Author Topic: Rant: gun shop owners  (Read 2808 times)

Monkeyleg

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Rant: gun shop owners
« on: January 26, 2007, 01:38:23 PM »
As most people here are aware, I have a website where gun stores can advertise.

I was calling shops today to renew their subscriptions. This job has become much easier in the last year or so, since the "gee, $8.33 a month is a lot for internet advertising" shop owners have pretty much been weeded from the site.

Or so I thought.

I called the owner of a medium to large-size shop in a major metro area. His shop has had over 56,000 people view his page on my site since 4/1/05 (roughly 2600 viewers per month, which means a cost of three-tenths of one cent per view). The previous owner had renewed a year ago, so I had to deal with the new owner today. Because he was the new owner, and probably didn't even know about the page on the site, I offered him six months for free to judge whether the site was working for him.

He called out to a couple of employees, "hey, have any of you guys ever had a customer say they found us on Gunshopfinder.com?"

Nobody seemed to recall the name, so he said he wasn't interested.

I really didn't want to go through the machinations of getting another shop in this city to replace his, so I did something I usually don't: I politely debated him.

I pointed out that his shop has had more page views than almost any other shop on my site. I told him that I have shops that get a third or even fewer page views whose owners have said positively that they've gotten new customers from my site, and thus simple probability would dictate that he's gotten new customers., whether he knows it or not.

He hemmed and hawed at that, so I suggested that he take a look at his page on my site, and I call him back in a week or so, since he had never even seen the page.

But I'm still baffled: I was offering him another six months for free so that he could asess the value, and he had a hard time with that.

I had a similar situation with a shop in Denver a bit over a year ago. It's one of the largest shops in the country, and the shop was getting 3,000 to 4,000 page views per month. When it came time to renew, the owner said no.

I got another Denver shop on the site, albeit a much smaller one, and they just renewed. They love the site, and said they've gotten new customers. But they're getting maybe 1,000 views per month.

Yeah, this post is a rant. But sometimes I just don't understand the owners I'm dealing with.





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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2007, 02:02:32 PM »
Sounds like the old "penny wise pound foolish" thing to me. I run into it all the time. $8.33 a month sounds like a steal to me. Have you ever paid for a Yellow Page ad?  rolleyes
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2007, 02:16:50 PM »
When it comes to money and advertising people get stupid.  Fast.

There are agents in my office that will spend a fortune on pencils, pens, fridge magnets, etc. because they are cheap.  Not a single one can make a substantial argument that the p&p have enhanced them in any way.  Yet the same people will not spend a dime on internet pages even though we have the data showing that over 80% of people interested in buying/selling (and don't already have an agent) hit the internet first.

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crt360

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2007, 02:22:42 PM »
I'd be more than happy to pay you $8.33 for that kind of exposure.  Some people are slow in the head.

We pay for yellow pages advertising in three different directories.  "Hi, this is Ben Dover from XY&Z yellow pages, when can you meet to discuss your new ad?"   sad
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2007, 02:40:45 PM »
Although the deal sounded very good, I might have done the same thing.  When a stranger approaches me with a new idea and asks for a decision right away, I'll usually decline.  I'd rather have time to make up my mind and do things on my own schedule.  I also hate talking on the phone and will usually say no thanks just to conclude the conversation. 

Of course, I'd make a terrible entepreneur.  Maybe he won't last long.  Smiley
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AJ Dual

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2007, 03:42:24 PM »
I'm thinking that as new owner, who knew nothing of gunshopfinder.com, he was leery he was being sold something "he already had".

Just like shady magazine offers that want you to "renew", or when a magazine just shows up one day and they send you the bill.

I'd say it was healthy skepticisim, and not "butheaddedness", and it's everyone else's "butheaddedness" that's giving you a short fuse with this guy.
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Thor

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2007, 04:38:48 PM »
Maybe part of the problem is that the people that found his shop through your site don't bother to mention that fact?? If they did, then he'd be all for it!! Hell, one customer per month would cover that expense.
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brimic

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2007, 05:09:00 PM »
Quote
I had a similar situation with a shop in Denver a bit over a year ago. It's one of the largest shops in the country, and the shop was getting 3,000 to 4,000 page views per month. When it came time to renew, the owner said no.

