Can you build a life from $25?

[grislyatoms]

Fjolnirsson, like the kid in the example, is an isolated case.

Got some numbers to back up that statement? I believe it false.

I had circumstances much similar to Fjolnirsson, and have a circle of friends who have all realized success after coming through some pretty gnarly situations.

I had a chance in the early 90's to go on permanent disability due to a back injury. Pbbbbththt. I just have to look at my neighbor next door to see how that would have turned out. No job, no life, just collect the check and suck up clean air. I worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time to get myself an Associate's Degree.

A guy I went to school with "made it". He is a minority.
He walked to school every morning, 3-4 miles, then walked another 4-5 miles to his job. Walked home, got a couple hours of sleep, then got up and did it all over again. Sometimes, he would nod off in class. Most instructors would show sleepers the door, but all the instructors there knew the situation. They would gently wake him back up and continue with the lecture. For two years he did this. He wasn't the brightest guy, but he was determined. (When he walked up in his gown to receive his degree, he got a standing ovation from the entire school. My eyes are watering a bit at the thought.)

Last I heard, he was an electronics tech at Anheuser-Busch in St. Louis.

I will never, ever believe these are "isolated cases".

[Ben]

Wooderson, small sample size indeed. I haven't seen your sample set. Nine out of ten people here disagree with your thesis -- doesn't that make you a small sample set? You keep saying individual stories don't count. This entire discussion is based on what individuals do or don't do. You keep saying everyone else's arguments and stories don't count because none of them show the failure you want to prove. If stories of people failing and needing Big Brother or whoever are what you're looking for, I suggest alt.quitter, alt.loser, alt.whiner, and Democratic Underground.

No one here has argued against help for those who TRULY need it. We're talking about able bodied people who would rather take a fulltime handout  than stand on their own.

And as I said before -- the oil fields are one example that I used. Now you've latched onto it with Super glue. If you don't live near your work, you take a bus or walk or ride a bike. Nobody lives in an oil field. You go to a yard in town and take company trucks, boats and helos to where you're going. There. Oil field transportation adequately explained.

As to a "living wage" you might just as well use the word roggledark. Living wage is a moving target definition with all kinds of meanings depending on who is using it.

As to hitting your head against a wall -- now you know how the rest of us feel.

I'll let others continue the debate, because trying to keep up with your allusionary arguments that dance around like Muhammad Ali  is getting tiresome.

Or maybe I could just end my activity in this thread using the Wooderson debate methodology:I'm right, you're wrong, case closed.

[ilbob]

Nothing has "gone wrong" with the vast majority of people living in poverty.

So it's a choice? All people living in poverty - particularly children (15-20% of whom live under the poverty line - much higher percentages for minority children, but we know that it's the white man who suffers in our society) are simply lazy?

Nothing other than their own poor choices, anyway.

Which may be, to some extent, true. At the danger of beating my head against a brick wall: Now what you gonna do about it? Prohibit people from making choices? Punish people - including their dependents - for bad choices? Do you think purely punitive measures are the most socially responsible policy (take that in terms of 'social justice' or pure 'I don't want crackheads roaming the streets' pragmatism)?

And if not - then why the hell do their choices matter? They've been made, there is no going back.

Most people are in poverty because of the bad choices made by someone, made worse by government subsidizing those bad choices. More of the same won't solve anything.

The plain fact is that no one in poverty is required to stay there. There are government funded programs that just about everyone who is poor qualifies for that could help them get out of the mess they are in. But they have to actually get up off the butt and contribute to improving their own situation. No one else, including any level of government, can do that for them.

As for a living wage, that is another one of those fine sounding phrases that is meaningless in real life. Most single people can indeed live off an $8 an hour job. Its not as pleasant as you might want but it can be done. And there is nothing that prevents someone who has an $8 an hour job from taking on a PT job. Lots of people have done that to get out of a bad situation. In fact, most middle class people do not work a flat 40 hour a week job. most of us work more than that, and it has generally been that way for a long while.

I will grant you that making a living on $8 an hour is going to be somewhat of an issue if you live in a rural area, as it is going to be difficult to keep a car at that pay level. But in an urban environment usually there is heavily subsidized public transportation available.

In many areas there are food banks that will feed low income people, or you may qualify for food stamps. Housing assistance is often available to low income people, especially those with children, and often it is a whole lot nicer than what I lived in while going to school.

