Author Topic: Just Who Is the Hero?  (Read 12136 times)

roo_ster

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Just Who Is the Hero?
« on: February 02, 2008, 09:10:01 AM »

General Loan and captured Viet Cong officer:


[Below text is quoted from the following site:]
http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2008/02/the.html
[Qiute a few liks at  the original]



Which of these men did the photographer think was a hero?


This morning is the fortieth anniversary of one of the iconic images of the Vietnam War. It was taken on 1 February 1968, with the Tet offensive in its early stages. It pictures General Nguyan Ngoc Loan executing a Vietcong prisoner.

It is, no question about it, a terrible image.

This morning, with its admirable instinct for a story, the Today programme told the tale of Eddie Adams's photograph and the impact it made.

Sadly Adams is dead, so the programme featured a different, but also distinguished, war photographer Philip Jones Griffiths. And Jones Griffiths described his feelings about the photo and his own decision to track down and photograph the executed man's widow.

Jones Griffiths had strong views on the photo and gave them to us.

He dismissed the idea that the executed man had been a killer saying both that the idea that the man had just killed others was "kind of propaganda" and that "he wouldn't have been much of a Vietcong soldier" if he hadn't tried to kill people. He clearly viewed the photo's power as being its revelation of the evil of the war and America's involvement.

These were interesting, legitimate, opinions. But it is a shame that it wasn't mentioned that they were not remotely the views held by Eddie Adams of his own photo.

Here's what Eddie Adams had to say about General Loan:

Quote
    The guy was a hero.

And - surely an essential point in any proper discussion of the history of the photograph - here's what he had to say in Time magazine about his photograph:
Quote
    The general killed the Viet Cong; I killed the general with my camera. Still photographs are the most powerful weapon in the world.

    People believe them, but photographs do lie, even without manipulation. They are only half-truths.

    What the photograph didn't say was, 'What would you do if you were the general at that time and place on that hot day, and you caught the so-called bad guy after he blew away one, two or three American soldiers?

When Loan died, Adams - who had called him many times to apologise for the damage done to Loan's reputation - sent a bunch of flowers with the inscription:

Quote
    I'm sorry. There are tears in my eyes.

Adams wished he had never taken the photo, and whether or not he was right about this I think it should have been mentioned this morning, don't you?



South Vietnamese sources said that L?m commanded a Viet Cong assassination platoon, which on that day had targeted South Vietnamese National Police officers, or in their stead, the police officers' families; these sources said that L?m was captured near the site of a ditch holding as many as thirty-four bound and shot bodies of police and their relatives, some of whom were the families of General Loan's deputy and close friend.



According to wikipedia, Gen Loan moved to the US after the war, opened a pizza parlor, but had to give it up when his identity was publicized in 1991 and he received death threats.
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roo_ster

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Tecumseh

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2008, 09:15:40 AM »
Interesting read.  However the general was wrong to murder prisoners. 

Brad Johnson

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2008, 09:34:07 AM »
Interesting read.  However the general was wrong to murder prisoners. 

Do some research on the photo. The "prisoner" was a well-known enemy officer captured out of uniform.

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Tecumseh

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2008, 11:15:34 AM »
Still murdering prisoners does not seem to be a good idea without a trial. 

RevDisk

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2008, 11:43:01 AM »
Still murdering prisoners does not seem to be a good idea without a trial. 

It is fully legal under the Gevena Convention and Hague.  Spies or assassains may be summarily executed.  Historically, this has always been the case.  While I agree that spies might be of useful value as a potential informant or double agent, executing a member of a foreign military sent to execute police officers and/or their families is not distasteful.

The gentleman being shot in the photo was a enemy officer of foreign hostile nation at war with the nation he was captured.  He was acting as a spy and sent to specifically create atrocities. 

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2008, 11:55:15 AM »
...and had committed them.  The man was directly responsible for killing or ordering the killing of numerous local official's families.

Officials whose only crime was to do their jobs as part of the non-military bureaucracy.  Their families, of course, not even having that "crime" on their list.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2008, 01:20:49 PM »
Cool S&W Bodyguard model!
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Bigjake

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2008, 01:29:33 PM »
Is that a Smith?? I had guessed that, but couldn't verify.

And screw the dude getting popped, he had it comming.

De Selby

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2008, 01:39:55 PM »
Still murdering prisoners does not seem to be a good idea without a trial. 