I got another Denver shop on the site, albeit a much smaller one, and they just renewed. They love the site, and said they've gotten new customers. But they're getting maybe 1,000 views per month.

The problem should be self-correcting.

A would-be gunowner who doesn't know of any gunshops stumbles across your site and sees gunshops X,Y, and Z listed in their city. The would-be gun buyer will probably heck them all out, or possibly check out the one closest to their house, or the first one on the list on the website, or closest to the drive to their workplace. If 'X' gunshop decided to not re-up his advertising contract, only Y and Z would be lister for the first time buyer to see. Of course gunshop 'X' can make up for the loss of business by upping the price of their 50 rd boxes of 9mm WWB ammo from $15 to $18, but wil probably see their business and sales slip even more.
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2007, 05:23:18 PM »
Quote
...I'm still baffled: I was offering him another six months for free so that he could asess the value, and he had a hard time with that.

I work in a combination indoor range and gun shop. We just squandered somewhere between $5,000 and $6,000 on advertising in a discount book that brought in no new business. I told people it would prove a waste of money, and it did. I have a hunch they'd have jumped into the morass still more quickly and energetically if the price tag had been still higher: obviously, they'd have been getting more for their money, right?

Lots of gun shops are run by hobbyists with no business sense whatever.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2007, 05:46:32 PM »
Fistful, AJ: the previous owner who had paid to renew is now one of the employees. So, it's not as though my site was anything new to the previous owner.

As for the new owner, I offered him six free months precisely because I know there are a lot of scams out there, and I wanted to demonstrate to him that my offer is not a scam.

Standing Wolf, I've heard that point before. For some stores, the price seems to be so low that they don't think it will work. These same shops are paying hundreds of dolars a month to be in online yellow pages, and other directories, and getting nothing out of it.

It's reached the point where I get on average at least one new shop emailing me every day to be on the site. One owner told me that, wherever she went on the internet, she found my site. And, so, she figured she'd better be on the site if she wanted the most exposure for the fewest dollars.

I can understand a one-man shop in the middle of nowhere not getting any response off my site (although I have plenty of shops meeting that description who have done well by being on my site).

Perhaps it boils down to some of the largest shops having an attitude problem: they have so many customers that they don't notice if they get a few more, or lose a few more.

Ah, well. There's other shops in these cities, and the owners of those shops want to win over the customers from the Big Boys. Maybe it's those in-between shops that I should concentrate on.


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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2007, 06:35:24 PM »
From your description, I gathered that he had never heard of the site and knew nothing about it. 

Quote
Because he was the new owner, and probably didn't even know about the page on the site, I offered him six months for free to judge whether the site was working for him.

He called out to a couple of employees, "hey, have any of you guys ever had a customer say they found us on Gunshopfinder.com?"

Nobody seemed to recall the name, so he said he wasn't interested.

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The Rabbi

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2007, 02:19:42 PM »
I'm a gun shop owner and have never heard of the site.  I advertise on the internet (and it is expensive) but I dont have an ad in the Yellow Pages.  I usually ask my customers how they heard about me.
About 70% found me just by driving by.
About 10% found me either on fora like this or THR or something.
About 10% come from recommendations, especially from the pawn shop about 2 miles away or from their friends who have shopped with me.
About 10% from looking on line, either for a transfer dealer through GB, AA, or the like or from my internet ad.
I see the hits the ad generates.  But I dont care about hits on the web site.  I dont care about phone calls.  I dont care about people stopping in.  The bottom line is I care about the money people spend in the shop and whether the money I am spending on advertising is translating into more money going into the register or not.  That sounds harsh and some retail Nimrod will point out that if people arent hitting, calling, dropping in, they wont be buying either.  But at the end of the day the only evaluation of whether the advertising is effective or not is whether it translates into more sales.  And the jury is still out on that.
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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2007, 07:29:46 PM »
But at the end of the day the only evaluation of whether the advertising is effective or not is whether it translates into more sales.  And the jury is still out on that.

