Author Topic: A good Democrat?  (Read 41813 times)

Strings

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #75 on: September 21, 2009, 09:17:38 PM »
It does kinda leap out atcha, doesn't it?
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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #76 on: September 21, 2009, 09:22:49 PM »
Quote
I am prepared to pay more taxes to make that happen, and I am prepared to make you pay more taxes to make that happen.

BRING IT! I'm prepared to do everything I can so that you and your ilk don't succeed.

You want socialism? You want your paradise? You seem so fond of the way other countries are run.  Go to them. Stop trying to tear down the US...





« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 09:26:22 PM by Avenger29 »
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erictank

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #77 on: September 21, 2009, 09:54:14 PM »
That is, of course, a political opinion.  Making a political opinion out to be immoral is not helpful to anyone.  I disagree with the notion that 'socialism' is immoral or unjust.  If you want to advocate a total libertarian society that is fine, go do it.  But I fundamentally disagree with that notion.

Using the resources of a collective body to further that bodies own goals is what modern government is all about.  I think the government should do more than provide self-defense and a court system.  You might want a return to 1776, but I do not, nor do most citizens.  I am prepared to pay more taxes to make that happen, and I am prepared to make you pay more taxes to make that happen.

Shall we go into what some are prepared to do to resist such wrongful compulsion?

In many cases, one suspects it would be quite painful for you.  Very briefly so, admittedly, but quite painful.

Myself, I'm not keen on the sort of slavery (yes, I said slavery and I *MEANT* slavery - call it what it is!) you appear willing to inflict on me.  Take that as you will.

I applaud your willingness to sacrifice your assets for what you believe in.  I condemn your willingness to steal *MY* assets for what you believe in.

Gewehr98

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2009, 10:11:56 PM »
That is quite an over-developed sense of entitlement, isn't it?   :O
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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2009, 10:31:17 PM »
I simply try to demonstrate that it is possible to have a well-run tax-payer funded system.

Name *one* "well-run tax-payer funded system" that our .gov has or currently runs.   Just one, and if you can't, then explain to me why you think that the .gov will finally get it right with health care ??

I am prepared to pay more taxes to make that happen, and I am prepared to make you pay more taxes to make that happen.

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Nick1911

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #80 on: September 21, 2009, 10:58:53 PM »
What I've read here is a central disagreement about the following.

I think the root fallacy of socialism lies in denying the right of an individual to keep what is his.

Conservatives tend to take this as a central axiom.  To them, it's a truth, and arguments are and generally built off of it.

But!  The other side doesn't generally regard this as a truth.

Ignoring the argument that socialism is immoral in any measure (as others don't see things this way), I think one way to view this as a continuum from anarchy (total freedom from the rule of law) to communism (government ownership of everything).

On anarchy:  One is free to keep all the fruits of their labor, however I don't think such a system can thrive.  Without some protections afforded by society, what's to keep another from blowing you away because you've managed to earn $10?  What's the incentive to work hard if the government hasn't maintained a monopoly on violence, thus allowing anyone strong to take anything from someone weak?

On communism:  What's the incentive to do anything at all if the effort you put forth has no correlation to the rewards you reap?

I don't see how either extreme can work.

In this continuum, I think there has to be some socialized services (police, courts, prisons), but not so much that the cost becomes a disincentive to strive for improvement of ones own life. 

The problem is that most socialized services in the US are superfluous BS.

A central axiom I believe is that: In general, people will make choices that are most economically advantageous to them, without regard to others.

Unfortunately, because of this inherent nature of people, any socialist system created will be abused.

A further conclusion drawn is; if I'm running a big corporation, and corporate taxes in the US are 35%, and they are 20% in Russia, I will, by default move operations overseas.  The world has gotten a lot smaller with the advent of modern technology -- moving operations across countries isn't as big of a deal as it once was.

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RevDisk

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #81 on: September 21, 2009, 11:53:05 PM »
Using the resources of a collective body to further that bodies own goals is what modern government is all about.  I think the government should do more than provide self-defense and a court system.  You might want a return to 1776, but I do not, nor do most citizens.  I am prepared to pay more taxes to make that happen, and I am prepared to make you pay more taxes to make that happen.