There are programs to pay low income people to attend school, learn a trade, etc. there are even programs that pay employers to hire people they don't really need just so the unemployed can get valuable experience getting up every day and getting to work on time.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

How are you supposed to meet the self-sufficiency standard of $5k, a truck and an apartment on $8 an hour?

I lived on less than $20k a year, for 7 years, while I was in school.  Deduct the $6k or $8k a year I was spending on tuition and books and whatnot, and that leaves maybe $10k or $12k leftover for living expenses. 

A man working full time for $8/hr would have more to live on than I did.

Don't tell me that $8 an hour isn't a "living wage" (whatever the hell that means).  It's enough to get by on.  I did it for years. 

Far more people than you realize have been dirt poor at one time or another and raised themselves out of it.  We can't all be anecdotes.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Nothing other than their own poor choices, anyway.

Which may be, to some extent, true. At the danger of beating my head against a brick wall: Now what you gonna do about it?

What am I going to do about their poor choices inducing their poverty?

Are you kidding?!

I'm not going to to a damn thing about it.  Nor should I.  It isn't my job to fix their poverty.  That's their job!!!

Get this through your thick skull: people have to help themselves.  They do not get to wait around for outsiders to come in and save them from their own situations.

They need to quit making excuses, and you need to quit making excuses for them.  This senseless belief that they can't do anything on their own is the prime reason they never get anywhere in life.

If you really do want to help these people, you need to quit telling them they can't help themselves.  They can help themselves.  They should help themselves.  In fact that's the only thing that will ever truly help them.

...the most socially responsible policy...

Where's that barf smiley when you need it?

[MillCreek]

This is a very interesting thread, and it has made me think quite a lot.   I am a white male in my late 40's.  I grew up in an intact middle class home, and by the time I came along, Dad was well-established in his career as an engineer at Boeing, where he worked for forty years.  I moved out when I was 18, and worked my way through the UW working scut jobs in a hospital to pay for all my tuition, books and living expenses.  I did not take a dime from my parents, no scholarships (I was a National Merit Scholar), no grants and no loans.  I graduated on time and with no debt with a bachelors and a masters in a physical science.  Later in life, I earned a MBA and paid for all of that out of pocket with no tuition reimbursement from my employer.   I am now well-established in my career earning a six-figure salary with my own home and my two kids are grown, gone and doing well.

Yet as a young adult, I always had the safety net of my family to fall back on, and I have been blessed with good health and have worked steadily my entire adult career.  Yes, I have worked hard and paid my own way, but I have been very lucky.  My life may have turned out very differently otherwise.   It does not unduly distress me to pay taxes and volunteer my time to help the less-fortunate. 

[wooderson]

Got some numbers to back up that statement? I believe it false.

By definition, a single anecdote, or two, or three, are "isolated cases."

Wooderson, small sample size indeed. I haven't seen your sample set.

Sample set of what? What claims have I made - other than the basic assertion that we can draw no wider conclusions from isolated incidents?

Nine out of ten people here disagree with your thesis -- doesn't that make you a small sample set?

What thesis is that?

You keep saying individual stories don't count.

No, I said they aren't particularly valuable. I'm sure they 'count' for the individuals themselves.

You keep saying everyone else's arguments and stories don't count because none of them show the failure you want to prove. If stories of people failing and needing Big Brother or whoever are what you're looking for, I suggest alt.quitter, alt.loser, alt.whiner, and Democratic Underground.

But I've said nothing of failures - I specifically said that individual cases of failure would be no more valuable than individual cases of success.

Nor have I mentioned state intervention or welfare on any level.

Like the other guy, you shouldn't be so lazy as to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is immediately leaping to whatever liberal bogeymen you might fancy.

No one here has argued against help for those who TRULY need it.

And strangely enough, I've not even argued "for help" "for those who TRULY need it."

And as I said before -- the oil fields are one example that I used. Now you've latched onto it with Super glue. If you don't live near your work, you take a bus or walk or ride a bike. Nobody lives in an oil field. You go to a yard in town and take company trucks, boats and helos to where you're going. There. Oil field transportation adequately explained.

I live in a city without mass transit.
How far am I supposed to bike? 10 miles? 20 miles?
What if I need to be presentable at the end of this?

As to a "living wage" you might just as well use the word roggledark. Living wage is a moving target definition with all kinds of meanings depending on who is using it.

I didn't bring it up.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I live in a city without mass transit.
How far am I supposed to bike? 10 miles? 20 miles?
What if I need to be presentable at the end of this?