I'd argue that the jury is still out on that as far as radio/TV ads go.  Especially for already well known products such as the colas.

The various pop-up ads have shown this, people learn to ignore ads, so they make them more visible, which after a point makes them more annoying and people less likely to buy your product.  I've decided against buying X10 stuff for just that reason.

Stand_watie

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2007, 07:56:40 PM »
Monkeyleg. I'm a skeptical consumer of "free" things myself. The reason being that all of my adult life I've had people attempt to bill me for services I didn't want.

Your "free six months" would sound like a great deal to my wife. To me, they'd sound like yet another bill in the mail because they claimed I forgot to "cancel" my subscription.

I have no idea if your billing works this way or not, but even if it doesn't you are working against the meme of that "selling" method.

If you're not doing this already, I'd suggest that for new customers like that, that you tell them that they will not be liable for a plugged nickel to you, unless they sign on the dotted line, requesting your service, and mail it back to you after their free six months has expired.

I'd also suggest you figure out a way to get customers referred by your site to mention the referral.

Just one idea. A printable map to the gunshop with "GUNSHOPFINDER.COM" printed top/center on it, with a "shopping list" with blanks on it for the customer to write down what they want to pick up....etc. plenty of customers will leave their lists/maps laying on the shop checkout counter on their way out the door....
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2007, 08:19:16 PM »
Rabbi, what you've outlined is pretty much my sales pitch: I'll give the shop owner six months for free to determine if my site is bringing in enough new customers and purchases to justify the $8.33 a month cost.

If a shop owner tells me that he doesn't think the site has done anything for him, then I say "thank you for trying out our service." I'm always extra-polite with the goodbye, since many shop owners reconsider and email me back a few days after I send them their notice that they've been dropped, and ask that I put them back on the site.

Here's my problem. Not yours, but mine: just a fraction of people who see shop's pages on my site remember to mention my shop's name when they go in to buy. After all, how many people coming running into your store shouting, "I saw your ad in the Yellow Pages!"

But, and maybe I'm assuming too much, the shop owners think that their $300 to $600 Yellow Pages ads are paying off. Maybe, maybe not. The Yellow Pages cannot provide a retail owner with any sort of  accurate number of people who have viewed the store's ad.

I can. I can also tell the shop owner how many emails he's received from people asking this or that question. While I can certainly understand why many shop owners don't want to bother answering those emails, the number is a better indication of the level of interest in the shop that comes from my site than anything the Yellow Pages can provide.

In the end, though, my site works. Not for every shop, but for the majority of shops that do the six-month trial.

Call Larry at Pontotoc American Arms in Mississippi. Call Jack at Butt's Gun Sales in Billings, MT. Call Jerry at Far West Shooting & Supply in Santa Barbara, CA. I could give you a list a mile long of shop owners who tried the trial subscription, didn't think it would work, and were pleasantly surprised that it did bring them new customers.

My site is doing exactly what it was intended to do, it's bringing in almost exactly the number of visitors I predicted for 2006, and will bring in the number of visitors I've predicted
for 2007. After spending over five years learning how to get first-page search engine results, I've also learned how to predict traffic.

"I see the hits the ad generates.  But I dont care about hits on the web site.  I dont care about phone calls.  I dont care about people stopping in.  The bottom line is I care about the money people spend in the shop and whether the money I am spending on advertising is translating into more money going into the register or not.  That sounds harsh and some retail Nimrod will point out that if people arent hitting, calling, dropping in, they wont be buying either.  But at the end of the day the only evaluation of whether the advertising is effective or not is whether it translates into more sales.  And the jury is still out on that."

Not harsh at all. But, as I've explained to many a shop owner, my job is to deliver the customer to the shop, whether via phone, email, or in person. After that, making the sale is beyond my physical capabilities.

