Author Topic: Can you build a life from $25?  (Read 23086 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #100 on: February 17, 2008, 07:53:13 AM »
If you show me a good reason to discount what this author said, I'll do it.  So far you haven't. 

Show me a good, sound, rational reason why Adam's story is wrong.

Tallpine

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #101 on: February 17, 2008, 07:55:12 AM »
There was a time when our annual income would have put us down way below the "poverty level."  But we never considered ourselves "poor."  We always had some money in the bank, to the amazement of some folks who made ten times as much but who lived paycheck to paycheck.  I was trying to build up a business from scratch so we also had a considerable amount of equipment, all of which was old and took constant repair to keep running.

So we didn't qualify and wouldn't ask for "public assistance" - they would just expect me to liquidate my assets (my job) and then sit on my butt.  rolleyes

Other things happened ... I got sick, and actually was on a disability for a few years while I went to college.  I don't like that fact but what do you do with a wife and two little kids?

The point I'm trying to make is that we always held our heads up and we always budgeted even when we had little to budget, and we managed to make do.  There is no shame to being "poor" - it is what you do with it that counts.  I worked like a dog for those 4 years of school even though I was sick the whole time: made straight A's, did "work-study" at a real job at the local hospital, and even did some volunteer work in the community.

The problem that I see is that some of our sub-cultures seem to have an attitude of victimhood, poverty, and irresponsibility.  I wasn't raised that way, but I guess those that are, really are "handicapped" in a sense.  I don't know how you fix that - you can never throw enough money at them to help them.  Somewhere along the way they have to start taking responsibility for their own actions and behavior.

I don't have a problem with helping people who are down on their luck.  I've been there myself, and I've also donated to help others in need.  But I get tired of being forced to donate (taxes) for people who won't lift a finger to help themselves.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

ilbob

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #102 on: February 17, 2008, 08:46:00 AM »
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It means what we've been trying to tell you all along: circumstances don't determine the outcome.  Other factors do.  Prime among those other factors are the quality of an individual's attitude, decision making, and actions.
How do you arrive at that conclusion?

What allows you to exclude "circumstances"?

What allows you to include "attitude, decision making, and actions" - what evidence do you have that those are primary determinants? How do we measure "attitude"?
Do you really believe that an individual's response to his circumstances is not the primary determinant in how he fares under adverse circumstances?

I wish I could find it online so i could link to it, but I can't. I once read an article by an economist who had studied poverty at length. Do you know what he found was the number one factor in getting a family out of poverty? It was whether or not the family included a father/husband. Intact families in poverty rarely stayed there for very long.
bob

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wooderson

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #103 on: February 17, 2008, 09:44:03 AM »
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The argument would have a shred of credibility if you could name one such book.
Why does that matter? What if it was a guy you met on the street saying it?

"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

wooderson

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #104 on: February 17, 2008, 09:46:20 AM »
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In another post you posited this question: "What you gonna do about it?"

Mayhap I should rephrase the question.

If he is not willing to put forth the effort to overcome these problems, why should I be concerned for his welfare?
What does solving social problems have to do with being "concerned for his welfare"?
 
Do you not think that we all benefit from not having crackheads roam the streets? That petty crime is a social ill? That areas deluged with the homeless suffer economically? That there are widespread costs of poverty that are shouldered by those not in poverty?


"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

wooderson

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #105 on: February 17, 2008, 09:47:34 AM »
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If you show me a good reason to discount what this author said, I'll do it.  So far you haven't.

What is there to discount? I haven't responded to the author - who we've not actually seen any broad assertions from - but to the responses here. Duh.

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Show me a good, sound, rational reason why Adam's story is wrong.
Where did I say his "story is wrong"?

Can you find that quote?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

wooderson

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #106 on: February 17, 2008, 09:49:30 AM »
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Do you really believe that an individual's response to his circumstances is not the primary determinant in how he fares under adverse circumstances?
Sometimes it might, sometimes it might not. That doesn't seem to be getting through to you.

Now, can you demonstrate that an "individual's response" is the "primary determinant"? Or are you content to just believe it because it's comforting to you?

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I wish I could find it online so i could link to it, but I can't. I once read an article by an economist who had studied poverty at length. Do you know what he found was the number one factor in getting a family out of poverty? It was whether or not the family included a father/husband. Intact families in poverty rarely stayed there for very long.
A circumstance that's not controllable by the mother or the child determines the length of their stay in poverty?

