Author Topic: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?  (Read 16089 times)

richyoung

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2007, 09:53:29 AM »
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Gold coins 'abundant' in Vietnam rivers
Wednesday 17th of January, 2007
Vietnamese fishermen are now pulling out large numbers of antique golden coins from rivers in the country, which can be sold on to collectors for high prices.

The coins, which are being found in rivers in Hue, Vietnam, date from various historical periods, including the rare Nguyen dynasty.

At this time, Chinese and Vietnamese coins were used together, while fisherman have also found coins marked with Chinese dynasties such as the Khai Nguyen, Tong Nguyen and Vinh Lac currencies, reports VietnamNet.  And the coins are proving to be a healthy bonus for the local fishermen picking them up in their nets. Coin salesmen base their prices on its level, which is based on it age and quality.

Increasing numbers of high-level coins are being found in the Hue area, meaning coin salesmen from as far away as Hanoi, Ho Chi Min City, China and Japan are heading to Hue to hand over modern money for old.

...seem to have held their value pretty good....
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2007, 12:03:34 PM »
And here goes another perfectly good discussion down the tubes...



richyoung

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2007, 12:14:44 PM »
Why you hatin' on my bling, dog? 

Not hatin', playa,...just representin', s'all....
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Art Eatman

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2007, 01:05:50 PM »
Sorry, HTG, but I just don't see how people of the future will be different from people of the past:  When times get wild, intrinsic value items have aways become highly desirable.  Always.  I don't see why anybody would suddenly change away from valuing such things as gold or diamonds.

What it is, is, I need to hear some reason for a change in human nature...

Art
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2007, 02:33:11 PM »
Sorry, HTG, but I just don't see how people of the future will be different from people of the past:  When times get wild, intrinsic value items have aways become highly desirable.  Always.  I don't see why anybody would suddenly change away from valuing such things as gold or diamonds.

What it is, is, I need to hear some reason for a change in human nature...

Art
When times get wild, gold is just as likely to go way down as it is to go way up.  Check out this chart:



The value of gold tanked during the Napoleonic wars.  If that wasn't a wild time for old Europe, I don't know what was.

Gold also tanked during and after WWI.  Those wild times like those would have been a wretched period for anyone relying upon a stockpile of gold.

Gold didn't tank during WWII, but it did decline steadily for years, indicating a lack of correlation between wild times and the desirability of gold. 

Check out this next chart:  (hmm, I can't seem to insert it inline in the text, so it's posted as an attachment)

In the Great Depression gold prices conspicuously failed to rise as a result of the stock market crash, further disproving the correlation between wild times and the desirability for gold.

Gold spiked in '33, which would appear to benefit those who had taken the precaution of building a "wild times" next egg in gold.  But nope, in the deepest part of the Great Depression, when you would need that gold the most, Roosevelt criminalized the private ownership of gold.  Surprise!  That pile of gold were depending upon to get you through tough times just turned into contraband.  It went from asset to liability at the stroke of a pen.

Anyways, the point is that in "wild times" gold has proven to be risky and dangerous as often as it's proven to be safe and sound.

Buy gold because you like shiny baubles.  Buy it for its collector's value.  Buy it as a speculator's investment.  But don't kid yourself about it being a financial cure-all in bad times.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2007, 03:14:40 PM »
Ultimately, everything depends on the size of the cataclysm. Something like a rapid depreciation of paper currency due to hyperinflation a la Germany circa 1920s, which however does not result in a general social collapse and redefinition of the social contract, will likely preserve the value of precious metals. In this case, I agree having some gold stashed will be a better investment than paper instruments, and in some cases, even better than real estate.

However, a major cataclysm, e.g. pandemic, nuclear war, asteroid, etc. that result in collapse of federal and local government, massive casualties, etc. will certainly plunge the survivors in a barter economy for quite some time. An eventual recovery will bring about the need for currency as production and population increase, while rudimentary government institutions are reestablished. Still, I do not think the recovery will be fast enough to make it worthwhile to stockpile gold instead of commodities. And yes, it is "either, or" because whatever you invest in gold you will not spend on tools, provisions, and medicines.

Finally, it is a matter of personal choice and stakes, as well as available resources. If you are a millionaire, certainly it makes sense to hedge one's bets and put something in gold etc. But, your average survival-conscious guy will be likely better served by investing his limited resources in the basics.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2007, 03:22:16 PM »
There's something else I wanted to mention.