That's advertising. And how you conduct your business is none of my business. If you've found a solution that works for you, I'm not here to argue. Having spent large percentages of my annual gross sales on advertising and promotions since 1987, I congratulate you if you can do well with spending less.

My rant above was about a shop in a well-known metro area that is getting three, four or even more times more views than most other shops on my site. Yet the owner doesn't believe he's getting any new business. Simple mathematics, the laws of probability, or any other formula you want to apply says he's wrong, and that he has received new customers.

I know that there's another shop in that metro area that wants to dominate the market, and take out the shop owner who's giving me an argument right now. If I have the time, I'll seek out that shop. Or that shop owner will contact me.

Sorry for being so long-winded in this post, but I'd like to provide an example.

There are two major gun stores in the Milwaukee area right now. One has been around since the mid-1980's, and was once the largest gun store in the state. The other was a smaller shop in terms of inventory, until my friend bought the shop in 2000.

My friend did everything right: advertising, expanding the selection of guns and accessories, upgrading the range to make it the best in the state, and hiring sales people who knew what they were talking about, and who knew how to talk  to every level of customer.

That "biggest" gun shop? They got an attitude. They got to be rude, even to me (and I was one of their best customers, as well as one of their biggest cheerleaders). Their inventory shrunk. Their range deteriorated.

Well, I guess the little fish swallowed the big shark, yes?

As for your not being able to find my site, do a Google search on "New York gun shops," or "Tennessee gun shops," or "Utah gun shops," or pretty much any other state you'd like to pick. Or just do a Google search for "gun shops" or "gun stores."

Or do a Google search for "Remington shotguns," or "Remington rifles," or "Kimber pistols," or "Sigarms pistols," or "HK Pistols," or "Springfield Armory pistols," or "Springfield Armory rifles," or "Smith and Wesson Revolvers," or "Henry Rifles," or "Marlin rifles," or any other brand or model that I feature on my site.

Rabbi, I've spent over five years learning Search Engine Optimization (SEO). I've become extremely good at it. Enough so that hosting companies have hired me freelance for them, SEO'ing their client's sites. They charge their clients as much as $5000 a month for those services.

And that's the biggest point that's lost on the shop owners I've described. Yes, they may have their own websites. Whoopee. If those sites can't be found by searching for any terms except the store name, then the shop owner might as well put up a small billboard in the middle of Lake Superior.

I provide the equivalent of thousands of dollars a month in SEO services that precious few shops can afford, full-page internet advertising, thousands of pages of models of guns and accessories for which my site visitors can search by, and more.

After having read all of the above that I've posted about my site, I feel much better now. Wink I offer a service that no other gun-related site does, and it works.

My usual offer to new subscribers is a free six-month trial. However, for owners or managers of gun shops who are THR/TFL/APS members, I've been offering a free one-year trial.

Rabbi, I didn't know you owned a gun store. Had I known, I would have extended that offer to you. My apologies. PM me if you'd like to try it out.

If 70% or more of my subscribers pay to renew, and I don't do "hard sell," what does that tell you?


Monkeyleg

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2007, 09:23:12 PM »
Stand_watie, I've had many shop owners tell me that they'll try out my free offer because I sound sincere on the phone, which I am.

I also tell them that they will not receive a bill, invoice, or anything else binding. I tell them that, at the end of the six-month trial, they'll get a phone call from me, asking how they like the service. If they don't think it's done anything for them, fine. If they like it, that's fine, too.

I've lived my life on gentlemen's handshake agreements. Sometimes I've been shafted, but I've never shafted anybody else.

What I need to do, and have been procrastinating on, is putting up a Testimonials page. There are so many owners of shops--large and small--who have told me how happy they are with my service that I need to get that going right away.

But I'm still bugged by my original question: how can Jack at Butt's Gun Sales in Billings, MT have roughly 750 page views per month, and get new customers, yet Big Gun Shop in Big City, USA gets over 2600 page views per month, and not think that he's getting any new customers at all?