Why not?  If that's what it takes to lift yourself out of poverty why shouldn't you be expected to do it?  Wouldn't you want to do it if it helps your situation?

I bike to work frequently, 15 miles round trip.  It's actually a lot of fun.  And yes, I look perfectly presentable at work. 

[The Rabbi]

Wooderson,
I dont understand your point about "isolated cases."  The point of the OP is to show that getting out of poverty is a lot easier than most people imagine.  There are harder cases.  There are easier cases.  But if an average person were asked, can someone go from living in a homeless shelter with $25 and his clothes to having an apartment, a vehicle, and money in the bank within a year, that person would answer (as you do) it is impossible.  Only an exceptional person could do it.
That is wrong.

The individual was not exceptional particularly, nor were the others he met who shared both his situation and his desire to get out of it.  Some had even fewer resources than he did and still managed to make it.  The common factor was simply the desire to get out of it rather than sit around and bemoan one's fate.

So the guy was a small sample of people who are determined to do something to improve themselves.  Posters here are also examples of people who were in bad circumstances and worked themselves out of it.

So what is the lesson?  That people overcome their straightened circumstances by first off having the desire and determination to.
Are you going to argue that not everyone has that?  Yup, that's true.  That is exactly the problem.

[wooderson]

I bike to work frequently, 15 miles round trip.  It's actually a lot of fun.  And yes, I look perfectly presentable at work.

How often do you do it during the summer? What's the average temperature? (I ask because it is simply impossible for someone living in the southwest to bike miles at any point from May to September and be presentable for a job dealing with the public.)

How often do you do it during the winter? What's the average temperature?

[Tecumseh]

This article really hit home. 

I have a 20 year old cousin who lived in a shithole neighborhood of Chicago.  His mother passed away about a week ago of cancer and his father is poor and lives in Texas and has nothing to do with him.  He dropped out of high school to get a job and to try and suppport his mother who has been dieing of cancer for the past year or two.  He worked as a laborer, at a White Castle, and other shitty jobs.  His mother was recieving disability but it was enough to pay for an apartment and little more than part of  her medication.  The money he made had to go towards food, medicine, taxis and bus passes to get to Doctor Apointments, and household bills such as a cell phone and electricity. 

He is now living on the streets for a few days as he was evicted and he has nowhere to go.  He was going to stay at a shelter and is trying to get his life together.  He grew up in a gang infested area with little community support.  My mother, his aunt through his father, is going to give him a few hundred dollars to get on his feet.  We have not been very close to him and his family nor are we close with his father, but we are going to try and help him out as he is blood. 

But the arrogance of some people here shocks me.  It is not so easy for everyone.  Yes many on this site are successful but they seem unwilling to look at the big picture.  Not everyone is as blessed to live in a nice home and in a good situation.  My cousin for example was heading down a good path.  He wanted to go to UIC and accounting but his mother was diagnosed with cancer a few years ago and he had to make a real hard choice.  Do I work and help out my mom or do I continue to go to school and watch my mother die quickly and get evicted on the street?  Not something anybody should go through.  Especially at an age where they have to choose between helping their mother or choosing a future. 

If getting out of poverty were so easy why are so many stuck?  This guy had a lot of good factors going for him.  He did not have to worry as he had a safety net to fall back on.  Not to mention that he was white and racism is rampant in hiring practices.  He is also male and has no dependents or diseases?  I am sure he was in good health?  What if he got cancer, or in an accident while working?  And he has no health insrurance?  Do you think that he would be ok then?  Many US citizens are screwed if they do get a sickness such as this. 

But either way, keep thinking that laziness is the only factor in poverty.  Next time someone comes on here asking for a handout, call them a lazy slob and tell them to go get a job.  Its times like this when I ask myself WWJD? I think I know, and he would not call people lazy.  But hey, thats just me.

[wooderson]

I dont understand your point about "isolated cases."  The point of the OP is to show that getting out of poverty is a lot easier than most people imagine.

And that's precisely the issue: how does the case of a white, healthy, independent, educated male with a constant safety net in place show anything about "getting out of poverty." He's not a representative case. He's not even a realistic case. The events of his life hold no greater meaning about poverty or the escape from poverty.

But if an average person were asked, can someone go from living in a homeless shelter with $25 and his clothes to having an apartment, a vehicle, and money in the bank within a year, that person would answer (as you do) it is impossible.  Only an exceptional person could do it.
That is wrong.