In the interest of full disclosure... I am a Democrat.  On some matters, I am even considered a liberal. 

However, I must say, I think you would find it deeply educational to get some more travel under your belt.  Spent a year or two in a former communist country and see what horrors lay at the end of the road you wish to travel down.  Yes, yes, "but I just want this SMALL piece of your freedom, property and income!"  We both know you want to take as much as you can take.  Every last cent, every last freedom, until you burn the world with the physical manifestations of the evil of your ideology.

To put credit were credit is due, your side has been winning for a hundred years.  Each day, we lose more freedom.  We made some progress, in some areas, a lot of progress, but we steadily lose ground.  Sooner or later, the tide will turn.  People want to be free.  They get complacent and lazy when times are good and are happy to sign away their life's blood for bread and circus.  But sooner or later, they remember that they are people, not slaves. 
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Balog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #82 on: September 22, 2009, 12:15:14 AM »
Sooner or later, the tide will turn.  People want to be free.  They get complacent and lazy when times are good and are happy to sign away their life's blood for bread and circus.  But sooner or later, they remember that they are people, not slaves. 


You're way more optimistic than I am.
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RevDisk

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2009, 12:17:40 AM »
You're way more optimistic than I am.

Gotta believe in something.  Otherwise, what's the point of living?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #84 on: September 22, 2009, 12:24:52 AM »
Gotta believe in something.  Otherwise, what's the point of living?

On this forum, I believe the accepted answer is "eating bacon." 
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #85 on: September 22, 2009, 02:19:44 AM »
That is, of course, a political opinion.  Making a political opinion out to be immoral is not helpful to anyone.  I disagree with the notion that 'socialism' is immoral or unjust.  If you want to advocate a total libertarian society that is fine, go do it.  But I fundamentally disagree with that notion.

Using the resources of a collective body to further that bodies own goals is what modern government is all about.  I think the government should do more than provide self-defense and a court system.  You might want a return to 1776, but I do not, nor do most citizens.  I am prepared to pay more taxes to make that happen, and I am prepared to make you pay more taxes to make that happen.

Politics is about who gets what, where and why.  This debate is an essential part of that!  I would challange you to oppose socialist ideas on their own merit, instead of attacking them with a plea to a nebulous moral authority that most citizens do not agree with.

Socialism is not so much a political opinion, more of a means to control a population. And I am also one who believes that socialism is immoral as is any system that takes/steals from producers to give to the parasites of society. You want health care? Get a job and pay for it yourself.

So you are prepared to make me pay more taxes to fund something you want are you? Well bully for you. Have you ever heard the fable about the goose that laid the golden egg? At some point the evil rich people that you think need to fund all these wonderful entitlement programs are going to review the balance sheets and decide that working to support leaches and freeloaders isn't worth the hassle and they will change lines form the payout line to the handout line. Seriously, why should I bust my hump so .gov can take most of the fruits of MY labor and give it to welfare rats?

Your view of politics -
Quote
Politics is about who gets what, where and why
leaves out the part about where it comes from.
There is nothing nebulous about my moral authority, I don't owe you or anyone except my wife or children a damn thing.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #86 on: September 22, 2009, 06:46:17 AM »
Quote
Politics is about who gets what, where and why.

No, it's your politics that is about that.

Once you accept that the role of government is to take (By tax or regulation) from Peter to pay Paul, then indeed, the question becomes, who's going to be Paul.

Big corporations whimpering for bailouts? Defense contractors? Unions? The unemployed and shiftless?

Once you believe that politics is all about currying favors - rather than 'nebulous' concepts like morality and rights. then politics is indeed only about might makes right.

But that's only true if we agree to accept the legitimacy of the founding concept - that politics is all about trading for favors, and that this is some form of immutable force that we are powerless to change, that the welfare state is here to stay and all we can do is bend over and grovel before its ever-expanding might. You believe - and you want us to believe - that resistance is futile, that a universe without a welfare state is impossible, and anybody who claims they oppose socialism is just a hypocrite because they have no choice but to accept the existing socialism in their lives, so obviously they can't take a principled stand against socialism.