It is fully legal under the Gevena Convention and Hague.  Spies or assassains may be summarily executed.  Historically, this has always been the case.  While I agree that spies might be of useful value as a potential informant or double agent, executing a member of a foreign military sent to execute police officers and/or their families is not distasteful.

The gentleman being shot in the photo was a enemy officer of foreign hostile nation at war with the nation he was captured.  He was acting as a spy and sent to specifically create atrocities. 



Sorry, have to disagree. This has never been the case-although it has happened in practice, just like other crimes. 

Spies and assassins are stripped of the immunities given to soldiers-a soldier in uniform cannot be tried for murder, for example, even if he engages in conduct that would be murder under a criminal statute (hiding in the bushes and shooting someone else, for example.)

Spies and assassins, at least in legal theory, are simply subject to whatever the criminal law happens to be where they are.  If there are laws against espionage and murder, they get whatever the prescribed punishment is for those crimes.  That has always been the rule-"summary execution" makes the fact finder, judge, and executioner all the same person, and reduces the process needed to justify a killing to one man's say so.  These are things that have never been a feature of the Continental/English legal systems.
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Iain

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2008, 01:43:44 PM »
Not really seeing a hero. Just dirty unpleasant human affairs. Not willing to attempt to crucify Loan, not willing to venerate him either.
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Bogie

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2008, 02:04:24 PM »
Let's play "what if" here...
 
We know what happened - this photo is a cultural monument of the war.
 
What if the photo hadn't happened? What if the photographer had been looking the other way down the street when the general parted the guy's hair?

What likely would be different? Would lives have been saved? (on our side... not really worried about the other side...) Would the war have been over faster, with less political stuff, and more strategy stuff?
 
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2008, 04:34:07 PM »
Any idea whether such a summary execution was legal under Vietnamese military, martial or civil law at the time then?

Could have been a 100% legal act.
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Tuco

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2008, 05:33:44 PM »
Cool S&W Bodyguard model!

My exact thought.  I remember researching that model as a kid, because of this photo.

The hero is the winner, (as in "the winners write history").
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De Selby

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2008, 05:42:57 PM »
Any idea whether such a summary execution was legal under Vietnamese military, martial or civil law at the time then?

Could have been a 100% legal act.

Under Vietnamese law, it might have been, but it would have been punishable as a war crime by any country that chose to take up the case.  Just because something is domestically legal doesn't mean a European/American court won't try the case as a crime, like they have done to many of this world's notorious war criminals.
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Werewolf

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2008, 07:13:52 AM »
To shootinstudent and Tecumseh....

Children - war is a nasty business. Guys like you want to make it clean or at best less nasty. Trouble is the less nasty it is the more likely it is to be used as a policy tool and any conflict will last longer than necessary.

THE NASTIER, DIRTIER, MORE HORRIBLE & ATROCIOUS war is the less likely it will be used by National Governments (at least sane and civilized ones - can't do anything about the whack jobs out there).

If that isn't true then being NASTIER, DIRTIER, MORE HORRIBLE & ATROCIOUS will tend to make it over quicker.

As for rules of war? When push comes to shove history shows that no matter what the rules are the victor decides whether they're enforced and appropriate punishments.

Robert E Lee said something to the effect, It is good that war is so horrible lest we grow to fond of it!

That gentleman knew where of he spoke.
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wooderson

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2008, 07:31:06 AM »
Quote
If that isn't true then being NASTIER, DIRTIER, MORE HORRIBLE & ATROCIOUS will tend to make it over quicker.
This is a wonderful theory, but in practice doesn't work - as evidenced by Vietnam essentially being a 30-year war, which we were heavily involved with for 10.

It's kind of like the argument that the brutality of the Great War would ever keep us from doing it again - how'd that work out?
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Werewolf

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2008, 07:56:56 AM »
Quote
If that isn't true then being NASTIER, DIRTIER, MORE HORRIBLE & ATROCIOUS will tend to make it over quicker.
This is a wonderful theory, but in practice doesn't work - as evidenced by Vietnam essentially being a 30-year war, which we were heavily involved with for 10.

