Author Topic: Can you build a life from $25?  (Read 23083 times)

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2008, 06:47:28 AM »
Quote
The "it only worked because he was a college educated white guy" theory

But that isn't what I said. What I said was that he had advantages in play that are unique to his situation. He may just as well have failed - but then we never would have heard about it, right? And maybe he would have succeeded if he were born in South Central and barely graduated - but he didn't, did he?

What we have are his particulars - and those particulars are anything but universal, or applicable to situations other than his own.

Quote
I wasn't in a union when I worked the patch, and you may have missed the news coverage during Katrina, but there's a TON of oil industry related jobs in the Gulf.
For individuals with no experience? Are they constantly hiring? How much competition is there for these jobs? Why doesn't everyone in New Orleans take one? Are they just lazy?

What about all the other cities I mentioned?

Quote
And if I got hurt and couldn't do physical work back then, if I didn't decide to go back to school I would have done whatever I could to work myself up in another industry or business.
Which doesn't mean you would have succeeded.

Do you think retail was paying $20 an hour in 1982?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2008, 06:54:34 AM »
I started off with nothing, and I still have most of it.

 undecided
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,689
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2008, 07:52:44 AM »
Good story of what the guy did.

All the objections and criticisms boil down to "What if you're a bad guy who made REALLY bad decisions?" (For example, people with parole officers are CONVICTED CRIMINALS, and most addicts are not diseased, they're lowlifes who are continuing to make bad choices.)

In other words, "What if you DON'T want to make something of yourself?"

There's no help for people like that.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,215
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2008, 07:55:17 AM »
Quote
What we have are his particulars - and those particulars are anything but universal, or applicable to situations other than his own.
I can't argue with that -- we know what this particular individual did.

Quote
For individuals with no experience? Are they constantly hiring? How much competition is there for these jobs? Why doesn't everyone in New Orleans take one? Are they just lazy?

Yes and yes. I had zero experience. Me and a bunch of other guys showed up at a yard at 0600 every morning waiting to see if jobs opened up for "extra" guys. I did that for three weeks before I went out on my first job. You then work your ass off so that they ask you on another job. The guys who did that got called out more, eventually getting on a fulltime crew. The ones who didn't, or didn't show up in the yard half the time didn't go out. It was an effort based model.

New Orleans is an entitlement city and not a good model. As for the other cities you mentioned, there's all kinds of construction jobs going on in all kinds of big cities. Just look at the 7-11s where illegals "unofficially" hang out waiting for work the same way I did in that yard.

If retail didn't pay $20 an hour in 1980, so what? I was socking all kinds of money aside for investments and to pay for my future education. I could have gotten by on a lot less.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2008, 08:08:46 AM »
All the objections and criticisms boil down to "What if you're a bad guy who made REALLY bad decisions?" (For example, people with parole officers are CONVICTED CRIMINALS, and most addicts are not diseased, they're lowlifes who are continuing to make bad choices.)

In other words, "What if you DON'T want to make something of yourself?"

That about sums them up.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

CAnnoneer

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,136
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2008, 08:10:20 AM »
Break his leg, give em a kid, shoot him up with heroin a few times and start him going again... perhaps after spraypainting him to generic minority. 

Is that the typical victimologist profile? That has not been my observation.

Also, nobody forces one to have kids or shoot heroin. To say that that is the starting point of "project life" is intellectually dishonest because it obscures prior personal choices made by the same subject.

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2008, 08:13:31 AM »
My, how the liberals are squirming over this one...

 grin

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2008, 08:45:36 AM »
Quote
The "it only worked because he was a college educated white guy" theory

But that isn't what I said. What I said was that he had advantages in play that are unique to his situation. He may just as well have failed - but then we never would have heard about it, right? And maybe he would have succeeded if he were born in South Central and barely graduated - but he didn't, did he?

What we have are his particulars - and those particulars are anything but universal, or applicable to situations other than his own.