Go back to that 600 gold price chart.  Notice the precipitous drop in gold prices that occurred beginning in the mid 1550's.  Gold suffered a 5- to 10-fold loss in value in a matter of decades.  It hasn't managed to recover in the 500 years since.

It shouldn't take a history genius to identify what geopolitical event caused this precipitous drop in gold prices.

Cataclysmic geopolitical events like the discovery of America don't occur often, but they can happen.  What's to say that another such event won't happen in our lifetimes?  It's a remote possibility, but it is possible that something might happen to make gold suffer another 10-fold drop in value. 

Such are the risks you take when you chose to speculate on commodities.

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2007, 03:35:47 PM »
It was hardly the discovery of America that caused the drop.  It was the boatloads of gold and silver that came over from South America (causing a big inflation in Europe btw).
I would say that gold prices will decline during a crisis (like WW1) because so many people who have gold are trying to sell it.  But they have it.  And they can get money for it.  And it remains a reliable, portable, concealable store of wealth that retains desirability across cultures (for the most part) and generations.  And I dont know any other commodity that has those characteristics.
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2007, 03:50:02 PM »
And it remains a reliable, portable, concealable store of wealth that retains desirability across cultures (for the most part) and generations.  And I dont know any other commodity that has those characteristics.

I do.

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CAnnoneer

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2007, 04:03:33 PM »
Good one, carebear. Hehehe.

Apart from prostitution, special skills and knowledge come to mind. In a TEOTWAWKI, a decent blacksmith for example will be worth "his weight in gold". Hehehe.

Art Eatman

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2007, 06:15:04 PM »
When you're talking about using gold as money in a post-apocalyptic situation, past values are irrelevant.  That would become a strictly here-and-now deal.

When you're looking at daily doings in the here-and-now of the U.S. of A. of today, gold is merely a commodity.  Whether you consider it as having a future value separate from the normal buy-low/sell-high is another matter...

As far as a gold standard, world wide, somebody did a guesstimate of known above-ground gold tonnage and outstanding currency of all countries.  The paper could be backed by gold at around $12,000 an ounce, or some such number. Smiley

Art
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2007, 08:20:57 PM »
Whores are concealable?  Pistols and knives, more like. 
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2007, 08:27:12 PM »
They're portable and can help defend themselves.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2007, 08:28:02 PM »
You like 'em feisty, eh? 
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2007, 08:31:31 PM »
Actually, yes.

But assuming they are in the business voluntarily, I wouldn't sign on to be the only one willing to fight.
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HankB

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2007, 03:41:55 AM »
It was hardly the discovery of America that caused the drop.  It was the boatloads of gold and silver that came over from South America (causing a big inflation in Europe btw).
Are you implying that fleets of galleons loaded with tons of treasure regularly arriving in Europe had some effect on the precious metal supply, affecting its value?
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richyoung

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2007, 04:20:51 AM »
It was hardly the discovery of America that caused the drop.  It was the boatloads of gold and silver that came over from South America (causing a big inflation in Europe btw).
Are you implying that fleets of galleons loaded with tons of treasure regularly arriving in Europe had some effect on the precious metal supply, affecting its value?

...and unless they open Antarctica to developement AND it has huge gold and silver deposits, that scenario is unlikely to ever happen again...
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The Rabbi

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2007, 04:27:12 AM »
It was hardly the discovery of America that caused the drop.  It was the boatloads of gold and silver that came over from South America (causing a big inflation in Europe btw).
Are you implying that fleets of galleons loaded with tons of treasure regularly arriving in Europe had some effect on the precious metal supply, affecting its value?

Call me rash, I don't care.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2007, 06:22:08 AM »
It was hardly the discovery of America that caused the drop.  It was the boatloads of gold and silver that came over from South America (causing a big inflation in Europe btw).
Are you implying that fleets of galleons loaded with tons of treasure regularly arriving in Europe had some effect on the precious metal supply, affecting its value?

...and unless they open Antarctica to developement AND it has huge gold and silver deposits, that scenario is unlikely to ever happen again...
Antarctica is virtually unexplored.  So is the sea floor.  That amounts to something like 3/4 of our planet being complete unknowns.  As our existing stores of crude become depleted we'll no doubt begin exploring some of that uncharted territory.  There's a very real possibility that the gold deposits we currently know of amount to a fraction of the gold deposits we might find in the coming decades.

Nuclear scientists have demonstrated that alchemy is possible afterall.

I wouldn't put it past a guy like Richard Branson to make off-planet mining a reality sometime in the next century.

