Author Topic: Was slavery really a motive?  (Read 5226 times)

atimetobuild

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Was slavery really a motive?
« on: January 25, 2007, 07:12:49 PM »
I was invited to take this discussion over here, so here I am.  Let us see if we enjoy it.  I also posted a similar thread called The Consent of the Governed a moment ago, found here: http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=5786.0

I am still surprised by how many people, even on gun boards- (even among supporters of the South!) still believe that the war had anything to do with slavery.  Please- I can take all the time in the world and have you not believe me- please read Abe Lincoln's Inaugural Address and Jefferson Davis' Inaugural Address.  Don't you think that if the war was about slavery someone would have at least brought the topic up??  I mean, slavery was not a taboo topic.  It was an accepted institution (albeit not one that was approved of by all).  No, I am not a proponent of slavery, but it was common throughout the world a couple hundred years ago.  No country on earth has ever fought a war to end it, yet it has died (virtually) everywhere.  It should not take any historical proof to realize this, my friends.  A few thoughts to consider:

  • A mere 20th of land owners had slaves.  Slaves and their care were expensive.  Most farm were hand-to-mouth, just as most households are today.

  • The War to Prevent Southern Independence killed TWENTY-FIVE percent of the fighting-age men in the South, not to mention 59,000 civilians purposely butchered by the Northern War-mongers.  Why on earth would all those people have died so their neighbor could keep getting richer?  Bear in mind that the citizenry at the time was not prone to blindly marching off to war just because some politician had an agenda.  These (especially Southerners) were a fiercely independent people.  Conscription was still understood to be wholly unconstitutional.  People fought for what they believed in- there wasn't even such a thing as standing armies (as indeed their should not be, constitutionally and morally).  According to the Founding Fathers- the entire military as we know it is the product of a despotic regime, not the efforts of a free people.

  • The original 13th amendment was an amendment to forever enshrine slavery in the annuls of law.  THIS HAD ALREADY PASSED BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS AND WAS READY FOR THE STATES TO BEGIN RATIFICATION.  From the Dred Scott decision to many other constitutionally-based precedents- SLAVERY WAS NOT IN ANY DANGER!!  There was no need to fight to preserve it.  The only thing that was being talked about in any regular fashion was limiting slavery to the areas it was already being practiced.  NEWSFLASH!  No one wanted to grow cotton up north or out west, anyway.  The Old South is where the cotton-climate is.  Furthermore, before you think that the proponents of that idea were on any moral high ground- they were open about the fact that the idea was to KEEP BLACKS OUT PERIOD.  These were people who wanted to reserve new states for White People- not institute a "freer America."

  • Abe Lincoln was not, and never had been, an abolitionist or even accepting of Blacks as a whole.  He was actually active in a program that sought to deport them to Liberia (created for this purpose), Jamaica, and other countries overseas.  Translation- we want them out of our country.  He had spoken freely in public debates that the White race was superior to the Colored one.  This man was never a champion of justice.  He was a Henry Clay Whig for his entire career that became a part of the new Republican party (read Whigs who took on a new name and kept going [not to be confused with the early-American Whigs who were pro-liberty]) whose platform was PLUNDER.  The whole premise of their platform was protectionist tariffs and "internal improvements" (read taking your money and giving it to their friends to construct inefficient and poorly managed roads, canals and railways- all of which went bankrupt from corruption).  They never gave a damn about slavery until after the war, when they saw its abolition as a tool to further destroy the South during reconstruction.

  • If Lincoln had ANY- repeat ANY- true desire to free slaves- why wouldn't he have done it ANYWHERE he had the legal right to do so?  In regards to the Emancipation Proclamation (which incidentally did not "free" a single slave not already "free" as a result of other "laws"- it was purely a political ploy to hopefully foster "uprisings" among slaves, which moreover never materialized)- it specifically EXCLUDED EACH AND EVERY AREA OF THE COUNTRY UNDER UNION CONTROL- even listing specific parishes here in Louisiana that were under successful occupation.  If the Federal government really wanted to free slaves, don't you think they would have freed AT LEAST ONE slave in an area where they had a legal right to do so?? Think about it.