He may or may not be an 'exceptional person' - but his is an 'exceptional case' insofar as the particulars of his situation are an exception to the rule.

[wooderson]

And, of course, I remarked in no way on the OP's motivation or anything else - I responded specifically to the rash of "SEE IT'S EASY ANYONE CAN DO IT" comments.

[The Rabbi]

But if an average person were asked, can someone go from living in a homeless shelter with $25 and his clothes to having an apartment, a vehicle, and money in the bank within a year, that person would answer (as you do) it is impossible.  Only an exceptional person could do it.
That is wrong.

He may or may not be an 'exceptional person' - but his is an 'exceptional case' insofar as the particulars of his situation are an exception to the rule.

He is exceptional only in that 1) he wrote a book about it 2) he actually achieved it while plenty of equally able-bodied people are only interested in smokes n beer and their next hand out.
I would argue that the people really not able to do it are the exceptional ones.  The rest are just freeloaders.

[AmbulanceDriver]

I don't think anyone has said it's easy.  At least I know that I haven't.  Just the opposite.  It takes hard work. Discipline. Self-control.  Tecumseh, yeah, that's a really crappy situation that you've described.  But yes.  I think he can pull himself up out of it.  And just like the OP, it's not the people that are getting help that I'm so pissed off at.  It's the people that I see in my job.  That are on the Oregon Health Plan, on food stamps, on six different kinds of welfare.  They don't have any furniture in their (housing voucher provided) apartment.  But they have a blinged-out SUV in front of their place, and they've got spinner rims, and the huge flat panel TV, and the XBOX 360, and the PS3, and the Nintendo Wii...  But their (6) kids are running around barefoot, dirty, trying to dig through our kits as we're checking on mama who's pregnant with child #7.  Oh, and buddy is sitting in the kitchen rolling a joint the size of a cigar.  And that think that they're OWED this lifestyle, and more...  On. My. And. Everyone. Else's. Tax. Dollars.

[wooderson]

He is exceptional only in that 1) he wrote a book about it 2) he actually achieved it while plenty of equally able-bodied people are only interested in smokes n beer and their next hand out.

He wrote a book about it, and he's white, healthy, independent, had zero debt, no mental problems, no addictions, a family safety net, a college degree, etc. etc. etc. We already covered the ways in which he does not resemble the 'face of poverty' (or the working poor, for that matter) in America.

We keep seeing references to people having made 'bad choices' - okay, let's stipulate to that. People in dire straits are often there because of bad life choices. So doesn't that make this case, and the 'ease' with which he accomplished his goal completely irrelevant, since unlike the vast majority of those in his fictionalized situation, he had no 'bad choices' to contend with?

Wouldn't each of our lives be easier, couldn't we all make a great deal more money (no matter what your income now) if we were freed from every bad decision ever made?

[grislyatoms]

I have no problem helping out folks like your cousin, nor do I have a problem helping folks when they have fallen on hard times. It happens. I think the majority of folks on this board would say the same thing.

The folks who make a career out of living on the dole and refusing to work, however, irk me to no end.

[Tecumseh]

How do you differentiate the difference between my cousin, and someone else.  I keep hearing they have SUVs with spinning rims and all that stereotype. 

How does anyone know that they did not win that from some contest?  Or that they did not have it before they hit hard times?  I keep hearing that stereotype but see no evidence other than anecdotal, which on the internet has no validity at all. 

Please provide some sort of sociological study or proof in any manner that people are abusing the system. 

[The Rabbi]

He is exceptional only in that 1) he wrote a book about it 2) he actually achieved it while plenty of equally able-bodied people are only interested in smokes n beer and their next hand out.

He wrote a book about it, and he's white, healthy, independent, had zero debt, no mental problems, no addictions, a family safety net, a college degree, etc. etc. etc. We already covered the ways in which he does not resemble the 'face of poverty' (or the working poor, for that matter) in America.

We keep seeing references to people having made 'bad choices' - okay, let's stipulate to that. People in dire straits are often there because of bad life choices. So doesn't that make this case, and the 'ease' with which he accomplished his goal completely irrelevant, since unlike the vast majority of those in his fictionalized situation, he had no 'bad choices' to contend with?

Wouldn't each of our lives be easier, couldn't we all make a great deal more money (no matter what your income now) if we were freed from every bad decision ever made?