It's kind of like the argument that the brutality of the Great War would ever keep us from doing it again - how'd that work out?
Non sequitor... Oh and the Great War lasted just 4 years in great part because it was so brutal that both the Central and Allied powers were essentially worn out. Germany shot it's wad in the spring of 1918 and the allies barely hung on. Even without US intervention WWI was essentially over by the summer of 1918. At worst there would have been a truce or armistice like in Korea. At best there would have been a peace treaty with way less devastating effects on Germany and that may have resulted in - if not preventing WWII - at least delaying it for another 20 years or so.

RE: Vietnam - brutal at the micro level? - not really - and certainly not at the macro level.

Vietnam was not fought by the US with the full conventional force available to it. Maybe necessarily, if one believes the arguments about the chinese getting involved if we did. Fact is we could have conventionally bombed the north into oblivion and wrecked its ability to support the NVA, killed the NVA wherever they chose to hide and used the S. Vietnmese to ruthlessly root out the viet cong.

Political considerations prohibited this. Sinking the ships of so called allies supplying the north - not gonna happen, (mining hanoi harbor, not surprisingly, was quite effective but by then the war was lost). Bombing Hanoi into dust, obliterating the railroads, firebombing the trails, none of these things were going to be allowed in Johnson's so called limited war. Crossing political boundaries to kill the viet cong and NVA units, rarely done, and when it was, just on a limited basis - but we could have.

We didn't fight the war in Vietnam to the best of our ability and 50,000 good men died because of it over many, many years.

I'm here to tell you that Vietnam is proof positive of my point. It was fought at the micro level instead of the macro level and was far from the total war many would like to believe it was. The N. Vietnamese were not forced to suffer the death and destruction at the national level that would have defeated them.

Funny how history seems to repeat itself...
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Firethorn

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2008, 08:17:52 AM »
As Werewolf said, Vietnam is a very good example of what happens when you try to pretty up war.

I'm Air Force, and part of my training was a history and analysis of the Korean and Vietnam wars.  The general conclusion that if we had been allowed(not able, we were able,  just didn't have permission) to conduct operations as we wished that we(the USAF) would have been able to break the NV's industry and transportation abilities to the point that they would have been unable to conduct significant military operations.  We would have been able to shut down transportation corridors, etc...

Heck, I read that the NV almost broke under the linebacker operations - if they'd simply continued them.

No, Vietnam is not a good example.

Tecumseh

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2008, 08:57:06 AM »
Any idea whether such a summary execution was legal under Vietnamese military, martial or civil law at the time then?

Could have been a 100% legal act.
  Doen't mean it is right.

wooderson

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2008, 09:01:36 AM »
Quote
Non sequitor...
No, it's not. The Great War and aftermath are entirely relevant to arguments that the 'brutality' of war will make it unappealing and shorter. As we now know, no matter how horrifying a war might be, that won't stop anyone from doing it again, within a generation.

Quote
Oh and the Great War lasted just 4 years in great part because it was so brutal that both the Central and Allied powers were essentially worn out.
'Wearing out' is not the same as 'the nastiness of war will make it shorter' (presumably saving lives in the process, if nastiness is to be made into a positive argument). WWI didn't end because people grew a distaste for the carnage.

Quote
Fact is we could have conventionally bombed the north into oblivion and wrecked its ability to support the NVA, killed the NVA wherever they chose to hide and used the S. Vietnmese to ruthlessly root out the viet cong.
And if we had nuked them into oblivion, yada yada yada.

The infinite potential for greater inhumanity is not the same as arguing that Vietnam was 'clean.' It was dirty/nasty/horrible - on both sides, as the story above relates - and that didn't shorten it in the least.

What did shorten it was the US home front's growing displeasure at feeling the pinch from a war they didn't see a benefit from. That sound familiar?
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De Selby

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2008, 12:23:20 PM »
To shootinstudent and Tecumseh....

Children - war is a nasty business. Guys like you want to make it clean or at best less nasty. Trouble is the less nasty it is the more likely it is to be used as a policy tool and any conflict will last longer than necessary.

This could be a quote from the Bin Laden fatwa where he declared war against America.  That's literally his line: "If it will end the war more quickly, any amount of killing in any place is okay."


Quote
THE NASTIER, DIRTIER, MORE HORRIBLE & ATROCIOUS war is the less likely it will be used by National Governments (at least sane and civilized ones - can't do anything about the whack jobs out there).

If that isn't true then being NASTIER, DIRTIER, MORE HORRIBLE & ATROCIOUS will tend to make it over quicker.