Unfortunately, there is no way to persuade people to mention Gunshopfinder.com when they go into a store. I did a "$500 gun store shopping spree" contest back in 2005. All somebody had to do was print out the page from one of my shops, go to the store, have a clerk sign, and mail it in.

On every gun forum, I heard "$500 is peanuts."

To those in the peanut gallery, their odds of winning were just 1:4. Sad

I get roughly 200,000 visitors a month, and get 800,000 to over 1,000,000 page views per month. For those who are really into specs, my bandwidth is over 50 GB per month (which drives my hosting company nuts).

For a forum like THR or AR15.com, that wouldn't be much. But for a site like mine, that's big traffic. My site outranks many of the major gun manufacturers in terms of traffic. I even beat them out in the search engine results.

Am I patting myself on the back? You bet. I have to do that once in awhile, or I'd go insane.

Again, I have a service that works.

It works the same way that sites for golf courses work. I started looking at golf course sites back in 2003: they have photos of every green, the maps of the grades and slopes or whatever it is that golfers care about for every green, photos of the restaurant, and more. A golfer could book his tee-time online, book a party, or just about anything else.

That takes a whole team of database specialists to create such a site, and a team to keep it going.

Those golf courses aren't paying $8.33 a month to be on those sites. They're paying thousands a year.

So, I thought, why shouldn't gun shops be able to do the same thing?

Fortunately for me, most of the gun shops I get on my site see it working. But there's still a whole bunch of shop owners who resent the internet, hate computers, think that they can stave off the Cabela's and the Sportsmen's Warehouse and other box stores for a few more months, rely on their old customers, spit in the faces of new customers, and still stay in business.

I should have pursued golf courses. But, then, I don't play golf. Wink









The Rabbi

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2007, 11:48:10 PM »
Monkey,
You're right: the only thing advertising can do is drive people to the store.  After that it is the store's responsibility.  They can spend thousands of dollars a month on advertising but if their prices are high, their selection stinks, and their clerks are morons, it won't help.
As for your recalcitrant customer, if he drops you he will see sales decline.  If he sees that he will evaluate what he is doing differently and come back.  Or he won't.  THere is no shortage of people making idiotic wrong decisions in business.  I worked at what I thought was the most succesful gun shop in Nashville.  Every time I went in there customers were 3 deep at the counter.  I think in a sales space of like 500 sf they were doing over $1M in sales every year.
Then the owner got in trouble for selling stolen guns and got a Federally-paid holiday and had to sell the store.  New management was clueless and within a couple of years the shop went bust.  I learned a lot about what not to do when I worked there.
Currently I am advertising with CitySearch. It isnt cheap (over $100/mo), but it runs about what a Yellow Pages ad would cost.  Again, I dont know whether it is effective (i.e. I am making more money advertising there than I am spending) or not.  I see the number of hits I get.  I also see how I show up when I Google "gun shop Nashville".  But probably in 6 months I will evaluate this and make a decision to keep advertising there or drop it.
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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2007, 02:50:37 AM »
When we were advertising our old Carvel store on the radio or in the paper we'd always include "Mention this ad and get 5% off your purchase" or 5$ off whatever. Or we'd make the newspaper ad a coupon. This way we'd be able to track how much business the ads were generating. You might try that angle in your sales pitch. Unfortunately, in my new endeavors I know I've spent a few thou over the last few years on non productive advertising. Like Rabbi, whenever I hear from a new customer I try to remember to ask how they heard about me. Usually it's word of mouth or the Yellow pages but those are not in the "big" yellow pages, I advertise in the local phone book. MUCH cheaper. I don't have a website (although I'm entertaining the idea of getting one) and I don't advertise anywhere else.
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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2007, 01:18:52 PM »
hell, i'd pay you if you were 10 bucks a month.

sometimes there's people that just don't get it.