That's the point.  Those are particulars to him. Other people have particulars to them.  All of them constitute a strength or a weakness but everybody has some of both.  What unites the succesful people isn't the advantages they have, it is the desire to do something other than be a failure.
Your arguments are the enabling language of gov't bureaucrats eager to keep people dependent by giving them excuses (and that's all they are) why they can't succeed.  We need less of that.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Fjolnirsson

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,231
  • The Anti-Claus
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2008, 10:19:32 AM »
Forgive me if I tell a little story here, related to the thread.
I grew up poor. My parents had no money management skills, and my dad was an on again, off again alcoholic, with inner ear problems which prevented him from playing his trade as a high rise construction worker. He got a job at the local mill not long after I was born. We never had much, often eating a lot of rice and beans, but we did eat, even if my mother had to miss a few meals to be sure the two kids and dad were fed.
I worked nothing jobs for a couple years after high school, often walking to work when my less than totally reliable car(which I paid $400 for) would go tits up. Walking three miles in the CA summer, mind you, which in my area averaged a balmy 100-110 degrees July-August and into Sept. When I turned 21, I stopped blowing my small paychecks on booze and women. I got an apartment with a roommate. I worked crappy jobs I hated(no college degree), often three at a time. By the age of 28, I had paid in cash for a 1700 square foot home in Oregon. Then I fell down my stairs moving in, and cracked my tailbone. I was unable to walk or sit in an upright position for most of 6 months. My savings went away.

I could have given up, sold the house and gone on permanent disability. Instead, I forced myself to get well, I got a job, and I am still paying off medical bills. Meanwhile....
My wife and I have built a performing arts studio centered around her belly dance skills, and my fire performing talent. We just moved it into a 1200 sq ft retail space in downtown.
Along the way, we've had the usual trials and tribulations. Everything we have used has been self taught, or gained through self enrichment classes through parks and rec departments.

Don't tell me there's no way out of poverty. It's BS. As someone else said, everyone has a tool kit. I do agree that culture is key. Culture is what is killing young black men, and an increasing number of young white men. It's a learned belief in helplessness.
Hi.

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2008, 12:35:27 PM »
Quote
All the objections and criticisms boil down to "What if you're a bad guy who made REALLY bad decisions?" (For example, people with parole officers are CONVICTED CRIMINALS, and most addicts are not diseased, they're lowlifes who are continuing to make bad choices.)

Including the decision to be born into poverty, or the decision to wind up hurt in a car wreck, etc.. - in large part the situation does hinge on decisions.

Which is the other flaw here: the impoverished and working poor don't start out with a clear account, free of debt or entanglements.

How is his story useful to people with kids?
People in debt?
People addicted to drugs?

Yes, in part it is an issue of bad decisions: but so what? Are you interested in solving the problem or punishing people? Which is more beneficial to society - rehabilitation or punishment?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2008, 12:41:05 PM »
BenW, I didn't ask about your situation: I asked about the jobs you're referring to. As should be obvious, I'm uninterested in anecdotes - for every success there's a failure, and on the whole individual cases tell us nothing.

But let's take a step from some of your comments: what if you're not chosen for one of those good jobs day after day? Maybe you don't look right? Maybe the foreman just doesn't take to you?

What happens then? Are you responsible for that?

How long can you last waiting day to day for that employment windfall?

I know a lot of people eating beans and rice thanks to the end of the residential construction boom (thank god I've got work for 18 months at a minimum...). They had jobs like your oil field work - work hard and no one gives a damn who you are. Framers, roofers, masons and finish guys make good money as relatively skilled labor - but if the jobs aren't there, the jobs aren't there.

Does that happen in the oil industry (it most certainly does). What happens then?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2008, 12:53:52 PM »
What happens then?
You give up, go on permanent welfare, and blame everyone else for your problems.  Obviously.

Boomhauer

  • Former Moderator, fired for embezzlement and abuse of power
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,355
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2008, 01:27:16 PM »
Quote
People addicted to drugs?

I don't give a sh*t sandwich about people addicted to drugs or alcohol. They can either straighten up and go clean, or go off and die.



Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

ilbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,546
    • Bob's blog
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2008, 01:34:34 PM »
Quote
Quote
I wasn't in a union when I worked the patch, and you may have missed the news coverage during Katrina, but there's a TON of oil industry related jobs in the Gulf.

For individuals with no experience? Are they constantly hiring? How much competition is there for these jobs? Why doesn't everyone in New Orleans take one? Are they just lazy?
A lot of the oil jobs are low skill, hard work, and very well paying. They do involve very hard physical labor.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

ilbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,546
    • Bob's blog
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2008, 01:37:40 PM »
(Actually, there were similar jobs in B-more and other large cities once upon a time - union work that let people raise families without a white-collar background. What happened to those jobs?)
Liberal tax and environmental policies drove them away.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

ilbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,546
    • Bob's blog
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2008, 01:45:17 PM »
My dad worked in a factory. Not a real high paying job. During the Carter recession he was laid off much of the time. he got by on unemployment and temp jobs until things improved.

I was away at school. Carter had decided white boys needed no college help so I was mostly on my own. I worked as a security guard FT making $3.50 an hour (min wage was $3.25 IIRC) to pay for an appartment, gas, food, books and tuition while going to school. I didn't even qualify for student loans until I was near graduation. They said my dads $8 an hour job was too much (it did support my mom and three brothers).


I can't claim I got no help at all, and I am thankful for the help i did get, but, as lazy as I am, if I can do it, most people can.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

AmbulanceDriver

  • Junior Rocketeer
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,936
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2008, 03:08:33 PM »
Quote
All the objections and criticisms boil down to "What if you're a bad guy who made REALLY bad decisions?" (For example, people with parole officers are CONVICTED CRIMINALS, and most addicts are not diseased, they're lowlifes who are continuing to make bad choices.)

Including the decision to be born into poverty, or the decision to wind up hurt in a car wreck, etc.. - in large part the situation does hinge on decisions.

Which is the other flaw here: the impoverished and working poor don't start out with a clear account, free of debt or entanglements.

How is his story useful to people with kids?
People in debt?
People addicted to drugs?

Yes, in part it is an issue of bad decisions: but so what? Are you interested in solving the problem or punishing people? Which is more beneficial to society - rehabilitation or punishment?

Yeah, I know, it's Somebody Else's Faulttm

So if you have kids, you are automatically not able to work hard and save?  Does someone hold a gun to your head and say, "YOU MUST NOT WORK HARD TO PROVIDE FOR YOUR CHILDREN!"  Huh?

Oh, and people in debt?  Well, between cars, student loans, and some medical bills, my wife and I were about $60,000 in debt.  We're paying it off, as quickly as we can.  That means I work some overtime here and there, we pass up on the luxuries (most of the time) and we have the $@_&($_+)@(*&# SELF-@()&$$-DISCIPLINE TO USE A BUDGET AND PAY DOWN OUR DEBT!  Oh, but I'm sorry, that doesn't play into the LIBERAL MENTALITY THAT SOMEONE ELSE NEEDS TO GET ME OUT OF THE DECISIONS THAT I MADE! 

And the drug addicts?  I challenge you to find me ONE PERCENT that had someone FORCE them to take drugs in the first place.  Seriously.  One percent of the drug using population that someone held a $@#*)& gun to their head and MADE them start using illegal drugs.  Oh, that's right.  THEY CHOSE TO USE DRUGS!  And they knew the risks going into it.  You can't live in our society and not know the risks.  And you know what?  There are programs ALL OVER this country for people that want to get cleaned up and turn their lives around.  Once they get off the drugs, I'll be more than glad to give them a hand up.  But if they get hooked again, that's it.  No more of MY money to those leeches.   
Are you a cook, or a RIFLEMAN?  Find out at Appleseed!

http://www.appleseedinfo.org

"For some many people, attempting to process a logical line of thought brings up the blue screen of death." -Blakenzy

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2008, 03:49:24 PM »
Quote
So if you have kids, you are automatically not able to work hard and save?
Who said that?