There's no guarantee that any of this will happen.  But there's no guarantee that any of it won't happen.  There's no guarantee that some other, unforeseen, unpredictable geopolitical shift might turn the world upside down again.

If you all wanna bet that your gold will always be valuable no matter what, then go for it.  I care not.  I just want you to know that gold hasn't always been valuable.  There are long term factors that could cause your gold stocks to lose most of their value.  There are short term factors that could cause your gold to lose most of its value.  There are factors that could make your gold entirely worthless, if not a liability. 

Looking at the history of gold through rose-tinted glasses is intellectually dishonest.  Projecting that rose-colored history into the future is folly.

Art Eatman

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2007, 06:53:55 AM »
I guess it was back in my colleg daze that I read about the amount of gold in a cubic mile of seawater.  It's an incredible amount; somewhere toward tons, not ounces.  But costly.  Later on, I learned of a DuPont process to extract magnesium from seawater; it's done at a plant near Freeport, Texas.  (Or was.)   "Hmmm..." I sez to meself...

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2007, 09:15:02 AM »
Well that's the problem, innit.  You figure out the seawater process and the minute commodity buyers get wind of it, the bottom drops out of the market.  Even if you sneak it onto the market bit by bit, eventually the new volume will show up in trading.

And of course there's the little matter of dodging the DeBeer's hit squads...
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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2007, 09:38:16 AM »

There's no guarantee that any of this will happen.  But there's no guarantee that any of it won't happen.  There's no guarantee that some other, unforeseen, unpredictable geopolitical shift might turn the world upside down again.

If you all wanna bet that your gold will always be valuable no matter what, then go for it.  I care not.  I just want you to know that gold hasn't always been valuable.  There are long term factors that could cause your gold stocks to lose most of their value.  There are short term factors that could cause your gold to lose most of its value.  There are factors that could make your gold entirely worthless, if not a liability. 


Hm, so your point is a) it is possible we will find gold on a scale beyond that of the South American discovery "elsewhere" and this will destroy the market for gold.  B) Gold hasnt always been valuable.
As to A) it reminds me of the people on gun boards who tote multiple magazines and multiple guns, even though there is no record of a private citizen ever needing all of that.  The reasoning is "well, you never know."  It is hard to argue with that logic.  But we enter into the realm of what is probably vs what is possible.  And your positing of massive gold finds enter into the fantastic more than anything else.
Second, you would be hard-pressed to find too many places and cultures where gold is not valued.
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richyoung

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2007, 09:45:56 AM »
It was hardly the discovery of America that caused the drop.  It was the boatloads of gold and silver that came over from South America (causing a big inflation in Europe btw).
Are you implying that fleets of galleons loaded with tons of treasure regularly arriving in Europe had some effect on the precious metal supply, affecting its value?

...and unless they open Antarctica to developement AND it has huge gold and silver deposits, that scenario is unlikely to ever happen again...
Antarctica is virtually unexplored. 

...and off-limits to exploitation, enforced at American taxpayer expense by the UN and the American military.  You and I even pay to TANK the sewwage from scientists and such in Antartica to Argentina for processing.  No way they are going to alow mineral exploration and excavation in our, or our children's lifetimes.  Probably much longer.

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So is the sea floor.

With the one exception of manganese, poray tell what metallic mineral's we have EVER mined in signifigant quantities from deep ocean depths?  I think I hear crickets chirping...

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 That amounts to something like 3/4 of our planet being complete unknowns.


For the very good reasons that they can only be reached through great expense, or mahinery, and in many cases both.

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As our existing stores of crude become depleted we'll no doubt begin exploring some of that uncharted territory.


Can you name ANY signifigant non-petroleum mineral find that was the result of the literally HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of petroleum exploration wells we've drilled?  I think that number is very close to ZERO.

 
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There's a very real possibility that the gold deposits we currently know of amount to a fraction of the gold deposits we might find in the coming decades.

You have some secret knowledge of vast areas like North and South America that are currently unknown and unexplored?  Because thats what it would take...

Quote
Nuclear scientists have demonstrated that alchemy is possible afterall.

...and yet NOBODY is transmuting substances on a comercial basis - for the simple reason that the COST is orders of magnitutde greater than the value of the yielded substance.  Nor is that likely to change at any point in the near future.

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I wouldn't put it past a guy like Richard Branson to make off-planet mining a reality sometime in the next century.

Do you have a CLUE what it costs to get a kilogram just to low earth orbit, much less go off-planit and drag something back?  NASA doesn;t even HAVE retrieved MARS rocks yet, and only a few hundred pounds of moon rock have come back, and at extravagent expense.