  • You will not find any wide-spread support for the "War to End Slavery" myth until many MANY years after the war.  That is an idea specifically perpetuated after the fact to justify a atrocious encroachments on the rights of every American.  Just as the feds today are taking your guns and saying "it's for the children," and quoting all kinds of "fact" that you and I know to be ludicrous- they are throwing out reasons why the war was "necessary," because if they admitted that they simply wanted to keep the South in their economy so they could keep plundering it with 50% tariffs that robbed from the South to subsidise Northern industry (which the Republican party still stands for today- one of W's first acts was to institute a 50% steel tariff), there would be ALOT less public support for it.  Lincoln's war may have preserved the nation geographically, but it destroyed it ideologically.  A nation that was built on the "consent of the governed" was now built on the "might of the central government"- the diametric opposite.  Of course the Lincoln cult wants to shield that reality from view, so they obscure it with non-issues.  It is a fact that it was not in any Slave-owners fiduciary interests to secede.  Again- the law of the land protected them!  They had no reason to risk that by plunging into new legal territory.

  • You can look not only to the Inaugural addresses listed above, but to our Confederate constitution to find one of the main reasons for our outrage- protectionist tariffs.  Just as Americans had fought a war to free themselves from exploitative English taxes a few decades earlier, we were ready to fight again (though we should have been allowed to legally leave peacefully) to free ourselves from the same Northern exploitative policies.  The North at the time had double-digit tariffs (which were raised to 50% once Lincoln came into power) that were designed, ostensibly to "protect infant industries."  How it worked was that goods shipped into the US were HEAVILY taxed, in order to deter foreign trade and artificially inflate the prices charged by domestic producers of items (such as steel).  The money, in turn, was given to the politically connected men in those industries (after the Federal fat cats got their cut).  Thus- immorally- "protecting" those industries so they could "develop" (never mind that the free market ensures the success of needed industries).  Our Confederate constitution SPECIFCALLY OUTLAWED such practices because THEY ARE IMMORAL.   (Don't tell your dyed-in-the-wool neocon GOP friends that- they still stand for that today.)  What was happening was that THE FEDS WERE GETTING 80% OF THEIR REVENUE DIRECTLY FROM THE SOUTH AND THEN KEEPING ALL THE MONEY UP NORTH TO FEED THEIR BUDDIES.  We were not stupid and refused to keep playing, so we took our jacks and went home.  That is why they blockaded all our ports as soon as they could muster ships.  We were not charging the world 50% tariffs to trade with us.  Why would the rest of the world keep trading with the North when our tariffs were single-digit "revenue" tariffs?  They WOULDN'T.  The North saw that they were losing all their plunder- so they beat us back into submission- at the cost of 620,000 lives (adjusted for current population, we would be talking 5 million Americans dead by today's percentages!)  Why?  So the federal government could keep plundering.  The war was a repeat of the war that gave us our independence from Britain, and it's loss was a reversal of what we had won not but a few short decades earlier.  Lincoln said as much OUT LOUD when he was inaugurated.  He said "in as much as I am able to collect the tariffs- there will be no invasion."  Think about that one, folks.  That says- pay up or die.  THAT is what the war was all about.  Slavery had NOTHING and I mean NOTHING to do with it.  Granted, abolitionist rightly used it to forward their cause, and I applaud them for it. But for us to believe the same lies from the same federal government that our rights were usurped "for the greater good" is be blind jingoists who continue to accept the constant and continual usurpations going on today without resulting to arms as we should.


This seems to me to be a topic worth discussing.

"ANY SOCIETY WHICH SUPPRESSES THE HERITAGE OF ITS CONQUERED MINORITIES, PREVENTS THEIR HISTORY AND DENIES THEM THEIR SYMBOLS, HAS SEWN THE SEEDS OF ITS OWN DESTRUCTION." -SIR WILLIAM WALLACE 1281 A.D.

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slzy

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2007, 07:25:24 PM »
according to at least one site,cali produced 1,623,000 bales in 2005

atimetobuild

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 07:33:29 PM »
How many in 1855?

natedog

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 08:01:23 PM »
I spent way too much time arguing against this completly irrelevant issue in another thread. I think I'll pass.


It's been 150 years. How much longer will Southerners piss and moan about the Civil War? It almost makes me wish I could travel back in time and alter the course of history so the CSA would win and I wouldn't have to hear about it anymore.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 08:17:22 PM »
Cotton is grown in Egypt as well. SoCal's climate is not that different. Cotton in Cali in 1855 seems feasible to me. Other than that, I either agree or consider feasible the major points of the starting post.

I don't think anybody but a very select few cared about slavery enough to go to war for it. Most union soldiers would say they fought to preserve the Union. Most confed soldiers would say they fought for their state and to get the yankee's out. There certainly were major economic interests pushing and pulling behind the scenes, something even Abe admitted in the end. By modern standards, Abe is amazingly racist and so was his contemporary society. That is why the moral argument in favor of the war is largely a modern rationalization, IMO. Finally, there are positive and negative consequences of centralization. I think it is much more about people getting smarter and voting carefully than it is about federal or confederate power structure.