Quote
Oh, and people in debt?  Well, between cars, student loans, and some medical bills, my wife and I were about $60,000 in debt.  We're paying it off, as quickly as we can.
Are you a day laborer? Living in a homeless shelter?

You seem to have missed where I was referring directly to homeboy's experience.

Quote
And the drug addicts?  I challenge you to find me ONE PERCENT that had someone FORCE them to take drugs in the first place.
See above: irrelevant. Drug addicts are drug addicts. You can either talk about solutions to the problem, or continue letting them steal your TV for crack money. Your choice, buck-o.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2008, 03:50:10 PM »
Quote
You give up, go on permanent welfare, and blame everyone else for your problems.  Obviously.
Have I mentioned welfare? State intervention at all?

Have I suggested that anyone "blame everyone else"?

Can you quote me?

Be less lazy.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,215
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2008, 04:24:28 PM »
Quote
Does that happen in the oil industry (it most certainly does). What happens then?

Dishwasher, ditch digger, shoe salesman. McDonald's...... Until something better comes along.


Quote
As should be obvious, I'm uninterested in anecdotes - for every success there's a failure, and on the whole individual cases tell us nothing.

The only thing that's obvious is your thesis that people should just give up, because society gave them a bum hand and it's society's fault. Of course there's successes and failures. That's life. It seems you're uninterested in hearing that some people actually succeed, even after stuff has gone wrong for them.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2008, 04:39:55 PM »
Quote
Dishwasher, ditch digger, shoe salesman. McDonald's...... Until something better comes along.
Which of those pays a "living wage" - as referred to initially?

Quote
It seems you're uninterested in hearing that some people actually succeed, even after stuff has gone wrong for them.
But nothing has "gone wrong for [him]" - which is precisely the fault I'm finding with treating his case as representative of anything but a single incident with little or no relevance outside of itself.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2008, 05:03:48 PM »
Nothing has "gone wrong" with the vast majority of people living in poverty.  Nothing other than their own poor choices, anyway.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46,215
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2008, 05:07:10 PM »
Wooderson, I said until something better comes along not 20 years to retirement.

You need to reread what Fjolnirsson wrote -- things didn't exactly "go right" for him, but he pulled himself up.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2008, 08:00:41 PM »
Quote
Nothing has "gone wrong" with the vast majority of people living in poverty.
So it's a choice? All people living in poverty - particularly children (15-20% of whom live under the poverty line - much higher percentages for minority children, but we know that it's the white man who suffers in our society) are simply lazy?

Quote
Nothing other than their own poor choices, anyway.
Which may be, to some extent, true. At the danger of beating my head against a brick wall: Now what you gonna do about it? Prohibit people from making choices? Punish people - including their dependents - for bad choices? Do you think purely punitive measures are the most socially responsible policy (take that in terms of 'social justice' or pure 'I don't want crackheads roaming the streets' pragmatism)?

And if not - then why the hell do their choices matter? They've been made, there is no going back.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

wooderson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,399
Re: Can you build a life from $25?
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2008, 08:05:59 PM »
Quote
Wooderson, I said until something better comes along not 20 years to retirement.
So what happens in the meantime? What if Mickey D's isn't hiring?

How are you supposed to meet the self-sufficiency standard of $5k, a truck and an apartment on $8 an hour?

Quote
You need to reread what Fjolnirsson wrote -- things didn't exactly "go right" for him, but he pulled himself up.
Since I'm working on my rotisserie baseball leagues and teams lately, this one seems appropriate: "small sample size." Fjolnirsson, like the kid in the example, is an isolated case. Now, you show me - empirically - how their situations mirror those of individuals mired in poverty or what lessons can be learned and applied, and maybe it's worth talking about.

You still haven't adequately explained what happens if you don't live near an 'oil patch' to get work. I don't - and assuming I'm poor to start with, I have no transportation to an area where I could work in oil. And I don't have a place to stay once I'm there. Can you think of any jobs paying a "living wage" (to reach back to that key phrase I replied to so many posts back) that routinely hire the homeless?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."