But socialism is not a given, immutable fact of our lives.

There was a human world before the welfare state, and there will be a world after.

And I'm planning on living in it.

No.
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mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #87 on: September 22, 2009, 12:02:01 PM »
Heh, I knew I would have lots to read :)

No reason to respond one-by-one since all the posts are about the same thing.  Here are my comments on the root cause:

1) Saying politics is not about distributing resources ignores reality and human history.

2) Saying we should go back to a strict constitutional role of the government is, in my opinion, wrong.  The country has been taxed since it began, either by states or by the feds.  Taxes are socialism.  I don't want to live in 1776, and I doubt most of you do either.

3) I think responsible socialism is fine, most of you think it is immoral.  Ok, not much I can say to that, besides I think you are wrong.  Too many countries have had great success.  Australia is a moderate example, Sweden is another good example...these are 'horrible' socialist countries, but they seem to run better in many ways than our own beacon of freedom.  The evidence shows that socialism != collapse.  The world is full of socialist countries that operate at least as well as America.  I have been to Communist countries, and again, saying socialism=Communism shows a lack of understanding about both things.

4) Many of you think the country is too socialist, I don't.  I don't call you immoral for holding that opinion, I just think you are incorrect.  One of the reasons I poked my head in here is because this board has a strong tendency to group-think.  Hundreds of millions of people disagree with you, but many just call everyone else an idiot, or a 'libtard'.  Well, great...but you won't win elections unless you get some better ammunition.

5) I also have to point out that I really do understand where you are all coming from.  I went through a Libertarian phase myself, I even helped convince my local caucus to vote for Ron Paul once.  So don't try to paint me as an unthinking Democrat when that is far from reality.  I have actual reasons for believing what I believe.  I think America can be a better place, and I am willing to fight politically for that.  Apparently people like erictank are willing to threaten physical violence if democracy does not go their way.  I am not willing to make the same statement.  If the majority of the American people would have been able to elect a government that did not support the ideals I champion, I would be working within the system to change them, not threatening rebellion because you don't get your way.  It isn't always the 'government' and black helicopters.  It is often the other half of the country who has a differing opinion on how the country should work.

6) In my opinion, America today is a better place than America before social reforms began.  You might beg to differ, and that is your right.  So fight for it politically, like I do.  What we have here is the essence of democracy.  I get the impression that you think the 'government' is a faceless entity that seeks to attack you, but that is not so.  I am a citizen, and right now the 'government' is doing some of the things I have wanted it to do.  I am sure you will get your chance again, but you will get your chance sooner if you moderate your voice and try to reach out to my side, instead of lashing out every time you are confronted with a different world-view.

7) I would be one of the people paying taxes, so you can't say I want an entitlement state for my own direct benefit.  I think our country would be stronger if we raised taxes to pay for public health care and public college level education.  I do support 'opt-out' programs and tax credits though, if that is what it takes.  I would rather have 75% of the country progress than 0%.

Of course, I imagine to most of you I am still a horribly mis-guided, stupid, possibly evil, cretin.  So be it, I do not hold you to the same opinion even though we disagree on some politics.  Don't expect too many more replies on this thread though, because I think we understand one another and I won't respond unless I feel it is constructive to do so.

Jamisjockey

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #88 on: September 22, 2009, 12:53:57 PM »
Okay fine.
In the exercise of reasonable discussion:
Take your point on "responsible" socialisim (although I still contend that socialisim isn't the end means of the modern progressive).
How do you justify the continued creation and growth of an "eater" class?  People who contribute nothing to society and yet continue to draw from society?  How do you justify an unequal yoking of the classes?  

Would you walk into a store and take something from their shelves, without paying for it, and just tell the shop-owner that you deserve it by virtue of breathing?

