Greecing the skids

[MillCreek]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45114513/ns/world_news-europe/#.TrAFl3LGx1I

So, the Greek Prime Minister is going to put the Greek bailout package to a vote of the people.  Based on the stock market so far this morning, this is not raising confidence in the resolution to the Euro crisis, brokered just last week. 

The vote will take place in January; I wonder if the Greek PM will last that long.

[zxcvbob]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45114513/ns/world_news-europe/#.TrAFl3LGx1I

So, the Greek Prime Minister is going to put the Greek bailout package to a vote of the people.  Based on the stock market so far this morning, this is not raising confidence in the resolution to the Euro crisis, brokered just last week. 

The vote will take place in January; I wonder if the Greek PM will last that long.

Of course he will last that long; he's a rock star [in Greece] for this.  The Greeks want to continue partying on Germany's credit card -- how do you think they'll vote??

[Viking]

*expletive deleted*ck Greece. They've made their bed, now they can lie in it.

[TommyGunn]

I never thought the stock market rally was anything more than a short term burst of hollow gusto.  If it hadn't been this Greek referendum it would have been something else that quashed it.
I am not sanguine about what the Greeks will decide; it seems a LOT of them still want their entitlements and goodies if the riots were any judge. 
This  may turn out REAL bad .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. . 

[Jamie B]

*expletive deleted* Greece. They've made their bed, now they can lie in it.

Snort! That pretty much covers the Greek situation!

[longeyes]

It's a shame to see a people that took the initiative in exploring reality rush to abandon it.

[MicroBalrog]

So help me here, why shouldn't Greece refuse the bailout package, default on the debt, and tell Europe to shove it where the sun don't shine?

[makattak]

So help me here, why shouldn't Greece refuse the bailout package, default on the debt, and tell Europe to shove it where the sun don't shine?

Logically? Because that would mean they'd have to balance their budget RIGHT NOW as no one would loan them anymore money.

And they don't want that either. They want the free money spigot to keep going.

Personally, I hope they do that. Maybe the consequences they face will wake people up over here. I'm not holding out a lot of hope for that, though.

[dogmush]

If they do that do they have some plan on how to keep their government running?

Honest question, I know nothing about Greek politics, but weren't there riots over just the thought of cutting back entitlements?

[MicroBalrog]

Logically? Because that would mean they'd have to balance their budget RIGHT NOW as no one would loan them anymore money.

And they don't want that either. They want the free money spigot to keep going.

Personally, I hope they do that. Maybe the consequences they face will wake people up over here. I'm not holding out a lot of hope for that, though.

I'd  certainly take that over having some fellows in Brussels, vaguely resembling a human being, tell me how to run my country.

There's no specific reason we should sympathize with the Germans and French over the Greeks here.

[agricola]

Papandreou is doing the right thing, albeit for the wrong reasons and several months too late. 

His government will almost certainly fall over the next few days, Greece will be forced into the bailout, there will be no referendum and we will probably see large-scale rioting followed by some kind of military takeover (and associated unpleasantness) in the weeks afterwards.   The Euro - in its current form - will still fail, and those that lent money to Greece at really high levels of interest will not get their money back; just as those who did the same to Italy and Spain will find out.

Hopefully, what emerges from the ashes will be an improvement.  The EU is a good idea, implemented awfully, run by overpaid bureaucrats who have no accountability and comprising many states run by people who are openly corrupt.  This is why it - and those states - are failing.

[MechAg94]

I'm not sure the EU is a great idea as it is.  At least the Euro is not a great idea IMO and this is pretty much why.

[drewtam]

Greece seems to have two choices:

a.) Remain in the EU and accept steep austerity dictated by Brussels. Remaining in the EU has benefits and drawbacks to their economy.
b.) Leave the EU, be forced into steep austerity by world market after default. Leaving the EU has benefits and drawbacks to their economy.

Considering the success of Iceland, I would recommend option 2. It also seems the path to greater self determination and improved national character.

[just Warren]

I've been wondering if it would be cheaper for Germany to just invade Italy and Greece kick out the governments and all the stupid agreements they've signed with the public sector workers and other parties and then go from there.

[dogmush]

I seem to recall the last couple times Germany went invading across Europe.  Not only did it not solve Germany's problems but it didn't really help anyone else either.

Actually it did kinda help our depression.

[Matthew Carberry]

Their trains run on time again, we get an economic boost.

Win-win.

[Perd Hapley]

I'd  certainly take that over having some fellows in Brussels, vaguely resembling a human being, tell me how to run my country.

There's no specific reason we should sympathize with the Germans and French over the Greeks here.

That seems to be the APS consensus.

[longeyes]

So help me here, why shouldn't Greece refuse the bailout package, default on the debt, and tell Europe to shove it where the sun don't shine?

Unfortunately, one form of parasitism doesn't justify another.

[De Selby]

I'd  certainly take that over having some fellows in Brussels, vaguely resembling a human being, tell me how to run my country.

There's no specific reason we should sympathize with the Germans and French over the Greeks here.

Yes there is micro - our major banks (who exist thanks to our money) want us to reject any notion of Greek independence on this issue.   Therefore, we do.

I'm constantly amazed at how even relatively principled American conservatives will abandon all rational analysis whenever a major financial or corporate lobby says jump.

Ron Paul is the only public figure I've seen who is immune to this.  I'm taking an absentee ballot just to vote for him.

[Azrael256]

There's no specific reason we should sympathize with the Germans and French over the Greeks here.

Yeah, I dunno.  They (Germany) strike me as the 53% of Europe.  The stinking, commie 53% of Europe.  Stinking, commie, unable to see that Greece is a worse credit risk than your average car title loan...

Ok, I see your point.

Alright, I don't care anymore.  I have two conditions for the continued existence of Europe:

1. This better not cost me anything.
2. This better be entertaining.

Beyond that, I'm good with Greece trying to invade Germany, or vice-versa.  Actually, that would be funny, and would satisfy condition #2.  As long as I don't have to pay to rebuild anything.  If you can retire at 50, you can deal with a good thrashing.

And for the record, I hereby predict bullets crossing borders.

[MicroBalrog]

Unfortunately, one form of parasitism doesn't justify another.

Germany is a welfare/police/corporatist state. Greece is a welfare/police/corporatist  state with worse spending habits. There is not a moral, or any kind of sensible reason that one of these is morally superior to another.

If there are to be welfare states (and frankly, a welfare state, for all its flaws and evils, is still better than most of the other forms of rule known to man) I'd rather they'd at least be sovereign and ruled by their own people.

[longeyes]

Yes there is micro - our major banks (who exist thanks to our money) want us to reject any notion of Greek independence on this issue.   Therefore, we do. I'm constantly amazed at how even relatively principled American conservatives will abandon all rational analysis whenever a major financial or corporate lobby says jump.

Greek independence???  Their lives in Greece depend on other people's money.

It takes a user and a pusher.

[zxcvbob]

Their trains run on time again, we get an economic boost.
Win-win.

[sniff] That was beautiful, man! 

(Scout can abruptly close the thread now)

[roo_ster]

I'm not sure the EU is a great idea as it is.  At least the Euro is not a great idea IMO and this is pretty much why.

A European customs union is a great idea.  Teh EU, the euro, and all the associated mess not so much.

[Regolith]

I've been wondering if it would be cheaper for Germany to just invade Italy and Greece kick out the governments and all the stupid agreements they've signed with the public sector workers and other parties and then go from there.

The German PM has already made veiled references to it, so I wouldn't be surprised if something like that happened in the long run.