As for rules of war? When push comes to shove history shows that no matter what the rules are the victor decides whether they're enforced and appropriate punishments.

Robert E Lee said something to the effect, It is good that war is so horrible lest we grow to fond of it!

That gentleman knew where of he spoke.


Apparently you and Osama Bin Laden are on the same page on this point.

Personally, I think the results of terrorism and murder speak for themselves-you turn whole nations against you, and become reviled in history as barbaric.   If you survive long enough to read the histories that are written, that is, which many people who have chosen this "total war" path do not manage to achieve.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2008, 12:25:58 PM »

Heck, I read that the NV almost broke under the linebacker operations - if they'd simply continued them.

No, Vietnam is not a good example.

I have a hard time believing that victory was always around the corner, yet the war dragged on for more than a decade and the North Vietnamese side obliterated its opposition almost immediately after US troops pulled out. 

If you continue any war to the point of total genocide, yes, it's possible to win with superior technology and numbers.  But I don't think that qualifies as a "we could have won!" situation-not when the whole theory is establishing and promoting democracy, anyway.  You can't kill another country into freedom.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Joe Demko

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2008, 12:34:01 PM »
There's no hero in that picture.  I see a gunman from one corrupt, repressive regime putting a bullet in the head of a gunman from another corrupt, repressive regime.  See, the world isn't like the movies.  It's not always, or even often, good guys versus badguys.  Mostly it seems to be bad guys versus other badguys.
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Tecumseh

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2008, 01:13:16 PM »
There's no hero in that picture.  I see a gunman from one corrupt, repressive regime putting a bullet in the head of a gunman from another corrupt, repressive regime.  See, the world isn't like the movies.  It's not always, or even often, good guys versus badguys.  Mostly it seems to be bad guys versus other badguys.
  Kind of like Iraq.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Just Who Is the Hero?
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2008, 02:29:48 PM »
Still murdering prisoners does not seem to be a good idea without a trial. 

It is fully legal under the Gevena Convention and Hague.  Spies or assassains may be summarily executed.  Historically, this has always been the case.  While I agree that spies might be of useful value as a potential informant or double agent, executing a member of a foreign military sent to execute police officers and/or their families is not distasteful.

The gentleman being shot in the photo was a enemy officer of foreign hostile nation at war with the nation he was captured.  He was acting as a spy and sent to specifically create atrocities. 



Sorry, have to disagree. This has never been the case-although it has happened in practice, just like other crimes. 

Spies and assassins are stripped of the immunities given to soldiers-a soldier in uniform cannot be tried for murder, for example, even if he engages in conduct that would be murder under a criminal statute (hiding in the bushes and shooting someone else, for example.)

Spies and assassins, at least in legal theory, are simply subject to whatever the criminal law happens to be where they are.  If there are laws against espionage and murder, they get whatever the prescribed punishment is for those crimes.  That has always been the rule-"summary execution" makes the fact finder, judge, and executioner all the same person, and reduces the process needed to justify a killing to one man's say so.  These are things that have never been a feature of the Continental/English legal systems.

I think I have to disagree with your disagreement. At least in part.

At least insofar as the Geneva Conventions are concerned, I think the NVA (he was not Viet Cong) neatly eliminated himself from their purview when he took off his uniform. Let's look at it. Convention #3 deals with prisoners of war. Convention #4 deals with civilians.

Prisoners of war are:
Quote
Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

I think we can probably agree that the NVA was not operating in accordance with at least prerequisites (2)(b) and (2)(d). Ergo, he was not a "prisoner of war" within the purview of Convention #3.

Moving on to Convention #4, which deals with civilians under enemy control, we find the following:
Quote
Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

The NVA was clearly taking an active part in the hostilities, and thus would not be covered under the purview of the above portion of Convention #4. However, Convention #4 later specifically addresses spies:

Quote
Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.

In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.

This appears to say that spies may be detained under such circumstances and conditions as the "occupying power" (in other words, the captor) deems necessary to protect its own security -- but it doesn't appear to support summary execution. It appears to require a "fair and regular" trial at the earliest practicable date. It does not seem to require or provide, however, that the trial be conducted by or under the civilan laws of the country/jurisdiction in which the capture is effected. With the usual IANAL disclaimer, it doesn't appear to me that the Convention precludes subjecting a spy or saboteur to a military trial.
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