The inherent flaw in modern socialism is the creation of the entitlement class.  How is it morally acceptable for an entire class able bodied citizenry to be allowed to take and take from the system, while all those “above” them are burdened with their care?  The system in place in most of the Western world rewards the lazy underbelly of society, and conversely incrementally punishes the successful, who are charged with caring for them.  Ever see a lazy ant?  Of course not!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 02:06:17 PM by JamisJockey »
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Rudy Kohn

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #89 on: September 22, 2009, 02:42:00 PM »
mellestad,
Your argument seems to hinge on a false dichotomy and what I consider a misreading of history.
First, the dichotomy:  either more progress (socialism) or return to 1776.  This assumes that socialism is what turned America from a rural, backwater nation in the 18th century to the economic and scientific powerhouse of the 20th, and that turning back the clock on government intervention would result in a return to 18th century conditions.

Now, the history:  I suggest that it is not social programs that made America great, but rather the lack of government intervention and social programs (compared to the rest of the world) that persisted until the middle of the 20th century.  In the last 50 or 60 years (maybe a bit more), socialism in America has progressed to the point where we're actually on par with the rest of the world, and what has happened to our standing with respect to them?  Decline.

I posit that, without socialistic programs transferring wealth from the productive to the non-productive, we'd (the non-productive included) be in much better shape economically, technologically, and culturally.  As a former libertarian, you should be familiar with these arguments.    I'm curious as to what arguments changed your mind.  There's nothing unrealistic about my argument so far, except that it relies on a restrictive (and, I would argue, correct) interpretation of the Constitution, something we've gotten away from in the last 50-100 years, with arguably negative results.

MicroBalrog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #90 on: September 22, 2009, 04:23:28 PM »
I'd rather live in a rural, backwater nation and be free than live in a world superpower and be a slave.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #91 on: September 22, 2009, 04:29:03 PM »
I'd rather live in a rural, backwater nation and be free than live in a world superpower and be a slave.


YOU DID IT AGAIN!  oh the agony!
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Strings

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #92 on: September 22, 2009, 04:59:57 PM »
Just hitting one point...

>What we have here is the essence of democracy.<

You are absolutely correct. However, it has been a known fact that total democracy will only last until the body politic realizes they can vote themselves money (read: "entitlement programs") from the treasury, at which point it collapses. Which is pretty much where we're currently going.

It also ignores that the US was intended to be a republic...
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mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #93 on: September 22, 2009, 05:09:45 PM »
Okay fine.
In the exercise of reasonable discussion:
Take your point on "responsible" socialisim (although I still contend that socialisim isn't the end means of the modern progressive).
How do you justify the continued creation and growth of an "eater" class?  People who contribute nothing to society and yet continue to draw from society?  How do you justify an unequal yoking of the classes?  

Would you walk into a store and take something from their shelves, without paying for it, and just tell the shop-owner that you deserve it by virtue of breathing?

The inherent flaw in modern socialism is the creation of the entitlement class.  How is it morally acceptable for an entire class able bodied citizenry to be allowed to take and take from the system, while all those “above” them are burdened with their care?  The system in place in most of the Western world rewards the lazy underbelly of society, and conversely incrementally punishes the successful, who are charged with caring for them.  Ever see a lazy ant?  Of course not!

I don't think socialism has to equal entitlement though.  Granted, I am willing to accept a certain percentage because no system is perfect.  With that understanding, I agree with you!  I think we should work to make sure that percentage remains as low as possible for legitimate users of social services vs. non-productive waste.


mellestad,
Your argument seems to hinge on a false dichotomy and what I consider a misreading of history.
First, the dichotomy:  either more progress (socialism) or return to 1776.  This assumes that socialism is what turned America from a rural, backwater nation in the 18th century to the economic and scientific powerhouse of the 20th, and that turning back the clock on government intervention would result in a return to 18th century conditions.

Now, the history:  I suggest that it is not social programs that made America great, but rather the lack of government intervention and social programs (compared to the rest of the world) that persisted until the middle of the 20th century.  In the last 50 or 60 years (maybe a bit more), socialism in America has progressed to the point where we're actually on par with the rest of the world, and what has happened to our standing with respect to them?  Decline.