Gewehr98

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 09:05:01 PM »
Having just left the deep South after a second tour of duty in those parts, I get the distinct impression that folks there would still find it quite alright to enslave and own fellow human beings.  I remember one occasion in a gunshop in Melbourne when a "gentleman" stated he needed a gun because he lived in a bad neighborhood - one full of blacks.  He went on to relate that he really had nothing against blacks, and that everybody should own at least a few of them.  The store owners were quick to agree. I couldn't believe my ears, it made me want to slash the tires on his Confederate-flagged truck as I departed the store posthaste, never to return. 

Internet forums like this are really good for seeing inside the character of those who would post on them.  Myself, I'm keeping a close eye on that Cannoneer critter.  "The South shall rise again!"  My ass.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2007, 02:54:02 AM »
<yawn>
Its been how long since the civil war?  Get over it and save the revisionist history for the liberals.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2007, 03:19:08 AM »
atimetobuild,

We have been over this and over this already.  Check out the links below.  On second thought, if you resurrect any of those threads, you WILL be sent to the workhouse for some treadmill time. 

Quote
I am still surprised by how many people, even on gun boards- (even among supporters of the South!) still believe that the war had anything to do with slavery.
And I am still surprised that intelligent people can study the history of the Civil War and make such assinine statements.  Was the war a simple matter of ending/preserving slavery?  Of course not, but to say it had nothing to do with slavery is just the revisionism of left-wing Yankee college professors, eager to denigrate anything America has ever done. 

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=4581.0

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=5685.0

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=5474.msg82902#msg82902

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=5761.0

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Winston Smith

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2007, 04:00:32 AM »
man, atimetobuild, you better diversify what you post about, otherwise you'll get tagged as a troll
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slzy

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2007, 04:05:14 AM »
don't know how many bales in 1855,but i have to imagine the potential yield at around 1,600,000 bales or so.

MechAg94

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2007, 04:25:20 AM »
Gewehr98, I knew a few people like that growing up.  The difference is most of them just kept to themselves.  However, if you think that attitude (toward blacks or other minorities) is confined to the South, you are dreaming.  Still, I don't think it is close to a majority at all and gets a bit more isolated every generation.  I have heard lots of stories about conditions 50 years ago. 
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Art Eatman

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2007, 04:33:42 AM »
To me, it's a case of, "Of course, slavery was a large part of the deal."  All I've ever said was that there was a lot more to the hostility between the North and the South than just slavery.

I was raised in the South, insofar as Texas is in the South.  What I found odd, back in 1962, was my first-ever observation of active hostility from whites toward blacks.
 
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slzy

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2007, 04:40:47 AM »
the "tariff" gets a lot of play,but the tariff was an extension of the competeing economic systems. it did not stand in a vacuum.

K Frame

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2007, 04:45:10 AM »
"I am still surprised by how many people, even on gun boards- (even among supporters of the South!) still believe that the war had anything to do with slavery."

It baffles me that so many people can look at the historical records left by the Confederacy OR the activities of the Southern legislators in the years leading up to 1861, and say that preservation of slavery wasn't a major reason for the South to go to war.

 

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slzy

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2007, 05:12:09 AM »
as far as Southern men went to fight who owned no slaves,many thousands of Americans went to korea and viet nam who were not in love with the idea. i have read somewhere there were over a million white men in the confederacy,who at the time of lees' surrender had never been under arms. and every southern state had at least one numbered regiment  of white troops with the exception of s. carolina in the union army. it is speculated that s. carolina could have raised one,but these union men joined in georgia or tennessee.

El Tejon

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2007, 05:23:17 AM »
It baffles me that no one, even on gun boards, can wander into a state museum in the South and see that to the South it was all about slavery.  I recommend the one in Austin, very nice museum and they have the petition proudly displayed on the second floor. police
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2007, 06:13:54 AM »
Quote from: Gewehr98
a "gentleman" stated he needed a gun because he lived in a bad neighborhood - one full of blacks.  He went on to relate that he really had nothing against blacks, and that everybody should own at least a few of them.  The store owners were quick to agree. I couldn't believe my ears, it made me want to slash the tires on his Confederate-flagged truck

So, let me get this straight. The "gentleman" voiced his opinion as per 1A. You disagreed but said nothing. Instead, you left quickly and wanted to slash his tires. You are an outspoken manly man and a pillar of freedom, aren't you?

Quote
Internet forums like this are really good for seeing inside the character of those who would post on them. 

Right back at ya.

Quote
Myself, I'm keeping a close eye on that Cannoneer critter. 