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There's no guarantee that any of this will happen.  But there's no guarantee that any of it won't happen.  There's no guarantee that some other, unforeseen, unpredictable geopolitical shift might turn the world upside down again.

History tends to repeat itself.  Throughout history, precious minerals have been just that - PRECIOUS.  Even modern customs like wedding rings and other forms of jewelry, have their origins in the desire to ensure having concentrated portable wealth to hand, for ransom and other unforseen purposes.  Thats why jewelry is made out of rare stones and...gold and silver.

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If you all wanna bet that your gold will always be valuable no matter what, then go for it.  I care not.
 

If you want to believe your pretty peices of unbacked paper will always be valuable no matter what, ditto.  Suffice to say, I can provide NUMEROUS examples of fiat currency going kaput.

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I just want you to know that gold hasn't always been valuable.

Can you name ANY time or place where it was VALUELESS, in anything OTHER than an aboriginal, stone-age society?  If we fall THAT far back on the societal evolutionary ladder, you might then have a point....

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 There are long term factors that could cause your gold stocks to lose most of their value.  There are short term factors that could cause your gold to lose most of its value.  There are factors that could make your gold entirely worthless, if not a liability.  


There are long and short term factors that could cause your digital blips of stored wealth, and the government counterfeit currency its based on, to loose ALL of their value.  Fancy carting a wheelbarrow full of Federal Reserve notes to the storre to buy a loaf of bread?  There are people alive today that have had that experience with a fiat currency.

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Looking at the history of gold through rose-tinted glasses is intellectually dishonest.  Projecting that rose-colored history into the future is folly.

Gold has NEVER become worthless or a liability in a modern society.  Methinks tis THOU with a disregard for history.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2007, 10:11:26 AM »

There's no guarantee that any of this will happen.  But there's no guarantee that any of it won't happen.  There's no guarantee that some other, unforeseen, unpredictable geopolitical shift might turn the world upside down again.

If you all wanna bet that your gold will always be valuable no matter what, then go for it.  I care not.  I just want you to know that gold hasn't always been valuable.  There are long term factors that could cause your gold stocks to lose most of their value.  There are short term factors that could cause your gold to lose most of its value.  There are factors that could make your gold entirely worthless, if not a liability. 


Hm, so your point is a) it is possible we will find gold on a scale beyond that of the South American discovery "elsewhere" and this will destroy the market for gold.  B) Gold hasnt always been valuable.
As to A) it reminds me of the people on gun boards who tote multiple magazines and multiple guns, even though there is no record of a private citizen ever needing all of that.  The reasoning is "well, you never know."  It is hard to argue with that logic.  But we enter into the realm of what is probably vs what is possible.  And your positing of massive gold finds enter into the fantastic more than anything else.
Second, you would be hard-pressed to find too many places and cultures where gold is not valued.
My point is that any purchase of gold bullion is speculation.  Maybe it'll go up.  Maybe it won't.  It's had some pretty wild runs in both directions.  I'm not trying to say that gold is worthless.  I'm just trying to inject some reality in amongst the folks who think that gold is never anything except highly valuable.

Sure, gold will always have some value.  But in a time of crisis will it have anywhere near the value it has right now?  Will it have enough value to benefit you?  Is diverting valuable money away from other areas and into gold the best thing you can do right now to secure your future?  Maybe, maybe not.  Again, we're down to wild speculation.  If speculation is your thing, then go for it.

Personally, I prefer to stake my future on sound reasoning and reliability, not luck and speculation.  Times of crisis are when I want reliability most, yet those are the times when gold usually proves to be the most volatile.  No thanks, personally.

We've been around and around on this one, and I doubt anything new is going to come up.  I'm done with this thread.  Enjoy it without me.

ilbob

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Re: Anyone here buys precious metal bullion?
« Reply #74 on: January 21, 2007, 06:46:02 AM »
It was true at the time.  It is true today.  If you average out probably any 20 year period it will be true.
Is there an exact correlation?  No.  But in general prices for things in absolute terms (as opposed to dollar terms) tend to remain constant.

Another provably false assertion.

Take a look at the price of gold, silver, oil, wheat, corn, and other commodities, and average it out over any 20 year period you want to. Unless you define correlation to be +/-50%, you will find that the normal fluctuations in supply and demand, supply disruptions, market manipulation, etc. far outstrip any correlation to price levels in general.



Do you have any proof for this patently erroneous assertion?

take a look at the charts of various commodities over time.
bob

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