I posit that, without socialistic programs transferring wealth from the productive to the non-productive, we'd (the non-productive included) be in much better shape economically, technologically, and culturally.  As a former libertarian, you should be familiar with these arguments.    I'm curious as to what arguments changed your mind.  There's nothing unrealistic about my argument so far, except that it relies on a restrictive (and, I would argue, correct) interpretation of the Constitution, something we've gotten away from in the last 50-100 years, with arguably negative results.


My point would be that I can show you socialist countries that do very well, but can you show me a modern country that operates using your values, and is successful at the level of a first world nation?  If you try to correlate American socialism with American regress, I can just as easily show you how our nation become more powerful as we increased socialism.  I would not correlate the two though, because I think American power is more complex than the left vs. right of our domestic politics.  Again, I have a lot of sympathy for the libertarian ideal, I just don't see any hard evidence that it can function well, just lots of conjecture and maybes.  If you could show me a well functioning libertarian society, I would love to live there (Like in the book Freehold, for you nerds).


I'd rather live in a rural, backwater nation and be free than live in a world superpower and be a slave.

Taking away the appeal to emotion by using the word slave, I would rather live in a modern fully-socialist country like Norway than live in a rural, backwater nation with complete freedom.  If I wanted total freedom I could just live off the grid.

Good discussion so far!  I don't poke my head in to convert anyone, or because I enjoy getting beat up...I do it because it is important to challenge my own political beliefs, and adapt them when needed.  APS always brings back results in that regard!


Just hitting one point...

>What we have here is the essence of democracy.<

You are absolutely correct. However, it has been a known fact that total democracy will only last until the body politic realizes they can vote themselves money (read: "entitlement programs") from the treasury, at which point it collapses. Which is pretty much where we're currently going.

It also ignores that the US was intended to be a republic...

When people use democracy, like I do, we don't mean mass rule, we mean the process of democratic representation in general.  The US is still a republic, if it were not we would be voting on the health care bill directly.  Also, I do not advocate pulling money for social services from nowhere, I understand how taxation works, and accept that painful reality.

MicroBalrog

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #94 on: September 22, 2009, 05:19:59 PM »
Quote
Taking away the appeal to emotion by using the word slave, I would rather live in a modern fully-socialist country like Norway than live in a rural, backwater nation with complete freedom.  If

I live in a modern, fully-socialist country. I have experienced the glories of socialism.

The problem, as I said, for me, has nothing to do with taxes, and everything to do with the piles of regulations and infringements  and tiny rules that pile up and - TOGETHER - weigh a whole lot.
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Rudy Kohn

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #95 on: September 22, 2009, 05:41:27 PM »
Well, I had a really long post set up that addressed MicroBalrog and Strings, but since mellestad has replied, I'll try this:
My point would be that I can show you socialist countries that do very well, but can you show me a modern country that operates using your values, and is successful at the level of a first world nation?  If you try to correlate American socialism with American regress, I can just as easily show you how our nation become more powerful as we increased socialism.  I would not correlate the two though, because I think American power is more complex than the left vs. right of our domestic politics.  Again, I have a lot of sympathy for the libertarian ideal, I just don't see any hard evidence that it can function well, just lots of conjecture and maybes.

I would give as examples the United States before World War II and England spanning from the 17th (ish? maybe a bit earlier?) through 19th centuries.  Both, during those times, had very few restrictions on the accumulation of capital while having limited governments that typically restricted themselves to protecting the rights of the people and not redistributing wealth.  Both cases resulted in a previously unimportant nation emerging onto the world stage despite the efforts of the rest of the world to outstrip them.
Both cases ended with massive expansions of government power and control over the lives of its citizens, and, after that, both cases went (very slowly) from being arguably the most prosperous nation in the world to a much less relatively prosperous position.  The momentum achieved by both kept their socialist policies from having immediate effect, but eventually their consumption of capital began to become overwhelming.
(Actually drawing a line is difficult because the advance of socialism was a slow process in both cases.  I picked around the time the U.K.'s Fabian society published their famous manifesto and around the time of the New Deal.  Both cases were a point when the progress of socialistic policy became more rapid)