You sure you really meant to bring that up?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #107 on: February 17, 2008, 10:04:45 AM »
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If you show me a good reason to discount what this author said, I'll do it.  So far you haven't.

What is there to discount? I haven't responded to the author - who we've not actually seen any broad assertions from - but to the responses here. Duh.

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Show me a good, sound, rational reason why Adam's story is wrong.
Where did I say his "story is wrong"?

Can you find that quote?
Don't start with the hair splitting word games again.  I won't let you go there any more. 

You've made numerous statements throughout this thread that contradict what the author says.   You laughed at me for believing that the author is telling us the truth.  It's clear that you disagree with what the author said, and you disagree with me for believing what the author said. 

Tell me why I am wrong to believe that the author is telling the truth, or STFU.

wooderson

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #108 on: February 17, 2008, 10:09:04 AM »
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You laughed at me for believing that the author is telling us the truth.
No, I didn't.

Questioning the author's position to make definitive statements (and your position to believe them wholeheartedly) is, in no way, saying that he isn't "telling us the truth."

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It's clear that you disagree with what the author said, and you disagree with me for believing what the author said.
Give me something the "author said" - an exact quote (which is not what you referred to earlier), and I might agree or disagree with it.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

grislyatoms

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #109 on: February 17, 2008, 10:25:47 AM »
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What does solving social problems have to do with being "concerned for his welfare"?

I don't follow your logic here.

Could you please answer my question? This one:

"If he is not willing to put forth the effort to overcome these problems, why should I be concerned for his welfare?"
 
"A son of the sea, am I" Gordon Lightfoot

wooderson

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #110 on: February 17, 2008, 10:31:05 AM »
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I don't follow your logic here.
Because you can be concerned about social problems for personal (nee selfish) reasons as well as concern for the welfare of those afflicted.

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"If he is not willing to put forth the effort to overcome these problems, why should I be concerned for his welfare?"
Once again, I've never said you should be. Don't know how this is difficult to understand.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

grislyatoms

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #111 on: February 17, 2008, 10:45:45 AM »
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Because you can be concerned about social problems for personal (nee selfish) reasons as well as concern for the welfare of those afflicted.
So, if I show no concern for folks unwilling to help themselves, that makes it a selfish reason? So be it. I can live with that.

No more selfish than those who expect me (and every other taxpayer) to pay their way through life without them ever lifting a finger to help themselves.
"A son of the sea, am I" Gordon Lightfoot

wooderson

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #112 on: February 17, 2008, 11:02:13 AM »
Don't hurt your knee jumping to conclusions, buddy.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

grislyatoms

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #113 on: February 17, 2008, 11:08:58 AM »
Don't hurt your knee jumping to conclusions, buddy.

I'll be careful not to... thanks for the advice. cool
"A son of the sea, am I" Gordon Lightfoot

The Rabbi

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #114 on: February 17, 2008, 12:09:17 PM »
Or to put it in another light - if someone writes a book about how he tried damn hard, but couldn't get hired because he spoke English but had a thick Guatemalan accent, and then his kid got sick and he had to miss work and got fired from a more menial job, and he couldn't find an apartment that would rent without first, last and a security deposit, etc. etc. etc.. And though he tried really, really hard, he just couldn't succeed.

Would you then take him at their word as to the cause: "Because he told us"?

Well, here you are doubting the veracity of Adam's claim.  Not the factual basis but the explanation of it.
No, I would not believe his account as to why he couldn't get ahead.  I would see it for what it was, a series of excuses for poor performance.
There is no book like that because primarily no one is interested in reading it.  Further, the same mentality that constantly makes excuses for poor performance is also incapable of the sustained effort needed to write a book.  Although the Nickle And Dimed book comes close.
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wooderson

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #115 on: February 17, 2008, 12:22:33 PM »
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Well, here you are doubting the veracity of Adam's claim.  Not the factual basis but the explanation of it.
No, I'm "doubting the veracity" of HTG's argument that what Adam claims is absolute truth.

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No, I would not believe his account as to why he couldn't get ahead.  I would see it for what it was, a series of excuses for poor performance.

Well, there you go. You wouldn't believe the explanation even though "he told us." So when an author "tells us" something, we cannot rely on that as the final arbiter of truth, justice and the American way.

Glad you agree with me.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

The Rabbi

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Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #116 on: February 17, 2008, 12:49:57 PM »
You don't even agree with you.  Why should I?
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