~tmm

Thor

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2007, 02:13:29 PM »
When I was a Navy Recruiter, we almost ALWAYS asked where they found our information. Some were from mail outs, some were from TV ads, some were from school visits, some were from other people in the Delayed Entry Program and a very few were from us recruiters posting our areas. (This was pre- public internet) Perhaps you could entice your subscribers to ask where their shop was discovered by some means?? (discounts on future services, etc) I don't know where the answer may lie. I HAVE used gunshopfinder in the past, nobody bothered to ask me.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2007, 06:10:12 PM »
Thor, one problem is that people don't remember where they saw the shop.

Many of the shops on my site have email links on their pages.

I also have 1,000+ pages of individual models of guns from various manufacturers.

Everytime someone emails a gun store from my site, I get a copy of the email. The subject line reads, "From your page on Gunshopfinder.com."

I can't tell you the number of times I've seen emails come through from somebody who was on my site and viewing, say, an HK USP, finds a shop near them, and uses the shop's email address on the page. And then, in the body of the email, the person says "I found your store on HK's website."

The person didn't know that he was on my site, and not HK's.

When dealing with a skeptical gun store owner, this is the most difficult part of my job. I can't prove that he has seen new customers (other than looking at the emails he's received), and he can't prove that he hasn't. Of course, as I said earlier, the folks from the Yellow Pages can't give him any information at all, yet the shop owners continue to spend hundreds of dollars per month on Yellow Pages ads.

So, I guess I just have to be satisfied with the store owners who either have had solid confirmation of my site's success for them, or those who realize that the exposure is helping their business even if they can't quantify it, and just accept the fact that there are owners of shops large and small who see $8.33 a month as too much money.

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2007, 06:21:50 PM »
I hate to say it, because I don't run a business, so this is just my uneducated opinion, but your prices seem way, way too low.  What's that work out to, $100 a year?  When gunshops are used to paying that much per month, or more, for a yellow pages ad?

I mean, think about it in gun terms.  You've got a $100 1911 and a $1200 1911.  Is any amount of convincing in the world going to make even one person think that the $100 gun is anywhere near as good as the $1200 one?  Sure, people may complain that $1200 is too much, but it's still in the ballpark of what you'd expect to pay for a really nice one.  Most people wouldn't even consider the $100 one because something that cheap can't be any good at all, can it?

Just my thoughts, though.

Ron

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2007, 06:23:38 PM »
Dick, I sent you a PM a few days ago.

Do you have any printed literature or promotional material?

I actually know quite a few people at a some of the Chicagoland gunshops.

Stand_watie

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2007, 06:40:15 PM »
Stand_watie, I've had many shop owners tell me that they'll try out my free offer because I sound sincere on the phone, which I am.

I also tell them that they will not receive a bill, invoice, or anything else binding. I tell them that, at the end of the six-month trial, they'll get a phone call from me, asking how they like the service. If they don't think it's done anything for them, fine. If they like it, that's fine, too....

As a consumer, if I believe that you're trustworthy (obviously I believe 'you' personally are trustworthy, I mean "if I believe the universal 'you' is trustworthy", the offer as you have presented it is a great deal. If I were a gun store owner I'd take you up on it.

I think I'll check out "the armory" in Mesquite, and  "Lakeside gun sales" in Frankston and I'll mention I heard about them from "gunshopfinder.com".
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

Monkeyleg

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Re: Rant: gun shop owners
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2007, 12:24:47 PM »
Vodka7, I often think the price is too low as well. However, there are some very small shops on my site for whose owners $100 is a lot of money. There's others (McBride's in Austin, Big Buck Sports in MS, etc) who probably spend $100 a day ordering in pizzas for the staff.

The owner of one small shop in a southern state was having a hard time, and I told him to send me $10 at a time whenever he could afford it. A couple of months later, his business picked up and he paid the $100 in full. He's been on the site for a long time, and I really like the guy. And my site is bringing him the new customers he needs. If my price was higher, he wouldn't be able to afford it.

Ron, I don't have any printed material. Maybe I should, but I don't get any requests for such. I appreciate your offer, though.

Stand_Waitie, I have no idea what Lakeside Gun Sales is like, other  than what the owner told me. I'd be anxious to hear your opinion.