My position has less to do with right/left (however you define them) and more to do with economics.  I think that less control and less interventionism allows people to create more wealth.  Every dollar you take from a rich man and give to a poor man hurts twice; it discourages the rich man from making more dollars and discourages the poor man from bettering himself.
Pro-socialist-policy people seem to have the idea that they can, with a bit of tinkering, get rid of the losers that exist in a purely capitalist system.  I have seen no evidence that this is true.  Entitlement systems tend to result in ever-growing underclasses dependent on handouts.
This results in an endlessly spiraling cost that inevitably drains the lifeblood of the nation.  It can take a century, but it eventually happens.
The pro-control side always claims that all they need is a little bit more control and everything will be hunky-dory, but that's never the case.  Usually, the unintended consequences of a piece of regulation are the very cause of the new problem anyway.

You said earlier that you think that the one more little step of nationalized healthcare is in the right direction.  I've seen some of the pro-nationalization side's evidence and disagree with their conclusion, based on the evidence.  I posit that further government control of the health sector, no matter how well-intentioned, will result in unintended consequences which will (sooner or later) lower the quality of our care.

Strings

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #96 on: September 22, 2009, 05:50:25 PM »
If you want to look at it honestly, socialism works quite well: in small groups. Really, the old hunter/gatherer tribes were basically socialist.

Unfortunately, once you get to larger groups, rot springs up. And honestly, there is no way of keeping that rot under control except to keep social programs (any of the entitlement programs) to a bare minimum...

Let's take a serious look at healthcare. Not with an eye towards the government taking it over, but with an eye towards fixing the system (again: the government couldn't run a brothel successfully: they won't be any better at healthcare). Therein lies the problem with all the proposals coming out of Washington right now: they ALL want the government taking things over...
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

Screw it: just autoclave the planet (thanks Birdman)

Jamisjockey

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #97 on: September 22, 2009, 05:57:27 PM »
I don't think socialism has to equal entitlement though.  Granted, I am willing to accept a certain percentage because no system is perfect.  With that understanding, I agree with you!  I think we should work to make sure that percentage remains as low as possible for legitimate users of social services vs. non-productive waste.

\

But the modern societal norm is that its acceptable to live on the government dole.  Therefore, your socialist utopia is a broken model.  It holds society back rather than promoting it.  For it to work, it would have to be rebuilt from the ground up. 
Progressive socialism isn't designed to help people.  It is designed to build a dependent class who will keep a certain group of enablers in power.  Some animals are more equal than others.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

mellestad

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #98 on: September 22, 2009, 06:17:22 PM »
But the modern societal norm is that its acceptable to live on the government dole.  Therefore, your socialist utopia is a broken model.  It holds society back rather than promoting it.  For it to work, it would have to be rebuilt from the ground up. 
Progressive socialism isn't designed to help people.  It is designed to build a dependent class who will keep a certain group of enablers in power.  Some animals are more equal than others.


I never claimed a utopia would result, and I don't think the average American finds if 'acceptable' to live on the dole.  The people who game the system are not going to be productive no matter what the system is.  This, again seems like the slippery slope argument, and I don't find that convincing.

Rudy:  Using England in the 18th century does not help much.  If I had to pick a crappy time to live as a laborer, 18th century England would not be it!  Maybe that is the difference.  I am not claiming that socialism will increase the economy, but I don't think economic progress is the most important ideal we should be striving for.  The societies that function like that are great, but only if you are doing well.  When you do poorly, there is no safety net.  You get the Great Depression and 18th century London.

Did those systems allow people to become wealthy?  Yes.  But wealth is not the ultimate measure of humanity.

Again, I think we all understand one another.  I respect your opinions, I understand your opinions, but I disagree with them.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: A good Democrat?
« Reply #99 on: September 22, 2009, 06:59:29 PM »
I live in a modern, fully-socialist country. I have experienced the glories of socialism.

The problem, as I said, for me, has nothing to do with taxes, and everything to do with the piles of regulations and infringements  and tiny rules that pile up and - TOGETHER - weigh a whole lot.


there you go interjecting your real life experience against his study of references. unfair!

jeebus there is a certain irony to my making that observation using you ain't there...... :angel: :O
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I