Drawbacks of running on sidewalks and raison d'être of school zones

[cordex]

Now I know, and knowing is half the battle.

[roo_ster]

Street vs Sidewalks
1. As has been mentioned, blacktop is much easier on the runner than concrete.
2. Most of my running has been done in the wee hours of the morning, before sunrise.  Even with street lights, many of the surface irregularities common on sidewalks are difficult to discern before you end up sprawled out & bleeding. 
3. Whenever I run in the dark, at the very least I will don a white t-shirt. 
4. Whenever I ride my bike in the dark, I am a regular carnival of reflectors & blinking lights.

School Zones
Live diagonally across the street from a school.  Lots of kids walk to school, so there are lots of the buggers about at start/let out times.  Also, lots of evening functions, so the kiddos can be seen leaving up until evening time.  There is a 4-way stop intersection, but some folks manage to miss the entire school, the stop signs, the signs with flashy lights, and the reflective graphics affixed to the street.  Just blow on through if no kids are in the cross walk or skid to a stop. 

[mtnbkr]

4. Whenever I ride my bike in the dark, I am a regular carnival of reflectors & blinking lights.

Thread veer related to biking and blinky lights...

I read an article recently, that I can't find at the moment, that indicated blinky lights actually work against the cyclist by drawing motorists TO them.  I haven't started using my tail lights on steady mode, but that's mainly because I haven't done much night cycling recently.

Chris

[cordex]

I read an article recently, that I can't find at the moment, that indicated blinky lights actually work against the cyclist by drawing motorists TO them.  I haven't started using my tail lights on steady mode, but that's mainly because I haven't done much night cycling recently.

That reminds me of a quote from Neal Stephenson's Zodiac.  The main character discusses his personal theory of safely riding a bike at night: dress in all black with no reflectors, then pretend there is a million dollar award to the first car to run you down.

[roo_ster]

Thread veer related to biking and blinky lights...

I read an article recently, that I can't find at the moment, that indicated blinky lights actually work against the cyclist by drawing motorists TO them.  I haven't started using my tail lights on steady mode, but that's mainly because I haven't done much night cycling recently.

Chris

OK, may turn them to constant on.  Or replace them with frickin' laser beams.  No middle-way, ill-tempered sea bass for me, no sirree!

[zahc]

Thread veer related to biking and blinky lights...

I read an article recently, that I can't find at the moment, that indicated blinky lights actually work against the cyclist by drawing motorists TO them.  I haven't started using my tail lights on steady mode, but that's mainly because I haven't done much night cycling recently.

Chris

It stands to reason. When i used to ride dirt bikes I learned that the surest way to hit a big rock or tree was to look at it. The secret to not hitting it is to look where you want to go.

[Balog]

Concrete is the worst possible surface to run on. Sidewalks are the worst type of concrete to run on. I walk (not run) to the bus every work day, and I do it in the road not the sidewalk. But that's in a sleepy residential neighborhood. The most annoying part for me is the sloped driveways. 10 feet of flat and level, 10 feet of one leg landing 3 inches lower than the other. Ridiculous.

[Jamisjockey]

Thread veer related to biking and blinky lights...

I read an article recently, that I can't find at the moment, that indicated blinky lights actually work against the cyclist by drawing motorists TO them.  I haven't started using my tail lights on steady mode, but that's mainly because I haven't done much night cycling recently.

Chris

I ever tell you about almost hitting a guy on a huffy/pacific/whatever on my morning commute in Utah?

[dm1333]

Thread veer related to biking and blinky lights...

I read an article recently, that I can't find at the moment, that indicated blinky lights actually work against the cyclist by drawing motorists TO them.  I haven't started using my tail lights on steady mode, but that's mainly because I haven't done much night cycling recently.

Chris

I'd be interested in reading that since I commute by bike and ride at night sometimes.  The bike I normally commute on has two blinkys and lots of reflective tape, I've got a third blinky on my Camelback and more tape on my helmet, along with a reflective jacket. 

[SteveS]

I don't wear shoes, and I don't believe in any of the 'running ground should have give' theories. 

Barefoot?  Or some kind of "minimalist" shoe?

[Fly320s]

How can asphalt be softer than concrete for runners? Cars, which have a much higher weight per square inch than runners, aren't leaving depressions in the asphalt.  Nor are cyclists.

[41magsnub]

RE: Running on concrete vs asphalt
Time for the super geek to come out of me.

