities as seen in the USA which push average athletic metrics downward.

'Stronger' or 'faster' is not a good measure of athletic success either, the value a culture puts on athletics is far more important.
Black students in the USA outperform whites consistently, not because of being stronger or faster, but because of much greater work ethics when it comes to their sports.


The above seems like nonsense, right? How come we can accept that races have certain physical tendencies ON AVERAGE(1) but if we ever note that one of those physical traits is intellect, we must immediately decry any such suggestion and (as is the case with sex differences as well) shun the heretic.(2)


(1)For those who will come back with specific examples of someone outside of the average of their race, like Yao Ming or Vivien Thomas, I will note for you that speaking of tendencies and averages does not mean that no one of that race can ever have superior intellect or athletic ability beyond the averages. It simply means that the people who share certain physical characteristics (for example: skin tone, hair type, eye shape, nose shape etc...) most often share OTHER certain physical characteristics (like size, intellect, strength, speed, endurance, dexterity, etc...)

(2)For example, Lawrence Summers.

[brimic]

Is intelligence a function of nature or nurture? Or both?
Different subgroups certainly have different potentials, but do they meet their potentials without a culture backing them?

[makattak]

Is intelligence a function of nature or nurture? Or both?
Different subgroups certainly have different potentials, but do they meet their potentials without a culture backing them?

http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2011/04/11/twin-lessons-have-more-kids-pay-less-attention-to-them/

http://ruccs.rutgers.edu/~karin/stromswoldLANG.pdf

With a few exceptions, the effect of parenting on adult outcomes ranges from small to zero. Parents change kids in many ways; the catch is that the changes fade out as kids grow up.  By adulthood, identical twins aren’t slightly more similar than fraternal twins; they’re much more similar.  And when identical twins are raised apart, they’re often just as similar as they are when they’re raised together.

[SteveS]

Minnesota has a bunch.  Maybe look there for independent confirmation.

So does northern Michigan, but I will admit all my evidence is anecdotal.

Anyway, can you show me data that suggests Finns in other countries perform the same as they do at home?

[Balog]

Recent study here in WA shows native US born blacks significantly underperform black immigrants. And I've seen studies showing Asians with below mean IQ out performing higher IQ groups with worse cultural work ethics.

[brimic]

Recent study here in WA shows native US born blacks significantly underperform black immigrants. And I've seen studies showing Asians with below mean IQ out performing higher IQ groups with worse cultural work ethics.

Thomas Sowell comes up with similar conclusions in several of his books.

He offers very good explanations on why some cultures tend to rise to the top no matter where they go (Chinese, Korean, Jewish, Lebanese, Indian) following similar cultural patterns  and why others don't in "Black Rednecks and White Liberals"

[Balog]

Academic performance is directly correlated with diligence in study. Very few folks get 4.0 gpa's in hard subjects just from being smart.

[longeyes]

Could it be that Finland, Singapore, and South Korean educational systems have such awesome outputs because their systems are chock full of Finns, overseas Chinese, and S Koreans...all of whom score really freaking high no matter what school system they happen to inhabit at the time?

The elephant in the room, she is stomping about yet nobody can acknowledge her existence.  

Academic performance rests on culture, and culture rests on...well, perhaps we'd rather not know...

[makattak]

Academic Athletic performance is directly correlated with diligence in study training. Very few folks get 4.0 gpa's in hard subjects sub-10 second 100 meters just from being smart fast.

Study or training is necessary no matter how much talent an individual has. Study and training can make up for a lack of natural talent. It can't however, beat someone who has talent AND studies or trains.

Or does my daughter have a chance of being the next Michael Jordan in the NBA? (Not the WNBA, the NBA.)

[Balog]

Study or training is necessary no matter how much talent an individual has. Study and training can make up for a lack of natural talent. It can't however, beat someone who has talent AND studies or trains.

Or does my daughter have a chance of being the next Michael Jordan in the NBA? (Not the WNBA, the NBA.)

 

Really, you're better than this petty sophistry. We're discussing mean performance of a group, not the significant outliers that comprise the very highest levels of professional achievements.

[makattak]

Really, you're better than this petty sophistry. We're discussing mean performance of a group, not the significant outliers that comprise the very highest levels of professional achievements.

Yes. And statistical outliers work much the same as the average for the group. I used them as an example because its an easier process to explain.

If group A, on average, does not have as much natural talent as another group B, on average, then group B, on average, will outperform group A. Diligence can mitigate the advantage of some of that talent, but when talking about large numbers, it is unlikely to overcome it.

Do black players dominate basketball and football and track and field as a result of a greater work ethic? (and in this, I am encompassing more than simply the outliers in the professional leagues.)

[brimic]

Where strength, Power, speed and endurance are needed in a sport, blacks should dominate Professional Hockey, but they are strangely absent.
Could it be that hockey is a bigger part of culture to Canadians and Great Lakes people than it is to inner city blacks?
Could it be that different cultures value different sports and entertainment differently?

I could also make the same case for professional boxing- its been dominated by several different ethnicities at different times- usually ethnicities at the lower rungs of society at any given time period. Irish+Italians-->blacks-->Hispanics.

[Balog]

Yes. And statistical outliers work much the same as the average for the group. I used them as an example because its an easier process to explain.

If group A, on average, does not have as much natural talent as another group B, on average, then group B, on average, will outperform group A. Diligence can mitigate the advantage of some of that talent, but when talking about large numbers, it is unlikely to overcome it.

Do black players dominate basketball and football and track and field as a result of a greater work ethic? (and in this, I am encompassing more than simply the outliers in the professional leagues.)

Brimic took the words out of my mouth. As shocking as the idea that blacks might have a strong work ethic might be.

[makattak]

Where strength, Power, speed and endurance are needed in a sport, blacks should dominate Professional Hockey, but they are strangely absent.
Could it be that hockey is a bigger part of culture to Canadians and Great Lakes people than it is to inner city blacks?
Could it be that different cultures value different sports and entertainment differently?

I could also make the same case for professional boxing- its been dominated by several different ethnicities at different times- usually ethnicities at the lower rungs of society at any given time period. Irish+Italians-->blacks-->Hispanics.

It might make a good study for why blacks are either not interested or not successful in hockey. More than just strength, speed, and power are necessary in hockey, balance and dexterity matter, too. I thought that bringing up statistical outliers was sophistry, though?

However, that really doesn't negate my point that athleticism is a heritable trait just as intelligence is and that greater athleticism (or intelligence) is the best indicator for success in athletic (or intellectual) endeavors. To repeat, diligence in studying or training can mitigate some of the advantage held by those with natural talent, but generally does not.

As for blacks (as a whole) not having a strong work ethic, I do not, have not, nor will I ever make such a claim. My point was that hard work is no subsitute for talent, not that some ethnicities just don't try hard enough to get ahead.

[Balog]

And my point is that the datasets where heritable traits are the same and cultural influences are different directly contradict your point. You're attempting to cherry pick "data" from an already cherry picked data set.

I'm not saying there are no heritable traits that affect physical and even mental average abilities. I'm merely pointing out that 1. Environmental and cultural factors are as large or larger than strictly heritable ones 2. If you're going to try to cite data, you must at least pay a token effort to control for the variables.