If you got something you want to ask me, please go ahead.

Hugh Damright

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2007, 06:15:57 AM »
Of course slavery was an issue. The US Constitution protected the States' right to slavery, Yankees turned against this part of the US Constitution, and that is the blatant treason that justified secession.

atimetobuild

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2007, 08:19:10 AM »
Ok, I see I have fallen into a real high caliber of freedom-fighters here.  I bid you farewell, then- and may they never come for your rights- maybe they'll be nice and limit themselves from here on out. 

"I tried all in my power to avert this war. I saw it coming, for twelve years I worked night and day to prevent it, but I could not. The North was mad and blind; it would not let us govern ourselves, and so the war came, and now it must go on till the last man of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize the musket and fight our battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for Independence, and that, or extermination"
President Jefferson Davis, Confederate States of America


"Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the War; will be impressed by all the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision."
General Pat Cleburne, CSA


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-Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederate States of America


"I saw in States rights the only availing check upon the absolutism of the sovereign will, and secession filled me with hope, not as the destruction but as the redemption of Democracy&. Therefore I deemed that you were fighting the battles of our liberty, our progress, and our civilization, and I mourn for the stake which was lost at Richmond more deeply than I rejoice over that which was saved at Waterloo."
-Lord Acton, in a letter to Robert E Lee right after the war

CAnnoneer

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2007, 08:52:50 AM »
Quote from: atimetobuild
Ok, I see I have fallen into a real high caliber of freedom-fighters here.  I bid you farewell, then

Perhaps, after all,
he was a troll.

Hehehe.

El Tejon

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2007, 09:54:09 AM »
Good bye then, sir.  May they never make us slaves as the Confederate States of America attempted to keep some men slaves.
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

K Frame

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2007, 10:00:23 AM »
Ok, I've finally found what I've been looking for...

Can you identify where these statemens come from, Time?

"For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery."

"The party of Lincoln, called the Republican party, under its present name and organization, is of recent origin. It is admitted to be an anti-slavery party."

"This question was before us. We had acquired a large territory by successful war with Mexico; Congress had to govern it; how, in relation to slavery, was the question then demanding solution. This state of facts gave form and shape to the anti-slavery sentiment throughout the North and the conflict began. Northern anti-slavery men of all parties asserted the right to exclude slavery from the territory by Congressional legislation..."


The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization. By organization, the statement means the Confederate States of America.

It goes on from there...

That's taken from the official record of the State of Georgia, as approved by the legislature on January 29, 1861, as the state's OFFICIAL reasons for separating from the union.


That's just an aberation, right?

Let's travel on down to Ole Miss, home of Jefferson Davis and this sentiment...

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth....These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."

"That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove."

It goes on from there, and in fact, gets kind of ugly.

All of that is from the Journal of the State Convention of 1861.


Still an aberation?

Let's move on to South Carolina....

South Carolina, the original state to call for secession, is actually rather unique in its justification. It mentions slavery frequently, but it also gives an in-depth justification framed around many of the other traditional states rights causes, but near the end of the Convention's statement, it launches into a justification for secession based on the desire to preserve the institution of slavery.

Finally, Texas.

"They (Northern intersts) demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States."

And you've just got to love this statement...

"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."


In these statements, three things are evident...

1. Slavery was a MAJOR reason for Southern secession.

2. The Southern states were more than willing to go to war to force recognition of their secession to form an independent goverment apart from the United States.

3. EVERYONE WAS BRINGING THE SUBJECT OF SLAVERY UP!





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K Frame

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2007, 10:01:17 AM »
the "tariff" gets a lot of play,but the tariff was an extension of the competeing economic systems. it did not stand in a vacuum.

By the time the actual Civil War rolled around, the "tariff" had EXPIRED.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2007, 10:06:54 AM »
Mike, the importance of slavery is all too apparent from the historical record.  I think the denial of this obvious fact can only be explained by two factors:

a) Simple ignorance, in which a person is led astray by someone with an axe to grind.  See part b.
b) Zealous support of the Southern cause that results in an exageration of the degree to which other factors contributed to hostilities, to the total exclusion of the slavery issue as a factor.  Conspiracy thinking is needed to explain away the numerous and prominent evidences of the slavery factor. 
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Art Eatman

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Re: Was slavery really a motive?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2007, 10:12:45 AM »
A view of the war and Lincoln's actions and policies as seen by anti-slavery folks in Europe:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo119.html

Mike, is there any record of the vote count on those "resolutions"?   That is, were the legislatures unanimous, near-unanimous or other?

Art
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