Now get this ... there are infinite different types of concrete. It has to do with the mixture with determines the strength (measured in pounds per square inch or psi). There are many types of concrete because of the different applications, in buildings, as sidewalks, used in planters or parking lot bumpers, etc. Asphalt is different in that is is only used for roads, so it's basically residential road, commercial road (high use) or highway. The asphalt on maple drive can be softer than on main street, and main street can be softer than the interstate. Asphalt (400-600 psi) is "softer" than concrete (typically 3000 psi) meaning that it takes compression and then expands back to its original state. Concrete sidewalks and paths are the "softest" concrete to run on, about 3000 or 4000 psi.

Worst concrete substance to run on: Airstrip, typically 8000 - 10000 psi.

This message brought to you by Bill Nye the Science guy.

From...    http://forums.runnersworld.com/forums/runner-communities/beginners/running-concrete-vs-asphalt

[cordex]

How can asphalt be softer than concrete for runners? Cars, which have a much higher weight per square inch than runners, aren't leaving depressions in the asphalt.  Nor are cyclists.

I still doubt this too, but everyone seems to think it is true.  The human body is putting ... what ... maybe 10-20PSI max on a given location when running?

[gunsmith]

in Reno, lots of kids walking to school.
They are pretty dumb.
I have to drive 10 mph in the 25mph school zone to avoid them.

Runners? looks like the answers have been provided.

[Balog]

I still doubt this too, but everyone seems to think it is true.  The human body is putting ... what ... maybe 10-20PSI max on a given location when running?

Here's a crazy idea. Try running on asphalt, then try running on concrete.

[AZRedhawk44]

Here's a crazy idea. Try running on asphalt, then try running on concrete.

False experiment.

To a non-runner, running is gonna hurt no matter what.

He'd have to get in shape to the point where repeated stress impact of 3+ mile runs aren't a problem in the first place.  Then spend a week running every other day on asphalt-only surfaces, and then a week running every other day on concrete-only surfaces.

[Balog]

Dude, it's a person asking question on an internet forum for his own edification, not an experiement to be published in a peer reviewed journal. I think we can skimp on the rigor just this once. 

[AZRedhawk44]

Dude, it's a person asking question on an internet forum for his own edification, not an experiement to be published in a peer reviewed journal. I think we can skimp on the rigor just this once. 

Never skimp on the rigor.   

[Fly320s]

Never skimp on the rigor.   

Exactly. But the rigor can be morticed.

The running test would have to be a double blind study.

[Regolith]

Exactly. But the rigor can be morticed.

The running test would have to be a double blind study.

But how can they run if they can't see where they're going? 

 

[RoadKingLarry]

So how do you runners feel about running on 100+ year old brick streets? my town still has some of that.

[BlueStarLizzard]

How can asphalt be softer than concrete for runners? Cars, which have a much higher weight per square inch than runners, aren't leaving depressions in the asphalt.  Nor are cyclists.

Uhhh... Asphalt has tar. Concrete is dried out hard stuff. The tar makes it a more flexible substance, which can withstand more impact.

Ever been on fresh laid asphalt? When I was a kid, they repaved part of the parking lot of a local school one summer. We had fun. It's bouncy.

[brimic]

I don't wear shoes, and I don't believe in any of the 'running ground should have give' theories.

Yes.
In a different lifetime and 100 lbs ago I ran long distance events in Track. (Mile, 2mile)
The tracks we ran on were asphalt or rubber, or we ran on country roads (not sidewalks). Shoes typically had to be fit the mechanics of your feet and had to be replaced often.
Running in running shoes with their squishiness allows you to run with a longer (and unnatural) stride that you can't maintain barefoot or with 'racing flats'. This longer stride is a lot harder on the knees and can lead to all kinds of problems on harder surfaces.
Counterintuitively, wearing 'minimal' shoes or barefoot, your body will run at its correct stride and your feet will roll correctly which will protect your joints- though you won't be able to run as fast for a sustained distance.*

*sprinters wear thin flat soled shoes.

[never_retreat]

I'm a firm believer that blink lights makes the driver toward you or confuses them.
About 10 years ago I almost hit a stopped state trooper in the left lane of rt 78. I was doing full speed (65-70) It was late (10pm)and dark. I thought he was on the right shoulder just prior so I actually moved to the left lane from the middle. Thank god no one took over that space that I had vacated in the middle lane. I swerved and missed that cruiser by inches. Full speed no breaks.

[Cliffh]

Just theorizing here re: the school zones:

  The school zone guides are set by the school district or state.  In order to make it easier for the schools & less confusing for the rabble, all schools in the district/state are treated the same regardless of location.  Can't have a "school zone" for one school and not for another.  Can you imagine the reaction of the parents around the school that didn't have the "school zone"?  They'd be screaming about how the school didn't care about their kids - or they'd have the zone just like the other one!

  And, as said earlier, it's a money maker.