First I dont think being white necessarily helped him.  But I appreciate the race card aspect to your post.
Second, as I mentioned, repeatedly, everyone has assets of one kind or another.  The number of people with none whatsoever is exceedingly small.  I will stipulate the those people have earned their place at the bottom of society.
But the book was written as a response to another book, one I started reading, which made the case that it was impossible for someone, even someone white and college educated, to work themselves out of poverty.  That is clearly not so.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

He is exceptional only in that 1) he wrote a book about it 2) he actually achieved it while plenty of equally able-bodied people are only interested in smokes n beer and their next hand out.

He wrote a book about it, and he's white, healthy, independent, had zero debt, no mental problems, no addictions, a family safety net, a college degree, etc. etc. etc. We already covered the ways in which he does not resemble the 'face of poverty' (or the working poor, for that matter) in America.

We keep seeing references to people having made 'bad choices' - okay, let's stipulate to that. People in dire straits are often there because of bad life choices. So doesn't that make this case, and the 'ease' with which he accomplished his goal completely irrelevant, since unlike the vast majority of those in his fictionalized situation, he had no 'bad choices' to contend with?

Wouldn't each of our lives be easier, couldn't we all make a great deal more money (no matter what your income now) if we were freed from every bad decision ever made?

The past determines how deep your hole is.  It does NOT determine whether you start climbing up or keep digging yourself in deeper.

The point of the story, which you continue to ignore, is that ANYONE can make the same decisions and take the same actions that he did. 

You don't need a college education to live within your means. 

You don't need a middle class upbringing to find a job and be a reliable employee. 

You don't need to be white to work hard. 

You don't need to have a safety net in order to save your money and spend it carefully.

You'll note that he didn't do anything particularly brilliant to fix his poverty.  He just did simple, common sense stuff, and he did it consistently.  You don't need a "privileged" background to do that!

His story matters because it shows that anyone with an able body and a sound mind can improve their circumstances.

[Matthew Carberry]

The "he's not typical" dismissive attitude bugs me.

You name any combination of factors of race, health, drugs, childhood poverty, etc, etc and I bet we can find one individual in that scenario who did the same bootstrap maneuver.

So now what's the excuse?

The point being made is that, in fact, once you start making smart choices you can succeed, no matter where you start.  Any one individual proves that true for all others they resemble.

Anyone else in that situation, with similar handicaps, has no excuse.

I don't mind helping people voluntarily, but they better be putting forth as much effort as anyone else in their situation who made it. 

[wooderson]

The point of the story, which you continue to ignore, is that ANYONE can make the same decisions and take the same actions that he did.

Why do you make that assumption?

If you take the same set of starting points and decisions, and he winds up broke after 12 months  (for whatever reason - injury, bad luck, moving company shut down and didn't pay the last two weeks, etc.): would you then assume that this told the whole story, and that this is the most likely outcome of his starting situation, that bootstrapping is impossible?

Would you?

[wooderson]

First I dont think being white necessarily helped him.  But I appreciate the race card aspect to your post.

Has nothing to do with the 'race card.'

We know, statistically, that white Americans have higher incomes than black, Hispanic, American Indian, etc. Americans.
We know, statistically, that males have higher incomes than females.
We know, statistically, that college graduates have higher incomes than non-college graduates.
We know, logically, that it's cheaper to provide for one person than two. Or three.
etc. etc. etc.

For each and every category he can placed within, homeboy is on the 'winning side.'

Second, as I mentioned, repeatedly, everyone has assets of one kind or another.  The number of people with none whatsoever is exceedingly small.

I haven't referred to this because it's a meaningless platititude. "We all have toolboxes!"

But the book was written as a response to another book, one I started reading, which made the case that it was impossible for someone, even someone white and college educated, to work themselves out of poverty.  That is clearly not so.

That was not the point of Ehrenreich's book, actually. Nickel and Dimed is a series of portraits of the world of low-paying/'menial' labor.

[wooderson]

You name any combination of factors of race, health, drugs, childhood poverty, etc, etc and I bet we can find one individual in that scenario who did the same bootstrap maneuver.

And we can find one individual who remained in poverty.

What does either outcome mean?

[K Frame]

"What does either outcome mean?"

That life can be tough, and you're not guaranteed of a damned thing.

You can do all the wrong things and come out ahead, you can do all of the right things and land in a ditch, or you can jumble together any combination of and come up with just about any outcome imaginable.

In other words, life's a bitch.